Asking for challenge suggestions, with details

[daru2707]

Hello, first of all I'd like to say that I know that there are many topics similar to this one, but I got through many of them ( on this forum too ) and I noticed one important thing - these matters are VERY individual and they depend strongly on the person who is asking for advice. As a proof - I haven't truly found my answers yet

So I would like you to tell me what would you recommend for me to play, knowing that :

( and it's going to be long, but I'm doing it to give you a better idea of what dwells in my mind and hands, and hopefully help you to help me )

1) I'm 23 yo, I started playing piano when I was like 6 or 7, but I quit at the age of 15-ish for several years ( I got bored ). I returned to piano playing around 3 years ago, infinitely inspired by my friend, who introduced me to Rachmaninoff's repertoire . So it's really hard to say what is my current level, but here comes number two :

2) I returned to playing piano with some stuff like River flows in you , then I got inspired by Kyle Landry ( famous youtuber, you probably know him ) and played his arrangement of Passion by Utada Hikaru. It was quite a success, though I never got it perfectly nailed ( lack of time and will ).
Then as I stated before - Rachmaninoff blew my mind. So I picked up Prelude in C# minor. It was a B to sight-read, but eventually I got it to sound satisfying. The only part that gave me trouble was of course Agitato - but mainly because I don't devote much time to piano playing ( I'm studying, sometimes working etc. ). I have trouble with those rapidly alternating chords ( they are uneven at times ) and sometimes with maintaining the melody line in the triplets. But I feel it's only a matter of time until I get it nailed.
Next I picked up Rachmaninoff's Elegie - and it went well until I stopped in the middle of it ( lack of time + lazyness - I'm an astrological LION ). Here I had trouble with keeping the bassline silent. But eventually I feel I will manage this piece, if I find the will to return to it, because :
I started Rachmaninoff's Prelude op. 23 no 5 ! And that piece is giving me more serious trouble. But that's mainly because my piano is incredibly dull and the keys are heavy to press - that results in real pain in the middle, lyrical section. Even though it's not as hard to play as I thought, I need to practise that to sound clear. Then of course I have trouble with the famous theme at page 2 - quick thick chords ( missing them notes ugh.. ). But I feel that it's also a matter of time, because there are attempts when I get it almost right. Can't figure out the right pedalling though.
I also started Rachmaninoff's Prelude op. 32 no 10 and it's fairly easy, but I lost the devotion because of 23/5 ... I got to page 4 and so far didn't have trouble ( except making the repeated chords sound not too heavy - working on it )
Too much Rachmaninoff, so I started practising Chopin's Heroic Polonaise op. 53. It's also not that hard as I thought, but I'm scared of those fast alternating octaves, it might be a huge obstacle. I'm working on it with lots of encouragement, because I really love the piece.

And besides those mentioned, I started sight-reading pieces that are one of my favourites of all time. And I don't plan finishing them any soon, just want to practise them a lot, even if it is going to take years to get them right. Those are : Rachmaninoff's Moment Musicaux 4, Scriabin's Etude op. 8 no 12, Scriabin's Etude op. 42 no 5. But those are plans for the future, as I feel these pieces are currently above my level ( 8/12 feels the most doable though ).

3) Now what do I like? Rachmaninoff obviously, but I'm familiar with many of his works. Not every single one of course. I absolutely LOVE the dramatic mood of some Scriabin's pieces. Especially in Etude 8/12, and the ending of 42/5 - that final descending passage - there's that unique dramatic beauty, as if something scary or terrifying was happening. I also started enjoying Chopin , but not everything - for example I tend to get bored with his slower pieces like nocturnes ( they ARE beautiful ! but I kinda like more "punch" - like Rachmaninoff ). I love Chopin's Scherzo's though, but they are crazy difficult. I also enjoy Ravel's works, for their fluidity and mysterious mood. But the combination of dramatism and beauty gets me the most ( Scriabin's 8/12 once more as my absolute favourite in this case ).

Allright, let's end this tale - now you know a little about my preferences and abilities :p

So tell me what else would you recommend for me? Any help greatly appreciated

[49410enrique]

listing pieces you've 'played' doesn't help me much, i would have to hear your actual progress on them to make a better assesment, you listed some incredibly difficult works so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you must have some extremlely good inate/natural talent (though your comments on what you struggle with gives me pause for concern), be that as it may i'll still try to give your ear something new to consider.

this work is quite pretty, and oozes w/ romantic lyrical qualties...
Alexander Glazunov Op.31 Etude no.2 Allegro

[49410enrique]

my bad

[octavius_trillson]

Your piano history is very similar to mine, and the pieces which renewed your interest are virtually the same as the ones which renewed mine. Suffice to say we are similar but judging from your post I'd say I'm at a slightly more advanced stage than you, which is a good thing because I can warn you of some of the pitfalls I have fallen headlong into on my journey.

I, and I'm certain you too, aim to play at a very high level, I want to play it like I hear it, which is like the concert pianist. Now it's taken me 12 years to start to understand how to actually achieve this. I'm not an expert but these are the vitals: First off you should get a teacher, or find someone more experienced to sit with and go through things like fingering, efficient hand motions and musical subtleties in the piece. I've found these things, when neglected, have impeded my progress the most in any one piece. Once you can sight-read a piece you should aim to pick up speed rather fast to about half as fast as you intend to play it. So essentially your 'slow practice', something you spend the most time doing, is actually rather quick. Never sacrifice speed for accuracy, at some point you will have to correct these errors and I assure you, it's easier to do this at the earliest possible stage.

I've always made a point to pick one extremely challenging piece (relative to my own abilities) and practice this almost everyday for several years. I practice this piece alongside my other 'easier' projects. I find this helps my technique immensely and I see the benefits mount each consecutive day. If you choose to do this make sure you reallly love the piece you pick to be your challenge because you are going to devote an enormous amount of time and effort to it's perfection.

Well.....my suggestions then, most are on youtube, I've highlighted the easier ones and I think you will like the others. I've also specified where one pianist's recording stood out above all the rest:

Sergei Rachmaninoff:
Prelude in G Sharp Minor
Prelude Op.23 No.7
Etudes Tableaux Op.35 No.5
Etudes Tableaux Op.39 No.6
Etudes Tableaux Op.33 No.4 Vladimir Ashkenazy's recording
Piano Sonata No.1 Berevovsky's recording

Sergey Prokofiev:
Etudes Op.2 No.4
La Suggestion Diabolique Gavrilov's recording
Toccata in D Minor Claire Huangci's recording

Frederic Chopin:
Nocturne Op.27 No.2
Etudes Op.10 No.1
Etudes Op.10 No.4
Etude Op.10 No.12 “Revolutionary”
Etudes Op.25 No.5 “Wrong Note”
Etudes Op.25 No.11 “Winter Wind”
Ballade No.1 in G Minor Janusz Olegniczak's recording
Ballade No.4
Grand Pollonaise Brillainte


Nikolai Medtner:
Skaza Op.20 No.1
Slaza Op.20 No.2 “Campanella” Hamelin or Berezovsky's recording
Four Fairy Tales Op.35 No.4
Skaza Op.8 No.2 Sandro Russo's recroding
Skaza Op.51 1
Danza Silvestra
Sonata Tragica Earl Wild's recording
Sonata Reminiscenza
Sonata in F Minor
Night Wind Sonata

Claude Debussy:
Claire De Lune “Moonlight”
Valse Romantique

Maurice Ravel:
Toccata

Leopold Godowsky:
Passacaglia on Schubert’s Unfinished Symphony
Chopin-Godowsky Etude No.43
Lully-Godowsky Gigue Emil Gilels' recording

Milly Balakirev:
Islamey “An Oriental Fantasy” Try and find Gavrilov's recording

Ludwig van Beethoven:
Piano Sonata No.14 in C Minor “Moonlight”
Piano Sonata in D Minor Op.31 No.2 “Tempest” Try and find Stephen Kovacevich's recording

Charles Valentin Alkan:
Douze études dans tous les tons mineurs: No.12 Le Festin d’Esope Hamelin's recording
Douze études dans tous les tons majeurs: Op.35 No.7: Le Incendie au Village Voisin
Douze études dans tous les tons majeurs: Le Preux “The Knight”

Franz Liszt:
La Romanesca
Liebestraum “Love’s Dream”
Transcendental Etudes: No.10 “Appasionato” Berezovsky's recording
Trois Etudes de Concerts: No.3Un Sospiro “A sigh”
Transcendental Etudes: No.11 “Harmonies du Soir” Berezovsky's recording
Etude’s de Execution Transcendente de Nicolo Paganini No.3 La Campanella Alicia de la Rocha's recording
Transcendental Etudes: No.4 “Mazeppa” Berezovsky's recording
Transcendental Etudes: No 2 Berezovsky's recording
Transcendental Etudes: No.8 “Wilde Jagd” Berezovsky's recording
Transcendental Etudes: No.12 “La Chasse Neige” Berezovsky's recording
Hungarian Rhapsody No.12 Evgeny Kissin's recording
Hungarian Rhapsody No.2
Hungarian Rhapsody No.6
Hungarian Rhapsody No.15 “Rakoczy March”
Paraphrase after Ernani (Verdi-Liszt)
Les Jeux d’eau a la Villa d’Este
Transcendental Etude No.5 “Feux Follets” Berezovsky's recording
Valse Infernale: Reminiscences De Robert Le Diable Earl Wild's Recording
Mephisto Waltz No.1 Berezovsky's recording
Totentanz for Piano Solo
Mozart-Liszt-Don Juan Paraphrase Lang Lang's recording
Auber-Liszt La Muette de Portici
Soirees Musicales L’Invito Bolero
Der Doppelganger
Die Stadt

[octavius_trillson]

this work is quite pretty, and oozes w/ romantic lyrical qualties...
Alexander Glazunov Op.31 Etude no.2 Allegro

Lovely piece, I'm off to rediscover Glazunov now

[costicina]

Why, why piano literature is so rich of beautiful & impossible pieces, why I don't have three or more  lifes to dedicate to all the things that are worth living for? 

[49410enrique]

Why, why piano literature is so rich of beautiful & impossible pieces, why I don't have three or more  lifes to dedicate to all the things that are worth living for? 

many of us feel that way....

here's another one to add to the list above and i guess also to your frustration, i honestly did not know this little gem existed until i happened across it late last night quite by accident while browsing used /vintage scores for sale on ebay.

this one actually reminds me a bit of La Suggestion Diabolique in spots
from his set of pieces in Op 52, this is the Scherzo No 6

[octavius_trillson]

It reminds me of a Moszkowski Etude Op.76 No.2

Why, why piano literature is so rich of beautiful & impossible pieces, why I don't have three or more  lifes to dedicate to all the things that are worth living for?  

It's like all the pieces are a galaxy of stars and we are in our little spaceships trying to get to them, and our spaceships can only go so fast, so we just look at them with our telescopes and wonder, and say wow I'll go there next.........need faster spaceships.

[costicina]

Thank you, Enrique! Of course, I didn't know the piece. It seems that the Scherzo form suited particularly well Prokofiev's genius: this is even better than my beloved op 12 (I post this for the 10th time, but I do love this performance!!!)

[daru2707]

Thank you very much for reading my big post !

@ Octavius - I was out all day so I didn't have the time to listen to all your suggestions, but I'll certainly do so tomorrow or later tonight

And I read your suggestions about learning the pieces. To be honest I tend to get really impatient and put hands together very soon, and speed up also soon. But the results are sometimes good, sometimes bad. Trouble is I'm doing it way before I sight-read the whole piece ( impatient again ... ). Also I like figuring out fingerings on my own, and I don't devote much time to practising difficult parts in various ways ( slowly, different tempos, staccatto etc. ). That's why it takes me quite long to get a piece to sound nicely. But I'm somehow comfortable with the way I'm training, partly beause I don't have much time for playing piano. Could it be affecting my ability somehow? I mean, do my methods do any wrong to my hands?  I once read that bad practising methods can lead to a regress rather than progress in skills. I hope it's not really true  :]

@ Enrique - that etude is really amazing! You hit my taste pretty well, sounds quite difficult though.

I know it would be better if I posted a recording, but I don't have a nice tool to do it at the moment. Hopefully I'll get one as soon as I save some cash and post something on the forums

@ Costicina - I also wish I had more lifes and that a day was 80 hours long instead of the small 24 hours   and I think I'll dig into Prokofiev's works more too

[octavius_trillson]

I hope you enjoyed some of the pieces

To be honest I tend to get really impatient and put hands together very soon, and speed up also soon. But the results are sometimes good, sometimes bad. Trouble is I'm doing it way before I sight-read the whole piece

I'm not an expert but I can answer from my own experience.

I'm sure it's fine to learn individual sections before you learn the whole piece, I actually do that quite abit, especially with longer works. It's just you might have some issues with tempo when you put the whole thing together. That is to say when you play the bits you know better you'll probably tend to play them faster than the ones you've had less practice with. If you don't mind tempo inconsistencies then that's probably fine, as only people familiar with the piece/musicians with a discerning ear would be able to point that out. If you really want to play in tempo consider getting a metronome. It all depends on your audience I suppose.

I'm not really sure about the hands together issue. My method is always to practice hands separate but my teacher has told me this isn't always necessary and you can achieve the same result in a third of the time (assuming it takes the same amount of time for RH LH and HT). I'm not sure about that then.

Also I like figuring out fingerings on my own, and I don't devote much time to practising difficult parts in various ways ( slowly, different tempos, staccatto etc. ). That's why it takes me quite long to get a piece to sound nicely.

When I try to figure out fingerings on my own I tend to neglect my fourth finger, my third usually suffices, but sometimes using the fourth will place the least strain on the hand, or facilitate the most comfortable transition to the next chord/note. Being comfortable/having no tension in the hands is an important aid to speed, in fact some pieces are nigh on impossible to play with tension in the hands. What happens is that you will tire out too quickly and/or injure yourself.

Slow practice and accuracy tend to go hand in hand. If you practice too fast too early without having properly sight-read the music you will probably teach yourself mistakes (wrong notes etc), and these can be a nightmare to unlearn. Even when you think you have corrected the problem, your brain might revert to the wrong method again, because that's what it has been conditioned to play.

I don't spend any time practicing one section using various rhythms or playing a staccato section legato and vice versa, I'm just not convinced of the benefit. I practice difficult sections over and over in the same way, the way it is written on the score, and I meet with success most of the time.

Hope I've helped. Good luck fellow Leo.

[daru2707]

Actually that helped a lot, because I forgot that I might be learning mistakes. So today I slowed down a bit and practised a part many times, also without any changes in tempo or any else, and it felt very comfortable. I might go back to being patient with playing,  so your advice caused a breaking point in my training 

So thanks and good luck to you too!

By the way, you made me love Medtner, as well as many other pieces from the ones you listed 

[octavius_trillson]

 

You give me too much credit, it was Medtner that made you love Medtner, my part in it all was much smaller.