Hardest piece composed?

[Rachmanoinoff]

Hey people,
what do you think is the hardest piece(s) ever composed for piano?  Don't just say the Rach 3 or the Liszt sonata, but other stuff...

perhaps one of the Brahms concerti?

Regards,
Martin

[tosca1]

I would suggest "Islamey" by Balakirev.  It is an Oriental fantasy
of consummate style and brilliance and some pianists have described it as being the most difficult piece ever written for the piano.  

[10Fingers]

hey fella,

I think the hardest stuff are schönberg, bartok or cage, all that strange stuff. the rhythm is prettie hard.

[ravel]

hey guys,
well , yup schoenberg and bartok are really difficult,i agree,
i think thought that prokofiev could be one of the hardest, his music seems to be impossible at times, like his piano concerto no.2 , its unimaginable to think of playing that.( i heard volodos play it with such ease , but that was cause he is a master at the piano),but even his other piano concertos like piano concerto no. 3 and piano concerto no.5 are really hard, and his war sonatas, offffffffffffffffffffff too hard to think about , haha
and well gaspard de la nuit by ravel could be one of the hardest pieces, ravels  and debussys other piano pieces  and all too seem pretty hard, of course chopin ,rachmaninov and lizst , but every one knows they can be hard.

[SteveK]

I think Maurice Ravel's Jeux D'eau is the hardest piece composed!! It is because there are stretches for the right hand, and also requires LOTS OF JUMPS!!!!!!!!!!!! The other pieces that are difficult is Prokofieff's Toccata, Liszt's Campanella, and "W.R.'s Polka" by Sergei Rachmaninoff!

[ihatepop]

I'm waiting for some idoit to say 'Opus clavicembalisticum'

ihatepop

[jre58591]

there are things far more difficult than opus clavicembalisticum. take a look:

https://pianochat.proboards25.com/index.cgi?board=pianogeneral&action=display&thread=1151250015

notice how sorabji has 3 pieces in that list, none being OC.

[ahinton]

I'm waiting for some idoit to say 'Opus clavicembalisticum'

ihatepop

Well, while you're "waiting", go figure what an "idoit" is...

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

Well, while you're "waiting", go figure what an "idoit" is...

Best,

Alistair

Be nice now Alistair.

[jre58591]

Be nice now Alistair.

i think ihatepop needs to be nice. hes bashing people that like sorabji, which i (and alistair im sure) take offense to.

[debussy symbolism]

Are you aware that "Ihatepop" is 12?

[jre58591]

Are you aware that "Ihatepop" is 12?

really? i thought he was like 10. still, it doesnt really matter.

[debussy symbolism]

really? i thought he was like 10. still, it doesnt really matter.

That's not the point. The point is that Ihatepop can insult the piece or the composer as much as he wants, and that will of course carry no real burden to the discussion. By insulting him, especially by Mr. Hinton, would probably hurt Ihatepop emotionally, and as he is young, he may take it seriously. And should he be indeed 10, all the more reason to not insult him. He thinks differently and his psyche is still very far from being that of an adult, so what we may perceive as harmless, might be very damaging to self esteem of his.

Best.

[jre58591]

still, there is no reason to bash a composer one barely understands. back on topic....

check out the link i posted for the ultimate answer to this question.

i dont intend on creating a side conversation, for you know that i am against those. so, lets just leave it at that.

[debussy symbolism]

still, there is no reason to bash a composer one barely understands. back on topic....

check out the link i posted for the ultimate answer to this question.

i dont intend on creating a side conversation, for you know that i am against those. so, lets just leave it at that.

You are right. There is in fact no reason to bash any composer. Such bashing however is insignificant, especially to those that might find the composer interesting. I can see why Alistair would dislike that of course, the composer bashing.

There is no answer to this question. The answer is very equivocal in that there are two arguments. One, is assessing the "hardest" playable piece, and one is assessing the "hardest" piece overall. The latter is of course pointless, in that a harder piece can always be made and have no musical quality to it. The other, is of course arguable, but still, results can never be true because difficulty varies from one individual to another, and as we are primarily looking at the technical difficulties, we are completely ignoring the musical qualities that would be present in such a piece.

[ahinton]

That's not the point. The point is that Ihatepop can insult the piece or the composer as much as he wants, and that will of course carry no real burden to the discussion. By insulting him, especially by Mr. Hinton, would probably hurt Ihatepop emotionally, and as he is young, he may take it seriously. And should he be indeed 10, all the more reason to not insult him. He thinks differently and his psyche is still very far from being that of an adult, so what we may perceive as harmless, might be very damaging to self esteem of his.

Best.

What I have written was not intended as an "insult" per se and should accordingly not be interpreted as such. I was indeed unaware of "ihatepop"'s age, but if drawing attention to a single spelling or typographical error that he has committed is likely to "damage his self esteem" or "hurt" him "emotionally"(!), then his school teachers are going to have a very hard time of it indeed. Furthermore, whatever his age, this remains an adult forum whose members are chiefly adults (though one may sometimes wonder about this) and so anyone of "ihatepop"'s age who nevertheless chooses to join and contribute to it would do well to bear that in mind - not in the sense of attempting to ape adult thinking and reasoning beyond his/her years, but merely in recognising that this area is largely populated by adults who discuss subjects as such.

Best,

Alistair

[ihatepop]

..........

[ihatepop]

Furthermore, whatever his age, this remains an adult forum whose members are chiefly adults (though one may sometimes wonder about this) and so anyone of "ihatepop"'s age who nevertheless chooses to join and contribute to it would do well to bear that in mind - not in the sense of attempting to ape adult thinking and reasoning beyond his/her years, but merely in recognising that this area is largely populated by adults who discuss subjects as such.

Best,

Alistair

This is SOOOO not an adult forum!!!!
Are you saying I'm Not mature?!

By insulting him, especially by Mr. Hinton, would probably hurt Ihatepop emotionally, and as he is young, he may take it seriously. And should he be indeed 10, all the more reason to not insult him. He thinks differently and his psyche is still very far from being that of an adult, so what we may perceive as harmless, might be very damaging to self esteem of his.

Best.

Hey, hey, hey.....I'm cool.....don't worry. I don't really mind what other people think!

ihatepop

P.S. ARRGGHHH Hinton!!!!!

[debussy symbolism]

What I have written was not intended as an "insult" per se and should accordingly not be interpreted as such. I was indeed unaware of "ihatepop"'s age, but if drawing attention to a single spelling or typographical error that he has committed is likely to "damage his self esteem" or "hurt" him "emotionally"(!), then his school teachers are going to have a very hard time of it indeed. Furthermore, whatever his age, this remains an adult forum whose members are chiefly adults (though one may sometimes wonder about this) and so anyone of "ihatepop"'s age who nevertheless chooses to join and contribute to it would do well to bear that in mind - not in the sense of attempting to ape adult thinking and reasoning beyond his/her years, but merely in recognising that this area is largely populated by adults who discuss subjects as such.

Best,

Alistair

Yes, you are theoretically correct, but you have to realize that to him, any sort of put down is a put down to his ego, which in itself hasn't yet been formed due to his age, thus perhaps having to bear in the future a slight possibility of contortion due to posts presented here, that to him may seem as insulting. I may be wrong here, but your reply to him clearly stood out as insulting to me. I am in no way trying to insult you, but am trying to make it evident that should something seem insulting to me, there is a possibility that that something would be insulting to "Ihatepop". You have to understand that he wouldn't interpret your "insult" as an insult from just an ordinary member, but an insult from Alistair Hinton, a figure that is associated with Sorabji and his music, and thus tying your responce to the aforementioned "Opus Clavicembalisticum". That to me, is a reason for him to have second thoughts upon future acknowledgement of the work as a prominent work, an incident that surely wouldn't boost the piece's already unstable pupularity.

Best.

[ahinton]

Yes, you are theoretically correct, but you have to realize that to him, any sort of put down is a put down to his ego, which in itself hasn't yet been formed due to his age, thus perhaps having to bear in the future a slight possibility of contortion due to posts presented here, that to him may seem as insulting. I may be wrong here, but your reply to him clearly stood out as insulting to me. I am in no way trying to insult you, but am trying to make it evident that should something seem insulting to me, there is a possibility that that something would be insulting to "Ihatepop". You have to understand that he wouldn't interpret your "insult" as an insult from just an ordinary member, but an insult from Alistair Hinton, a figure that is associated with Sorabji and his music, and thus tying your responce to the aforementioned "Opus Clavicembalisticum". That to me, is a reason for him to have second thoughts upon future acknowledgement of the work as a prominent work, an incident that surely wouldn't boost the piece's already unstable pupularity.

Best.

But according to his most recent post, it doesn't appear to have bothered him anyway, does it?! Had you not seen that post before responding as you did here?

Best,

Alistair

[soderlund]

About the hardest pieces, why haven't anyone even mentioned Charles Alkan? Has anyone played Saltarelle, op 23? His etudes might be even harder, I don't know, I haven't played any piece of him, just listened to and looked at the notes.

[ihatepop]

About the hardest pieces, why haven't anyone even mentioned Charles Alkan? Has anyone played Saltarelle, op 23? His etudes might be even harder, I don't know, I haven't played any piece of him, just listened to and looked at the notes.

Do you have the score to that?

ihatepop

[soderlund]

They are available at music-scores.com. Take a look at it. You can listen to it as well. Especially the ending, the two last note pages or so are extremely demanding.

[jre58591]

imo the saltarelle doesnt even begin to compare with alkan's concerto or symphony for solo piano, techinically or musically.

[jakev2.0]

Ihatepop sounds more mature than ahinton.

[jre58591]

Ihatepop sounds more mature than ahinton.

think about that long and hard for the next few minutes and think about whether you want to edit your post or not.

[ahinton]

Ihatepop sounds more mature than ahinton.

Neither the name "ihatepop" nor the name "ahinton" sound either mature or immature; they are just names - and forum ID ones at that. Yes, of course I am taking your remark literally rather than in the way in which I believe you to have intended it. That's just about what it deserves, I think - and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would have thought exactly the same had you put those two names in reverse order...

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

I would have thought exactly the same had you put those two names in reverse order...

Best,

Alistair

Should you indeed have done so, the structure of the sentence would imply that you be more mature than "ihatepop", and given how you assessed the sentence structure only literally, to you, it should make no difference, but others may see it connotating that you are infact more mature than "ihatepop"

[debussy symbolism]

But according to his most recent post, it doesn't appear to have bothered him anyway, does it?! Had you not seen that post before responding as you did here?

Best,

Alistair

I have infact seen "Ihatepop's" post, but did reply in order to assume a point should he have not posted that message.

[ahinton]

Should you indeed have done so, the structure of the sentence would imply that you be more mature than "ihatepop", and given how you assessed the sentence structure only literally, to you, it should make no difference, but others may see it connotating that you are infact more mature than "ihatepop"

Try reading my post again - abit slower this time - and, if and when you do, try to think only of your own opinion as arising from what you personally read into or from what I wrote, rather than seeking also to inveigle what you might choose to allege as the potential or actual opinions of others as though in some kind of attempt to support your view.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I have infact seen "Ihatepop's" post, but did reply in order to assume a point should he have not posted that message.

If I understand correctly what struck me as your somewhat convoluted expression here, you chose to reply regardless of "ihatepop"'s post and regardless also of the fact that you had read it before replying, so the already somewhat obscure point that you appear to have sought to make in your reply seems also rather redundant, due to its apparent basis in the thoughts that you may have had if he had not posted it.

I am therefore obliged to conclude that it may be more pertinent to accept "ihatepop"'s response rather than yours on his behalf which, by your own admission, was made as though he had not responded thus.

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

Try reading my post again - abit slower this time - and, if and when you do, try to think only of your own opinion as arising from what you personally read into or from what I wrote, rather than seeking also to inveigle what you might choose to allege as the potential or actual opinions of others as though in some kind of attempt to support your view.

Best,

Alistair

I am not using opinions of others, except yours, to support my proof. You claimed that by interpeting the sentece literally, it should make no difference because the two names mentioned are merely forum names and hence bear no meaning. Given that logic, I claim that should you reverse the two names and thus create the sentence "Ahinton is more mature than Ihatepop", then to you it will denotate nothing, since of your particular method of assessing the sentence literally. However to others, including myself, the sentence might connotate that Ahinton is indeed more mature than Ihatepop, and the denotative qualities of the sentence might be overlooked.

[debussy symbolism]

If I understand correctly what struck me as your somewhat convoluted expression here, you chose to reply regardless of "ihatepop"'s post and regardless also of the fact that you had read it before replying, so the already somewhat obscure point that you appear to have sought to make in your reply seems also rather redundant, due to its apparent basis in the thoughts that you may have had if he had not posted it.

That is correct.

I am therefore obliged to conclude that it may be more pertinent to accept "ihatepop"'s response rather than yours on his behalf which, by your own admission, was made as though he had not responded thus.

Best,

Alistair

You are free to interpret both responces as you wish, because indeed, I made mine with disregard for "Ihatepop's" reply, but did so consciously as to make a point, should he indeed not have responded.

Given that he has answered however, I have nothing against you adhering to his responce because his is the dominant one, given that he was at the center of the discussion. Since he holds that what we seek to know, whether it is assessing his maturity or whether he was insulted, or whatever, his message ultimately settles any sort of misunderstandings that we might have, and given that he did infact reply by saying that he indeed wasn't offended, I don't find it surprising that you chose to adhere to his statement instead of mine, as his statement provides us with a direct information that we debated(or tried to debate).

Best.

[ihatepop]

i think ihatepop needs to be nice. hes bashing people that like sorabji, which i (and alistair im sure) take offense to.

Lets make things clear here...I am not bashing sorabji, and I know that OC is NOT the hardest piece. I said that I'm waiting for some idoit to say OC to show that its simply nOT the hardest piece! Sheesh!!! I never said sorabji was bad, just because he did not compose the hardest piece!!!

ihatepop

[jre58591]

Lets make things clear here...I am not bashing sorabji, and I know that OC is NOT the hardest piece. I said that I'm waiting for some idoit to say OC to show that its simply nOT the hardest piece! Sheesh!!! I never said sorabji was bad, just because he did not compose the hardest piece!!!

well, i thought that by you calling someone that thinks OC is the hardest piece an idiot meant that you dididnt like sorabji. and lets face it. you probably dont like anyways. and dont call people idiots just because of their taste.

[debussy symbolism]

Lets make things clear here...I am not bashing sorabji, and I know that OC is NOT the hardest piece. I said that I'm waiting for some idoit to say OC to show that its simply nOT the hardest piece! Sheesh!!! I never said sorabji was bad, just because he did not compose the hardest piece!!!

ihatepop

There is that "idoit" word again....

Is that a new word?

[ihatepop]

 

[debussy symbolism]

I don't mean to offend you. I meant that you typed the word "idoit" again.

[nicco]

This reply is more suitable for a baby who doesent get what he wants and starts crying. Why dont you rather try and explain your views in a normal manner without a million exclamation marks and such.

[ihatepop]

well, i thought that by you calling someone that thinks OC is the hardest piece an idiot meant that you dididnt like sorabji. and lets face it. you probably dont like anyways.

Heehee, I haven't even HEARD any pieces by him.
I've noticed on OTHER threads that people say that OC is NOT the hardest piece, which is why I made that comment. Saying that only an IDIOT would SAY that OC was the hardest piece, I'm not saying that soraji is an (you know what) and I'm also NOT directing this insult to any other sorabji worshipers. DON't YOU GET IT?!?!?! (just trying to put things straight here)

This reply is more suitable for a baby who doesent get what he wants and starts crying. Why dont you rather try and explain your views in a normal manner without a million exclamation marks and such.

[No Comment]

ihatepop

[nicco]

[No Comment]

ihatepop

Of course not, that would be the mature thing to do.

[emill]

I'm waiting for some idoit to say 'Opus clavicembalisticum'
ihatepop

Help me dissect this statement ..

I'm waiting for some idoit to say 'Opus clavicembalisticum' (is the hardest piece composed).

-  There are piano pieces definitely more difficult than Opus clavicembalisticum.
-  Anyone who insists that OC is the hardest piece composed for piano does not
know what he is talking about (therefore is an idiot).

Did I get that right?

So that if a member of  this forum will venture an opinion that OC is the hardest
piano piece composed, then as far as ihatepop is concerned ... he or she is an idiot!

I am sure ihatepop did not mean to insult anyone here and was merely stating an opinion. 
It could just be the result of the varying nuances of English as spoken
and understood in Singapore, the Philippines, in the US and UK... I think.

Or you could just blame it on his age !

 

[ahinton]

Help me dissect this statement ..

I'm waiting for some idoit to say 'Opus clavicembalisticum' (is the hardest piece composed).

-  There are piano pieces definitely more difficult than Opus clavicembalisticum.
-  Anyone who insists that OC is the hardest piece composed for piano does not
know what he is talking about (therefore is an idiot).

Did I get that right?

Yes and no. The answer to the first is yes, as far as it goes (by which I mean that one person's difficulty is another person's comparative ease); there certainly are piano pieces
that, in general terms, can reasonably be described as harder to play than OC. That to the second is quite another matter, for anyone that does indeed make such an assertion may not know what he/she is talking about, but that fat alone does not necessarily identify him/her as an "idiot".

Best,

Alistair

[opus10no2]

Ignoring the likes of Sorabji, Xenakis and Finnissy...

Hardest Bach - Goldberg Vars.

-- Beethoven - Hammerklavier Sonata.

-- Chopin - Op.10no2

-- Liszt - Transcription of Beethoven's 9th (not just for length)

-- Alkan - op39, obviously, but individually - Op39no1, the solo concerto, and op76

-- Rachmaninov - 3rd Concerto and Midsummer night Scherzo trans.

-- late/post romantic - Reger Bach vars. Godowsky passacaglia, and various Chop-God etudes.

20th century great piano works(IMO only listing the hardest among the ones I consider worth playing))- Rzewski Ppl United Vars. Barber sonata Fugue, Hamelin prelude+fugue.

[ahinton]

Ignoring the likes of Sorabji, Xenakis and Finnissy...

1. but why would you do that in the present context?
2. who, in your view, are "the likes" of these composers? (just curious...)

Hardest Bach - Goldberg Vars.

-- Beethoven - Hammerklavier Sonata.

-- Chopin - Op.10no2

-- Liszt - Transcription of Beethoven's 9th (not just for length)

-- Alkan - op39, obviously, but individually - Op39no1, the solo concerto, and op76

-- Rachmaninov - 3rd Concerto and Midsummer night Scherzo trans.

-- late/post romantic - Reger Bach vars. Godowsky passacaglia, and various Chop-God etudes.

20th century great piano works(IMO only listing the hardest among the ones I consider worth playing))- Rzewski Ppl United Vars. Barber sonata Fugue, Hamelin prelude+fugue.

Some of the items you cite here may indeed find the agreement of certainpeople in the context of this thread, although there must be quite a few others (subject to what i have already statd, which is that one person's difficult is not necessarily that of another).

Best,

Alistair

[opus10no2]

I exclude them because I personally don't find them worth playing.

Granted - they are extremely difficult to play, but a pianist's technique and abilities can be assessed by much more efficient means

Why would anyone learn Finnissy's 'history of photography in sound' when they could learn, with the same effort, the complete works of Beethoven, Schubert, Bach and Brahms.

[mephisto]

Why would anyone learn Finnissy's 'history of photography in sound' when they could learn, with the same effort, the complete works of Beethoven, Schubert, Bach and Brahms.

Because they like the music

I am sure someone will find people who learn Alkan idiots, because they think Mozart is much better.

Why do you learn the  Godowsky's Chopin etudes when the original are easier(asuming that you who love the Chopin-Godowsky etudes would learn some of them at some point?

Well because you like the music.

[opus10no2]

No, I play them because of the technical rewards.

Finnissy is not rewarding, only in sightreading ability.

[houseofblackleaves]

I ignore the peices that sound awful.  OC never really appealed to me, and I've listened to the whole thing twice. 

Islamy is the most difficult that I can think of that sounds decent.  In fact, very decent.  Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit maybe?  Rach 3 is probobly the hardest PC in the standard repertoire, and Senphai probobly is THE most difficult.  Xenakis didn't play the piano, right? 

[jre58591]

Senphai probobly is THE most difficult.

ive never heard of this piece. perhaps you mean synaphaï?
im not sure if its the hardest. xenakis did write a few other, similar, piano-concerto like pieces, such as eonta and erikthon. both are extremely difficult, so it may be hard to tell, unless you have played or studied all 3.

also, finnissy's piano concertos are way up there, in the same league as the aforementioned xenakis works.