World's hardest piece?

[ballade]

I think Tchaikovsky's First is a very tough one to master and play properly (all those double octaves!). Otherwise, the Chopin Etudes are among the hardest to play perfectly and beautifully, although they might not be the most technically challenging...
But above all, Mozart has to be the hardest to play in the intended manner...i think someone already said that. who agrees?

[amee]

The thing I find most difficult about playing Mozart is the simplicity and naturalness of the music.  Everything just needs to have a cetain spontaniety.  Does anyone know what I mean?

[DepravedPianist]

I am truly suprised no one mentioned shumanns tocatta. It is truly frustrating to say the least. Good luck on it, you will need it.

Peace

[ned]

I was reading the Richter interviews book by Bruno Monsaingeon, where Richter says the hardest pieces in his opinion are Scriabin's Fifth Sonata and the Liszt Mephisto Waltz. He finally dropped them from his repertoire. Probably because of those insane high-speed leaps.

In a similar vein,  Horowitz messed up the succession of leaps at the end of the second movement of the Schumann Fantasy in his 1965 return at Carnegie Hall. The "live" recording that was commercially released was doctored up -- he re-recorded the fluffed passages. Horowitz rarely missed a note so that is pretty encouraging for mere mortals!

Horowitz also said in an interview with David Dubal that he agreed that the Rach Third was the hardest concerto in the "standard" (whatever that means) repertoire.

[frederic]

As Rachmaninoff said earlier on, the Busoni Concerto is a tough one.
Lasting for 80 minutes, it is clearly the longest concerto ever written. It is in 5 movements. But the main reason why it is such a significant concerto is because in the final movement it calls for a male chorus!
Its more like a Choral Symphony with obbligato piano.
It is so well written too with the orchestra and the piano and the men's voices and is absolutely incredible.

John Ogdon made a legendary recording of it in the 60's on EMI. I suggest you look for this one if you are interested.
I got the one on Hyperion in the Romantic Piano Concerto series with Hamelin. Its not too bad either.

[jonathandodd]

Rhapsody in Blue?? Nope, try again! Anyway, I agree. Mastering the piece in the correct style is very tricky indeed, especially in early music. I also find this in pieces by Liszt, that is easy to play thunderously, but not so easy to play more lightly but dramatically, as I feel Liszt *should* be played. Technically, and I've just mentioned this on the other board, I reckon some of the etudes on the Chopin Etudes by Godowsky are the hardest ever.

JD

[jonathandodd]

Hmmm...my question marks seem to have turned into smileys!  

JD

[frederic]

Yes, if you use 3 question marks it turns into a sad face.
You can just disable the smilies.

[amee]

Maybe Bartok's second Piano Concerto?  Stephen Kovacevich said, "there is nothing more difficult than playing Bartok's Second really ferociosly.  I almost paralyzed my hand in the process of learning this piece.  One morning I woke up and I could not hold a piece of fruit in my hand because it was so overstrained".

[Noah]

Bartok's Sonata and etudes are quite challenging
Also, Schumann's Toccata and of course the good ol' Rach 3. But Mozart is the most difficult, probably because it is so subjective... I'm currently working on Schubert's sonata in A, D.664 and find it very hard to master, you need to have perfect legato (and big hands)

[amee]

What about the Scriabin sonatas?

[Irock1ce]

scriabin...........  

[allchopin]

RIGOLETTO PARAPHRASE!
this song is just insane- the whole song is pure runs in the right hand, with occaisional runs in the left hand, as well as stacatto fast octaves and descending thirds runs- OMG

[danpianoman2003]

I would have to say that Etude op. 10-5 "Black Keys" is the hardest song. It is called "Black Keys" because the key signature is almost all flats, therefore, you are playing mostly "Black Keys".

[Ktari]

I've played a lot of so-called "hard" pieces (lately, La Campanella) and it always seems daunting until you learn it... some of those "hard" pieces turn out really easy! I guess I just wanted to express the philosophy that nothing is "too hard", and that everyone can aim to play the "hardest piece" wonderfully, as long as you work hard  

[ghgjff]

danpianoman, even harder in my mind is Etude mod. 10-3 entitled "Right Hand" considering the amount of time and effort I have put forth in learning it. But you sound well on your way. If you wish, you can send me a pm and I can help you further. -ghgjff

[Hmoll]

What is the most difficult piano piece is a very subjective question.

Also, it depends on whether you are talking about the most difficult piece that people actually play, or the most difficult piece ever written period.

The most difficult piece actually written - regardless of whether anyone bothers to play it - is probably "Herma" by Ianis Xenakis.

The most difficult pieces that people actually play are: Boulez 2nd Sonata, Rach. 1st Sonata,  Bartok 2nd Concerto. You might as well add Alkan's Symphony for Solo Piano to the list, since Hamelin plays - and has recorded - this piece.
The most popular "most difficult" pieces are Gaspard de le Nuit, and Rach. 3rd Concerto, but these pieces are regularly played by college level students now.

BTW, danpianoman2003, the "Black Key" etude is not called that because of the key signature, it is called that because the right hand notes are all on black keys. Also, it is one of the easier of the Chopin etudes, so it would not be classed as the most difficult piano piece.

[Irock1ce]

chopins etudes are just hard ... period.

[eddie92099]

May I jump in here...Rach's 3rd is definitely the most technically demanding concerto I have come across (although it is more pianistic than the 2nd), far more demanding than Prokofiev's 2nd or Tschaikovsky's 1st. With regards to solo reportoire, I find the figuration at the start of Ondine harder than the rest of Gaspard (pieces such as Scarbo and Balakirev's Islamey are overrated in their difficulty).
I think Chopin's etudes are harder than Liszt's (La Campanella is daunting at first but once you get the hang of those skips...), but neither are as hard as Ligeti's! Rachmaninov's E flat minor prelude is also fairly unattemptable by most (op.23 no.9).
Transcriptions such as Stravinsky's Petrouchka or some of the Horowitz and Cziffra ones are extremely demanding also!
I am learning Prokofiev's 7th sonata at the moment which is musically demanding as well as technically - especially the second movement. I would be interested to know what other people think of this piece,
Ed

[eddie92099]

I have just started Horowitz's Carmen Variations today - not easy!
Ed

[RhiAnne]

Hey guys,

 I asked my professor this question.  And he replied that the second sonata by Boulez is the hardest piece.  Take a look at this piece, it is truly amazing.  I shall have this piece prepared by next spring.

 Well see you later.

 Bye.

[Beethoven87]

     This is my take:  I just started recently paying special attention to actually playing piano (I'm also new to the forum)...  Before, I'd spent all of my time making things up.  I realized that before you can properly write down what you want, it's easier if you know everything available to you.  Anyway, currently I'm working on only two pieces: a Chopin Etude (Opus ten, #4) and the Waldstein Sonata by Beethoven.  I've actually only gotten the third movement (I'm working through backwards for no particular reason), and really, the Waldstein just has the trills to take care of... everything else is really an afterthought.  However, after looking closely at all of the Chopin etudes, yes.  They are all pretty darn difficult.  However, the problem with the Etudes is they were WRITTEN to perfect certain techniques and experiment with ideas.  Case in point:  Opus twelve, number six: It's brutally hard until you perfect double trills and fingering, and then there's nothing to it.  Also with Opus twelve, number ten: work up your arm strength and your octave technique, and you have nothing to worry about.  So I don't think you can actually call them the most difficult pieces, because once they're learned, it's done.  The monsters are the ones that are just as hard to play every time as they were to learn, the ones that are still hard even when you know them front to back.  In that sense, the Songs without Words (and Mozart pieces too) can be hard, because you must always pay attention to the emotion and character of the piece.  In this sense, I actually (feel free to yell at me) believe the Chopin ballades to be extremely advanced peieces.  If you take, for instance, number two, just listen to the emotion and tragedy.  It's baffling, and anyone younger than the age of puberty can't even understand the depth of emotions and feelings in a piece like that.  In addition, many of them DO utilize techniques refined in Chopin's etudes.  I could listen to those till' I gathered dust, and never get tired.  Of course, then ther are Lizst etudes (Campanella and Mazeppa come readily to mind)  that are, frankly, immpossible at first site.  Still, like the Chopins, there's more to "difficulty" than mere technical elments.  Any thoughts?

[eddie92099]

La Campanella is easier than most of the Chopin etudes,
Ed

[Leporello]

Top ten most difficult solo pieces:

1. Alkan Concerto for Solo Piano
2. Beethoven Hammerklavier Sonata
3. Liszt Sonata in B minor
4. Rachmaninoff Sonata in D minor (Opus 28)
5. Brahms Opus 35 Paganini Variations
6. Alkan Symphony for Solo Piano
7. Alkan Grande Sonata Opus 33
8. Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit
9. Bach Goldberg Variations
10. Beethoven Opus 101 Sonata

Top ten most difficult concertos:

1. Busoni Opus 39 Concerto
2. Brahms Opus 83 (Second) Concerto
3. Bartok Second Concerto
4. Barber Concerto
5. Prokofiev Opus 16 (Second) Concerto
6. Tchaikovsky Opus 44 (Second) Concerto
7. Rachmaninoff Opus 30 (Third) Concerto
8. Chopin First Concerto
9. Ravel Concerto for the Left Hand
10. Brahms Opus 15 (First) Concerto

These lists were compiled based on things I've heard from other pianists as well as my own judgments based on listening to these pieces and looking at the scores.  This list is no way definitive and feel free to disagree with me.

[Roastie_FC]

Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 the Friska bit?
Lizst hurts me  

[meileng]

hmm....what about the only piano sonata of Franz Liszt?
sonata in B minor,i think it's really hard.

[thracozaag]

Hardest pieces I've ever had to perform:

Reger Variations and Fugue on a theme of Bach
Nancarrow Tango?
Scriabin 8th Sonata
Scriabin 7th Sonata
Godowsky Etudes

[eddie92099]

I was thinking about the Liszt sonata last night and think that when you look at the musical and physical demands together nothing surpasses it,
Ed

[thracozaag]

I was thinking about the Liszt sonata last night and think that when you look at the musical and physical demands together nothing surpasses it,
Ed

 It's a mountain to climb, to be sure.  I forgot to mention Sorabji on my list (not that I'm crazy enough to learn any of the major pieces).  It's impossible stuff.

[ahmedito]

You know, now that you bring up liszt, how about his march of death for piano and orchestra??? he supposedly left that monstruosity as a musical testament for pianist to come... as a reminder of his prodigious technique

[eddie92099]

I presume you mean the Totentanz. This is a fantastic piece and I am about to start learning it   ,
Ed

[xenon]

Totentanz?  Sounds like a great piece.  Is it part of any particular collection?

[meiting]

Many good suggestions. one point remains to be made - many of the suggested pieces are NOT in the standard repertoire, or at least, isn't quite humanly possible. Of those that ARE possible, and are played, the Liszt Tannhauser overture, the Rachmaninoff-Mendelssohn midsummer night's dream scherzo, the brahms paganini variations, Prok 2nd concerto, and maybe Feux Follets (at least for other people) are probably the most difficult. Ah, and Rachmaninoff 2nd concerto. Also Rachmaninoff Prelude op. 23 no. 9. And the Octave etude of Chopin. etc etc etc.

The point is, after a certain difficulty, it all depends on who's playing what - what might be difficult for someone might be insanely easy for another. Only pieces with tremendous stamina requirements would be difficult for everyone (liszt tannhauser, for instance, or Hammerklavier, or Schubert Wanderer fantasy, or Goldberg variations (with repeats), or Diabelli Variations etc).

Mozart sonatas are probably the most difficult to perform well - everything HAS to be perfect, or it'll sound like, umm, well, badly played Mozart The same could almost be said for Bach, but then one takes bad bach playing for granted nowadays..

Mei-Ting

[eddie92099]

Ah, and Rachmaninoff 2nd concerto.

...controversial!

Xenon, the Totentanz is a great piece, and people also play it (Cziffra, Argerich, Freire, Zimerman, Thibaudet etc.). It is a set of variations on the Dies Irae theme for piano and orchestra,
Ed

[Bosendorfer_214]

hate to be cliche but...Rachmaninov's 3rd concerto is pretty damn hairy.

[thracozaag]

...controversial!

 I agree. I find the 2nd more awkward than the 3rd.

[eddie92099]

Although the 3rd is certainly more pianistic than the 2nd, they are in different leagues technically,
Ed

[thracozaag]

Although the 3rd is certainly more pianistic than the 2nd, they are in different leagues technically,
Ed

 

The 3rd is BY FAR MUCH harder to learn, but the 2nd is more difficult to play (at least for me).

[xenon]

Xenon, the Totentanz is a great piece

I'll take your word for it .

and people also play it

Really?

It is a set of variations on the Dies Irae theme for piano and orchestra,
Ed

Ooh, dies irae.  Now I see why it is called Totentanz.  Some kind of death dance?

[eddie92099]

Yes..."Totentanz" being the German for "Dance of Death",
Ed

[debussy_lover]

There's no question that the Ligeti Etudes are some of the most excruciatingly difficult pieces in the repertoire.

Check out Desordre, Vertige, L'Escalier du Diable and Coloana Infinita.   Crazy stuff!  Islamey or anything else you can think of is pretty much child's play compared to these things.

Of course Ligeti himself can't play them - go figure about that one...

[shoenberg3]

First, defining "hardest piece" should come beforehand. If "hardest" mean the most notes and the most finger-wrenching piece, I would say one of the prokofiev sonatas.  And some of the Chopin etudes are quite difficult.
How about the Godowsky transcriptions? I never played those but  the reputation of it is infamous.
On the other hand, if "hardest" is defined as difficulty of making the music perfectly beautiful, relatively simple pieces such as Mozart sonatas or Bach partitas turns arduous.

[Bosendorfer_214]

I agree entirely w/ Eddie on the Rachmaninov 2nd and 3rd.  

Rachmaninov once said, "...[E]ven with my own concertos I much prefer the third, because my second is so uncomfortable to play..."

I am currently learning the 2nd.  I am kind of getting the idea of what he meant.

[becca29]

lol to whoever said Gowdosky transcriptions of the Chopin etudes.. omg yeah.. I did the... A flat major one I believe.. and that piece was incredibly difficult! mm.. I've never played it, but Liszt Campanella sounds pretty hard, but then again, so are most Liszt pieces. I actually think his transcedental etude #10 F minor is REALLY hard.. I found it a lot more difficult than the Mephisto waltz or Rach 2nd concerto, though Rach 2nd is SO pretty.. esp. the last mov. Just my 2 cents.. I've also heard the Liszt Sonata's incredibly difficult.. can't say from experience though *sigh*

[thracozaag]

lol to whoever said Gowdosky transcriptions of the Chopin etudes.. omg yeah.. I did the... A flat major one I believe.. and that piece was incredibly difficult! mm.. I've never played it, but Liszt Campanella sounds pretty hard, but then again, so are most Liszt pieces. I actually think his transcedental etude #10 F minor is REALLY hard.. I found it a lot more difficult than the Mephisto waltz or Rach 2nd concerto, though Rach 2nd is SO pretty.. esp. the last mov. Just my 2 cents.. I've also heard the Liszt Sonata's incredibly difficult.. can't say from experience though *sigh*

 Try the Etude in 3rds for the left hand, heh.

[eddie92099]

Stravinsky's own transcription of "Petroushka" has to be up there,
Ed

[Roastie_FC]

whos that freak dude who had like 7 fingers and the piece he composed can only be played with someone with 7 fingers - he was an extraordinary composer!

[Hmoll]

whos that freak dude who had like 7 fingers and the piece he composed can only be played with someone with 7 fingers - he was an extraordinary composer!

Don't know that one, but - not to hijack the thread - it reminded me of a joke:

Three Texas surgeons were playing golf together and discussing
surgeries they had performed. One of them said, "I'm the best
surgeon in Texas. A concert pianist lost 7 fingers in an accident,
I reattached them, and 8 months later he performed a private concert
for the Queen of England."

One of the others said. "That's nothing. A young man lost both arms
and legs in an accident, I reattached them, and 2 years later
he won a gold medal in field events in the Olympics."

The third surgeon said, "You guys are amateurs. Several years ago a guy
who was high on cocaine and alcohol rode a horse head-on into a train
traveling 80 miles an hour. All I had left to work with was the horse's
a@s and a cowboy hat. Now he's president of the United States.

[eddie92099]

RoastieFC - have you been watching too much "Gattaca"?
Ed

[Roastie_FC]

lol wats Gattaca??

na my friends piano teacher told me about the 7 finger guy .... have YOU been watching too mcuh Gattaca?? LOL
btw wats gattaca