Rotation of arm

[decemberbell]

One of my friend who is studying in Australia taught me rotation of arm when playing. She said the professor asked them to always rotate their arm when hitting a note. What is the purpose? Making the note sounds better?

[miriamko]

It would be more like a rotation of the wrist with support from the elbow. It is an excellent movement when you you want to avoid hearing the hammer against the strings or for ultimate legato. Because the finger does not enter the key directly you will get a warmer sound and your arms and hands will always be relaxed. If you want a more percussive sound or if you are playing pieces which require finger dexterity and clarity you would use the movement sparingly (the end of phrases etc.).

[decemberbell]

Absolutely. This is what I'm trying to say. The rotation is from the wrist to elbow.

It will help us to create a heart-throbbing cantabile sound or not?

Sorry. I'm not so good in description.

[pts1]

Arm rotation is for the benefit of the pianist, not the piano.

Once the piano key descends to a certain point, the key lever "flips" the hammer up and it is thrown into the string making the sound.

There is nothing the pianist can do except control the speed with which the hammer is catipulted into the string.

The sense of "rounded tone" is an illusion which has to do with hand/arm/finger feeling and has no effect on the sound produced other than the speed of hammer ascent into the string.

This has been proven a number of times to a scientific certainty.

Unaccomplished pianists make a great deal of unnecessary movement that has no effect on the sound whatsoever.

[iratior]

It's clear from the above that arm movement has nothing to do with the sound created.  But arm movement does have an effect on how difficult it is to play accurately and avoid fatigue.  A good teacher can show "secret" arm movements that make all the difference in how difficult it is to play a piece.  I experiment a lot to see if I can find the "secret" ones that work.  It's tantalizing when someone says "It's all in the arm movement" or "all in the wrist movement" because that's so vague you can't follow without more precise instructions.  And it's also possible that the extent of arm movement could be lessened, once the type of technique it was designed to facilitate becomes more familiar to the player.

[decemberbell]

It's clear from the above that arm movement has nothing to do with the sound created.  But arm movement does have an effect on how difficult it is to play accurately and avoid fatigue.  A good teacher can show "secret" arm movements that make all the difference in how difficult it is to play a piece.  I experiment a lot to see if I can find the "secret" ones that work.  It's tantalizing when someone says "It's all in the arm movement" or "all in the wrist movement" because that's so vague you can't follow without more precise instructions.  And it's also possible that the extent of arm movement could be lessened, once the type of technique it was designed to facilitate becomes more familiar to the player.

I know the secret arm movement which is hardly noticeable. It really helps you when playing a speedy passage instead of struggling. The professor asked my friend to practice every single note with rotation. She practiced it with extremely slow speed. I asked her what is the purpose but she can't answer me. It seems like she is not sure about the aim of the action.

Is it for relaxation purpose? How does it work?

[iratior]

It's possible that playing every note with rotation serves as a kind ot gateway to discovering more beneficial movements.  I've heard about the "every note with rotation" theory from other sources.  I wasn't taught according to that school, but respect it.

[miriamko]

I'm not sure how rotating each note separately works. How we rotate and the size of the movement is based on what is happening between two notes . The rotation will be measured by the size of the interval, the depth of sound required or it may be partial. How could that be done , note by note?

[decemberbell]

I got the answer. Rotation for every single note is served as relaxation purpose.

[jmanpno]

Well I can assure you THAT is most assuredly NOT the answer.  "Rotation is for relaxtion"?! HA!  Not at all.  That will cause you a heap of other troubles.

[keyboardclass]

I must concur - relaxation allows rotation to take place, not the other way round.

[johnmar78]

Arm rotation is for the benefit of the pianist, not the piano.

Once the piano key descends to a certain point, the key lever "flips" the hammer up and it is thrown into the string making the sound.

There is nothing the pianist can do except control the speed with which the hammer is catipulted into the string.

The sense of "rounded tone" is an illusion which has to do with hand/arm/finger feeling and has no effect on the sound produced other than the speed of hammer ascent into the string.

This has been proven a number of times to a scientific certainty.

Unaccomplished pianists make a great deal of unnecessary movement that has no effect on the sound whatsoever.

Pt1, I agreed with you totally. I have had read an sound experiment done in 1950s, I think from memeory that they record the sound frequency of each finger stroke vs speed, and found taht there is no differences in sound but only"pianist illusion" .

[keyboardclass]

Pt1, I agreed with you totally. I have had read an sound experiment done in 1950s, I think from memeory that they record the sound frequency of each finger stroke vs speed, and found taht there is no differences in sound but only"pianist illusion" .

It's not an illusion - for the pianist, the person in contact with the piano, there's a big difference and surely the player's experience is important?  Most likely the feedback the player does get affects other parameters anyway.

[marik1]

As any other pianistic motion, arm rotation without clear musical intention, or idea is complete waste of time. Other than dissipating energy, attention, and creating extremely inefficient pianism, it serves no any other purpose.

Best, M

[m1469]

As any other pianistic motion, arm rotation without clear musical intention, or idea is complete waste of time. Other than dissipating energy, attention, and creating extremely inefficient pianism, it serves no any other purpose.

Best, M

Singleness or harmony of motive, activity, and manifestation.

[alfrunner440]

Hi,

The idea of arm rotation is nothing new. What is new is the acknowledgement that there is something going on with renowned classical pianists that we are not seeing and it is exactly what your teacher is talking about.

The problem is by using only using your fingers, you are putting a tremendous strain on the hand ligaments (by the way the fingers are moved by ligaments and not by muscles. The muscles are in the wrist where the ligaments are attached). Since they slide under a series of muscles in your wrist, many pianists end up with Carpul Tunnel.

Think about it, if you are playing with only your fingers, what is the rest of your arm doing during that time? Nothing, except moving your hand from side to side. In fact, you are using your shoulder muscles (deltoids) to move your arm, and they are the slowest muscles vs using forearm muscles. You can prove it to yourself by moving your arm hand from side to side only using the shoulders. Now only use the forearm, and you tell me which one can move more quickly?

If you go onto the Web and look up Dorothy Taubman you will find that she is the biggest advocate for using rotation. There are also testimony's on the web tauting the arm rotation method and how is got many pianists another lease on life when they thought that their careers were over.

[keyboardclass]

The problem is by using only using your fingers, you are putting a tremendous strain on the hand ligaments (by the way the fingers are moved by ligaments and not by muscles. The muscles are in the wrist where the ligaments are attached).

Oh dear, a little knowledge....  The fingers are moved by tendons in that start in the arms and end attached to the fingers (there are also muscles that run along the side of the fingers).  Ligaments are VERY important though - the tendons slip under a ligament every time they pass over a joint - the ligaments prevent the tendons pulling themselves out of your wrist/palm/finger.

The bandage looking things here are ligaments (the annular pulleys):

[pts1]

Having thought about what the topic is trying to address, I suspect the reason for the teacher teaching students to use arm rotation with every note played is an effort to have the student play with a free upper arm and learn the feeling of what this is like.

In other words, to teach the student to use the entire "chain" of anatomy used in playing piano so they don't develop the bad habit of isolating different elements and trying to play only with the fingers, for instance, and therefore create potential injurious movements, not to mention an inability to play advanced repetoire.

The professional level pianist plays everything starting with the shoulder and its ultimate linkage with the fingers. This is why they look so free and at ease when they play. Eventhough, there may only be micro movements with the shoulder and upper arm, this chain of anatomy is nevertheless engaged and participating.

An excellent exercise for teaching this is the Chopin Etude Opus 15 No 1... very free, simple and easy "mirrored" rotational movement playing one note at a time in each hand. Its almost impossible to play this WITHOUT the full gentle arm rotation of which I'm speaking.

[pts1]

Chopin Etude Opus 15 No 1...

Sorry typo... meant Opus 25 of course.

[marik1]

Hi,

The idea of arm rotation is nothing new. What is new is the acknowledgement that there is something going on with renowned classical pianists that we are not seeing and it is exactly what your teacher is talking about.

Are you saying that "something" whatever we are not seeing in the playing of renowned pianists is rotation of the arm on each single note? Indeed, this is something "new".

The problem is by using only using your fingers, you are putting a tremendous strain on the hand ligaments...

Nobody (meaning great pianists) uses fingers only, but yes, there are some schools to advocate finger work as the basis of pianism. I'd suggest to watch and analyze some Gould, Cziffra, Horowitz, and Sokolov video recordings. Each of those does pretty good job in using fingers, but of course, the "finger work" of either of those Greatest Artists can be taken isolated from entire system.

Think about it, if you are playing with only your fingers, what is the rest of your arm doing during that time? Nothing, except moving your hand from side to side. In fact, you are using your shoulder muscles (deltoids) to move your arm, and they are the slowest muscles vs using forearm muscles. You can prove it to yourself by moving your arm hand from side to side only using the shoulders. Now only use the forearm, and you tell me which one can move more quickly?

Mmmm.... whole starting point is entirely wrong.

Again, nobody plays with fingers only. On top of that besides moving arm from side to side there are motions up-down, circled, half circled, vibration from the shoulder, wrist work, forearm work, entire arm work, and thousands gradations/combinations of those. This is besides the point anything in piano performance ultimately starts not from the arms, but from the feet. Only musical content dictates the pianistic motion, which is unique to each certain particular spot. In most of the cases the wrist and arm just "follow" the fingers and shape of music phrase.

If you go onto the Web and look up Dorothy Taubman you will find that she is the biggest advocate for using rotation. There are also testimony's on the web tauting the arm rotation method and how is got many pianists another lease on life when they thought that their careers were over.

To make it clear, I am not against arm rotation. In many cases it is a wonderful tool to serve a certain musical idea. On the other hand, to say that each note has to be played with arm rotation is a complete nonsense, as it is taken out of musical content, serves no any particular musical purpose, and without proper understanding of the final goal does more harm than good either physically, or musically.

Best, M

[ajspiano]

Are you saying that "something" whatever we are not seeing in the playing of renowned pianists is rotation of the arm on each single note? Indeed, this is something "new".

I believe the taubman videos were produced in the nineties.. ??

and they quote ortmann as the first person to write about rotation - dorothy questions whether her double rotation can be compared to aspects of ortmanns work..  I believe his book was published 1962..?

I guess it depends what you call "new"

...the taubman argument is not that each note should be played with a concious rotation - its that rotation (along with other things) serves to support the entire mechanism, its not that its necessary or that you can not play sucessfully with out it - its that its healthier and more efficient to use it, sometimes in an incredibly subtle way, because it serves to facilitate the movement of the fingers, and maintain proper balance and strength over any given note.

..and that if the technique is truly efficient and effective, then any musical end is possible - where as some techniques may be sufficient for some musical intentions, but not others.

..Atleast thats how I interpret the videos.. whether its correct or not..

[ajspiano]

Perhaps I could summarise that..  ..so if you follow taubmans ideas unequivocally you would agree with the following.

The most efficient way to strike any given note in a musical passage will always require some degree of forearm rotation. In order to best facilitate our musical intention it is wise to use the most efficient motion, therefore in a virtuosic technique, amongst many other elements, every note will use forearm rotation.

[marik1]

I believe the taubman videos were produced in the nineties.. ??

and they quote ortmann as the first person to write about rotation - dorothy questions whether her double rotation can be compared to aspects of ortmanns work..  I believe his book was published 1962..?

I guess it depends what you call "new"

Sorry, my original passage was rather sarcastic, as NONE of the great or just renowned pianists would ever consider playing the piano with the rotation of the arm on each single note.

Indeed, arm rotation is nothing new and ANY great artist conciously or unconciously uses it.

Moreover, in Russian school it was used for well over a century and was an essential for Leschetitzky, Goldenweiser, or Igumnov schools. It was something so natural that nobody even talked about it, when the entire music phrase was put into a certain pianistic motion. Just watch Gilels, Flier, Richter, Berman, etc. to see how every single phrase is "drawn" with pianistic motion, with utmost efficiency and precision.

Perhaps I could summarise that..  ..so if you follow taubmans ideas unequivocally you would agree with the following.

The most efficient way to strike any given note in a musical passage will always require some degree of forearm rotation. In order to best facilitate our musical intention it is wise to use the most efficient motion, therefore in a virtuosic technique, amongst many other elements, every note will use forearm rotation.

I looked at hers webpage and could not find one single student of Taubman to become a pianist of stature. As such one could conclude her work has rather academic interest, than a universal "revolutionary" method.

Best, M    

[ajspiano]

^ at present I think its a completely natural motion that exists for every note, COMPLETELY instinctively in the vast majority of cases, unless you were unfortunate enough to be told your arm must stay still/rigid and that the fingers do all the work..

and that virtuosic pianists will never agree that its there because if they bring it into the concious realm on every note it becomes over done on most notes and the technique suffers.

the use of it conciously can perhaps be used as material gets harder and finer coordinations are required, and it is therefore being under done in some passages..

EDIT:
for me personally I also dont percieve it as "using" rotation on every note as a concious movement or strike - its more about getting to the perfect/comfort position for each note and its musical end, and that that invariable requires me to rotate my arm in some way - often times in an extremely subtle manor that is essentially invisible, but can be felt during the strike..  I can very obviously tell if its wrong because the passage just doesnt feel right. Most of the time its subconcious - but if I run into something i find difficult, this is often one of the things that resolves my difficulty - as in, the rotation was not instinctively correct. Ofcourse that is just my personal experience of one element of piano playing..

[marik1]

^ at present I think its a completely natural motion that exists for every note...

Not note, but music phrase.

and that virtuosic pianists will never agree that its there because if they bring it into the concious realm on every note it becomes over done on most notes and the technique suffers.

Never say never. You will be surprised, but MOST of virtuosic pianists (at least great ones) will be more than concious about that. Moreover, read Chasins' passage about Hoffmann to realize that he (as most of great artists) was concious about every detail of performance, including such thing as what we call "inspiration".

Best, M

[ajspiano]

Never say never. You will be surprised, but MOST of virtuosic pianists (at least great ones) will be more than concious about that.

I should articulate myself better - I mean to say that a collective of them will probably not all agree on it. If only because they may describe their experiences in that regard differently, even if they were very similar physically. And because if testing a physical alteration based on a written description of it, they may then execute different alterations based on differing interpretations of the pedagogical description..

in essence I agree with your response.. ..not that i'm a virtuosic pianist - but I'm certainly aware of exactly what i'm doing on a great many levels, particularly when playing more advanced rep.

[keyboardclass]

and they quote ortmann as the first person to write about rotation - dorothy questions whether her double rotation can be compared to aspects of ortmanns work..  I believe his book was published 1962..?

It's Matthay Taubman quotes - he's writing around 1900 (Ortmann 1929 and not an advocate for rotation).

[ajspiano]

It's Matthay Taubman quotes - he's writing around 1900 (Ortmann 1929 and not an advocate for rotation).

That sounds right - they quote both of them at various times, but I wasnt 100% sure which it was in regard to this topic. Also I checked that 1962 figure, I had a feeling it was a reprint though..

[johnmar78]

ok, let me sum up the whole debates.

This is what I have put in orders of importance of hands development during piano journy.

Nothing wrong with finger power, that Glen Gould overly used his finger power as a result of his hands operation. ; Finger comes first and rest arm weights, whrist should what ever your body weights, shoulder..feetworks and backline and 30% incline to the piano and seating heights...@#%$#%^&&^*@. All important, but we never forget that FINGER comes first. The rest comes with it with good body and reflex coordination. Either you rotes excessively or not, its depend on your physical fitness and agility, if you NEED us eother parts, than do it. Use it as REQUIRED so as finger liftings. Onething you forgot to mention is BREATHING -very important.

Onething someone told me, when play Mozart, use high seatings....

[pts1]

After reading a good deal of this, I'd especially like to see/hear some of ajspiano and marik1's playing.

Do either of you have any videos or recordings posted?

[marik1]

After reading a good deal of this, I'd especially like to see/hear some of ajspiano and marik1's playing.

Do either of you have any videos or recordings posted?

Sorry, nothing most recent.

Best, M

[thalbergmad]

Perhaps you should repost your stunning Tausig/Weber, just in case there is any doubt amongst some members that you are not the "real deal".

Thal

[ajspiano]

I've not seen Marik play - but there's no doubt in my mind that he's a stronger pianist than I. I've seenm1469play and read her posts, and I believe she chooses to take lessons from Marik which is a fairly big indicator..

There's a couple of videos of me playing under prepared excerpts of pieces - I feel none of them represent my playing as a whole or as it is currently.  Those videos were never complete performances, rather suggestions to potentially aid certain technical troubles, very specific physical focus points, and had as much talking and exaggerated examples/practice suggestions as they did fluent playing..

I plan on posting something to the audition room in about 2 weeks (3 months into study of the piece) - it will be my first entry there.. stay tuned if you really want to see me play something tough that I've put real work into..

[ajspiano]

I looked at hers webpage and could not find one single student of Taubman to become a pianist of stature. As such one could conclude her work has rather academic interest, than a universal "revolutionary" method.

Best, M     

The success of the method appears to be largely in the ability to reform injury, or produce more comfortable playing very quickly (minimal practice) when minor troubles arise. Though ofcourse that's not to say any other school would not be able to do that.

I feel their aim is not to produce world class pianists, rather to produce reasonable pianists consistently. - that is, to be able to solve with clear instruction the technical problems that anyone not so "talented" faces throughout the literature.

Having watched a few live lessons from a taubman symposium (I have some golandsky material other than the taubman techniques) I get the impression that the videos are not that representative of their lessons too, because it's overly condensed. The taubman technique videos attempt to break down and explain each facet of the overall. It's too much information to just watch it and immediately apply. The lessons I've seen are much more "try adding a bit more of this in that particular spot to resolve that technical issue as applicable to this particular musical context" and there's a focus on "does it feel good" not "you must be doing this physical action or its wrong" - ofcourse I could still be off base as it's just a few isolated examples that I've seen.

[bdf2d]

I think it's purpose to make your arm keep relax.If you do not move it, It will be tight.

[alfrunner440]

Hi again,

I have read all of the posts, and as usual some are positive and of cource some are negative. Unfortunately, I had a teacher who may not be world famous, but the Taubman Method saved her injured hand so that she could begin to play. By the way, Guldansky, left the Taubman Institute and took 3/4 of the instructors with her and formed her own institute. Needless to say, D. Taubman was really mad, but what could she do.

From the jist of the conversations, I take it that many on this forum have been playing for many years and have totally forgotten what it was like to learn how to play the piano. Has anyone watched a child of about five or six play the piano, they not only have their wrists in many cases below the keyboard, which can be corrected, but the use their whole are to to pull down the key since they do not possess the strength in many cases to push to keys down. Most of use have forgotten how weak the 4th and 5th fingers in the had really are. The one basic thing that rotation does is to allow thows two fingers to function like the other three. In fact if you try to run a scale using the method, your left hand feels like it it going down hill and that there is no effort being expended. I also must clarify, but do not use it with the C scale which is the hardest to play, since you have so little room to move and some of your fingers are off of the keyboard. Try the D Flat, which is the first scale that Chopin taught his students because he felt that it was the easiest to learn and there were very few keys would get in the way of the movement. If you try to feel what is going on, every white key that you play you can feel your had moving down with your forearem to depress the key, and moving up and in again to play the next black key.

We can go on like this all day, discussing the merits and abjections to the method. The bottom line is not to be obsessed with the method as some teachers have become, but rather use it when you find a passage is giving you trouble as a point of reference and analysis as to the movements of the hands that are required.

[keyboardclass]

By the way, Guldansky, left the Taubman Institute and took 3/4 of the instructors with her and formed her own institute. Needless to say, D. Taubman was really mad, but what could she do.

Saw that coming.

[m1469]

I actually "rebuilt" my entire technique into forearm rotations (for every, single note) "just" before I started lessons with Marik.  I learned a lot from that experience with them (that is a little bit of an understatement) and looking back I'd say it was probably a necessary step for me, as there are things that it was extremely helpful for (though I wasn't injured, per se), but it's probably about the worst I'd ever sounded in my life.

[nyiregyhazi]

Most of use have forgotten how weak the 4th and 5th fingers in the had really are. The one basic thing that rotation does is to allow thows two fingers to function like the other three.

That's exactly what it doesn't do- and can even actively hinder. For years I had virtually no movement in my r.h. 5th- due to only trying to rock onto it, rather than ever learning how to actually move it. I'm not opposed to sensible use of rotation to inspire free finger movement. However, the idea that it supposedly compensates for weakness is simply not true. This attitude can actively perpetuate it- unless you work on moving the fingers or have enough prior experience of doing so. In order to achieve a properly functioning 5th, it's important to spend time rotating in the opposite direction (rather than slumping onto the side) in order to move the fingers in a totally direct path. If you only rotate in a way that lets this side of the hand slump on to the key, there's a limit to how much movement can be developed in the finger. If you never use the muscles that move in a direct line through the key, they will never become more capable.

Incidentally, for the first time I'm starting to find that rotation is useful in an extremely fast trill, rather than a hindrance. I had to a lot of work on getting the fingers used to actually moving the keys, before it started to be of the slightest benefit. It simply cannot compensate for an absence of adequate finger movement.

[ajspiano]

I actually "rebuilt" my entire technique into forearm rotations but it's probably about the worst I'd ever sounded in my life.

Did you do that under the guidance of a teacher or on your own? Why/how do you think it negatively impacted your sound? Did you do it because of the taubman videos or a different source? If it was taubman, do you feel that you genuinely incorporated all the concepts (rotation, in/out, walking hand, shaping, grouping) into your playing or is your experience a result of focus purely on rotation?

^ I mean this to be from a neutral stand point, am just curious.

[m1469]

Did you do that under the guidance of a teacher or on your own?  Did you do it because of the taubman videos or a different source?

I received tips from a teacher (who is well-respected, btw) and my progress was not monitored.  I'm not sure what this teacher's source was.  I posted in this thread vs. the taubman thread precisely because I didn't officially learn taubman, as far as I know, and can only imagine that taubman would have been more detailed and with personal, monitored progress.  

Why/how do you think it negatively impacted your sound? If it was taubman, do you feel that you genuinely incorporated all the concepts (rotation, in/out, walking hand, shaping, grouping) into your playing or is your experience a result of focus purely on rotation?

^ I mean this to be from a neutral stand point, am just curious.

I actually can't fully answer those things and Marik might have more perspective than me on what I came to him being able to actually do, but it was awhile ago now and a lot has happened since then  .  What I CAN say is that, no, I did not officially and consciously learn all of those things at the same time (but that doesn't necessarily mean I wasn't doing them).  

If I flash forward to now and think about what I have been working on within the last 3.75 years, before working with Marik and also my in-state teacher, I had never consciously learned a basic finger articulation/technique, nor did I really comprehend note-groups, gestures, or pianistic motions.  I had no conscious toolbox, or you could say, control, over the way I touched the piano in order to achieve a sound image in my head.  That last part truly matters the most.  I know for certain forearm rotations didn't get me much closer, though you could probably say there was less tension in the sound.  I think that I was picking up on half-circles as well as circular motions in general at around the same time as forearm rotations, but my ability to use that in musical context, not just as a physical motion that I knew existed in the world, was negligible.  

[marik1]

Perhaps you should repost your stunning Tausig/Weber, just in case there is any doubt amongst some members that you are not the "real deal".

Ah, those who know to read and think will understand, those who do not--why should I care about "doubts" of fools who know better what is wrong and what is right?

Best, M  

[ajspiano]

I received tips from a teacher (who is well-respected, btw) and my progress was not monitored.  I'm not sure what this teacher's source was.  I posted in this thread vs. the taubman thread precisely because I didn't officially learn taubman, as far as I know, and can only imagine that taubman would have been more detailed and with personal, monitored progress. 

I'm in the same position as you I guess, no real lessons on it, so obviously I can't speak for taubman or any of its properly trained disciples.

I think that the lessons would be so very different though, there is a great exaggeration of all their movements and not a lot of disscussion on how to reduce them to the "invisible" that they talk about. I feel like it leads to a significant misunderstanding of what they are trying to say.

Having worked through them I ultimately concluded that whatever it is that they describe by talking about double/single rotation I was doing already most of the time. The process drew my attention to whatever it is that I'm doing with my forearm in relation to this, and when I identified places that it was lacking, putting it in improved both the comfort and quality of my playing. I can also remove it everywhere and the result is strain and tension in my forearm, which I think is my extensors being over worked. Which would be in line with their talk of using the rotation to aid the lifting of fingers resulting in minimal use of the extensors.

I also found that doing rotation alone, without any of what i perceive the rest of the taubman concepts to be, results in loads of difficulties. The "rotation" element, if that does infact best describe what it is that I do on every note, is an underlying element and while I consider it vital, it is not more vital than any other pianistic motion when it comes to producing a "whole technique" for a given musical phrase, used in isolation it doesnt work and results in a harsh semi-robotic playing of every note rather than a fluent expressive musical phrase.

..I have plenty of respect for mariks wisdom, however if I was to remove what I think of as the combination of taubmans "rotation" and "walking hand/arm" on any single note it would negatively impact my playing, so rather I must conclude that we perceive the explanation to mean different things. Though ofcourse I could still be very wrong, but I think its unlikely i'll learn and agree without in person discussion demonstration and analysis of my playing.

[m1469]

I'm in the same position as you I guess, no real lessons on it, so obviously I can't speak for taubman or any of its properly trained disciples.

I think that the lessons would be so very different though, there is a great exaggeration of all their movements and not a lot of disscussion on how to reduce them to the "invisible" that they talk about.

Well, I will tell you a little secret, I actually have managed to make mine nearly completely invisible and my Teachies don't see it ... except for once in awhile, and then I get busted ... just joking  .

I feel like it leads to a significant misunderstanding of what they are trying to say.

Having worked through them I ultimately concluded that whatever it is that they describe by talking about double/single rotation I was doing already most of the time.

This is a blast of memory for me.  I see and feel and hear myself working this out, consciously (I mean, when I was actually doing that - that was a different person and not only one lifetime ago, but several).  Ah, strange what has happened between then and now!  What will the next 5 years bring?  Yes, the person who gave me tips and pointers did demonstrate, did explain.

The process drew my attention to whatever it is that I'm doing with my forearm in relation to this, and when I identified places that it was lacking, putting it in improved both the comfort and quality of my playing. I can also remove it everywhere and the result is strain and tension in my forearm, which I think is my extensors being over worked. Which would be in line with their talk of using the rotation to aid the lifting of fingers resulting in minimal use of the extensors.

I also found that doing rotation alone, without any of what i perceive the rest of the taubman concepts to be, results in loads of difficulties. The "rotation" element, if that does infact best describe what it is that I do on every note, is an underlying element and while I consider it vital, it is not more vital than any other pianistic motion when it comes to producing a "whole technique" for a given musical phrase, used in isolation it doesnt work and results in a harsh semi-robotic playing of every note rather than a fluent expressive musical phrase.

One of the biggest contributions for me was that, through learning forearm rotations (coupled with correct posture) I, for the first time, could sit comfortably at the piano and feel what it is to play without tension.  That sensation has stayed with me throughout everything else, and I am infinitely grateful for that because I have needed it as a reminder.  Plus, forearm rotations are not altogether useless for expressing musical ideas.  There may be some video, somewhere, of me playing Bach's AMB minuet in G ... I think that was my "big" attempt at something with a "rebuilt" technique.  

..I have plenty of respect for mariks wisdom, however if I was to remove what I think of as the combination of taubmans "rotation" and "walking hand/arm" on any single note it would negatively impact my playing, so rather I must conclude that we perceive the explanation to mean different things. Though ofcourse I could still be very wrong, but I think its unlikely i'll learn and agree without in person discussion demonstration and analysis of my playing.

hmmm ... I try to answer this but my mind just floats into some land of all of what the past few years have been like.  I could sum it up in one succinct tone, but I can't seem to put it into words .

[ajspiano]

There may be some video, somewhere, of me playing Bach's AMB minuet in G ... I think that was my "big" attempt at something with a "rebuilt" technique.

I'd look if I could find it..

I don't think I ever "rebuilt" - I tried to, but in the end I just kept on doing what I always did, only with a greater understanding of what it was about my current skills that worked, and what didn't - it became more refined. It also kick started the process of understanding how different movements work, and what movements are even possible. So as to properly experiment and arrive at something that works and delivers the sound desired with comfort/ease. What has been more important for me as a teacher on the technical side of things has been understanding what movements cause which negative effects, and how to recognize them in a student.

Some other thoughts/experiences -

What I originally perceived on the video to be what they meant about rotation caused problems, and since they say "it can look right and still be wrong" I assume I had it wrong initially.

There is definitely "something" going on in my technique, that if I remove it causes problems

I find it hard to believe that Edna, and the rest of her faculty are all doing this meticulously in their own playing if it doesn't work well for them, or if not doing it works better, especially considering the taubman institute has effectively been around since the 70's.

Since I'm physiologically similar (we are all human), what works for them should work for me. Therefore, I have to assume that what I'm doing is probably for the most part similar to what they are doing because it works and I don't have any tension issues, or major ongoing technical difficulties.

If I had stumbled onto the motion without reference to any known pedagogy (just noticed it in my playing) I doubt I'd have thought it was sourced in the forearm as it is so very subtle. With that in mind maybe what I'm talking about isn't actually rotation at all - but given the reference to known pedagogy I'm inclined to think it is.

I think the issue is prone to disagreement because it is so incredibly subtle, and because it would ultimately not be necessary to do it on every note in order to achieve the given musical aim. But, I think that it feels better as the performer if the motion is there.

.............

I think it would be great if marik could discuss in more detail why he thinks it shouldn't always happen, and what effects he thinks it has. Such as perhaps, to what musical end would you use it, and to what musical end would you not. As well as perhaps discuss more about what constitutes rotation over the entire musical phrase, which he said is there always. Providing that explanation may be a time consuming task though so I won't be too bothered if it doesn't happen. I'd be happy form1469to have a go too as one of mariks students

[keyboardclass]

 There may be some video, somewhere, of me playing Bach's AMB minuet in G ... I think that was my "big" attempt at something with a "rebuilt" technique.  

I think you'd be wrong to play pre-Chopin music with rotation.  In fact, as rotation is founded on pronating, it should really start for music written by pronators - when's the first time it's mentioned in the literature? 

[pianoman53]

I think you'd be wrong to play pre-Chopin music with rotation.  In fact, as rotation is founded on pronating, it should really start for music written by pronators - when's the first time it's mentioned in the literature? 

So all sort of albert-figures should be played simply with fingers? Sorry, but you make it harder and harder for me to take you even a bit seriously.

[ajspiano]

I think you'd be wrong to play pre-Chopin music with rotation.  In fact, as rotation is founded on pronating, it should really start for music written by pronators - when's the first time it's mentioned in the literature? 

Not that I expect you to agree with me at all - but how do you suppose you'd play the broken octaves in the pathetique first movement without strain if you do not utilize some level of rotation in the forearm?

[ajspiano]

Or, for that matter, how do you suppose beethoven himself did it? or any preceding composer with any similar figure..

[keyboardclass]

Would feather-weight keys be one part of the answer?  And I'll repeat - when is pronation first mentioned in the literature?