Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?

[cuberdrift]

 

Is there truth in this? Why are there indeed so many Jewish and homosexual pianists?

[j_menz]

Is there truth in this? Why are there indeed so many Jewish and homosexual pianists?

The better question is why there are so many bad pianists? At least that one has evidence to support it.

[stiefel]

Horowitz was rumored to be gay himself, right?

[perfect_pitch]

Why are there indeed so many Jewish and homosexual pianists?

Okay - the Jewish pianists I can see... they are usually brought up in families of tradition that honour studying, music, and they expect their kids to excel in practically everything...

But maybe in the future he'll be corrected. Maybe the question in 10 years time is why are there so many Chinese pianists???

[lousyplayer]

But maybe in the future he'll be corrected. Maybe the question in 10 years time is why are there so many Chinese pianists???

I think the Jewish/ Chinese/ Russian pianist thing is more or less the same phenomenon. A few decades ago (probably since WWII) there was an influx of Jewish into the US through all sorts of means, but mostly science and music. Similarly, music seems to be one of the few ways chinese can earn a passport into the US nowadays, so they do whatever they can to be the best. I personally like Jewish pianists more than chinese, who seem to have different ways of thinking and musicality.

[sphince]

horowitz wasn't homosexual and if he was he definetely didn't show any sign of it which for me is enough.Same goes for richter.The time when this statement was made lots of stereotypes where born(this is no different than a stereotype) i think today there are a lot of pianists who are great whilst not being gay or jewish.Cheers 

[sevencircles]

Horowitz was rumored to be gay himself, right?

Horowitz went to a hypnotist that tried to make him straigth

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Is there truth in this? Why are there indeed so many Jewish and homosexual pianists?

I thought the quote was, "There are Three Kinds of Pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists".

[williampiano]

I thought the quote was, "There are Three Kinds of Pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists".

That's a rather odd thing for Horowitz to say, don't you think? It seems to me like he is saying, if a pianist isn't Jewish, or homosexual, then they are automatically a bad pianist.

[thalbergmad]

Okay - the Jewish pianists I can see... they are usually brought up in families of tradition that honour studying, music, and they expect their kids to excel in practically everything...

But maybe in the future he'll be corrected. Maybe the question in 10 years time is why are there so many Chinese pianists???

I guess the same answer will still apply.

Thal

[werq34ac]

Don't know very many good Chinese pianists... Either Yundi Li or Haochen Zhang is the forerunner. Leaning more towards Haochen than Yundi Li.

I don't see why people are trying to pick apart what Horowitz said. He obviously wasn't being serious and meant it as a joke. It's like they say about violists. There are only violinists pretending to be violists and bad violists.

[krajcher]

Gould, Pollini, Sokolov Argerich: They are not jewish and not homosexual and they are great pianists.

[marik1]

Gould, Pollini, Sokolov Argerich: They are not jewish and not homosexual and they are great pianists.

I am surprised that after your recent antisemitic remark towards David Helfgott you were not immediately thrown off this board. I guess, the management here is more tolerant to racism (which antisemitism essentially is) and just removed that post. In any case, I have to disappoint you, Sokolov IS a Jew.

Here is a list of famous Jewish pianists:

https://www.jinfo.org/Pianists.html

Best, M

[rachmaninoff_forever]

That's a rather odd thing for Horowitz to say, don't you think? It seems to me like he is saying, if a pianist isn't Jewish, or homosexual, then they are automatically a bad pianist.

Well it depends on the context he's saying it in.  During an interview, he was accused of being homosexual.  He denied it, then said his famous quote to convey that when it comes to music, it doesn't matter what sexual preference, race, or religion you are.

[perfect_pitch]

Gould, Pollini, Sokolov Argerich: They are not jewish and not homosexual and they are great pianists.

Sokolov's a great pianist? Really? In your opinion... do you have any recordings, youtube clips of one of his greatest performances??? (Don't tell me his Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto is good - I've heard it before and I thought it sucked)

I agree with the others though. Pollini is exceptional!!!

[p2u_]

Sokolov's a great pianist? Really? In your opinion...

One of the greatest still alive, not by opinion, but by objective pianistic and artistic parameters.

do you have any recordings, youtube clips of one of his greatest performances???

You should see him live. He doesn't like recording and, unfortunately, many of his recordings are not exactly top quality sound (blame that on the technicians).

The Beethoven - Diabelli Variations 1985 live in St. Petersburg is a nice place to get to know this giant. The dynamic range of his playing is rightout fabulous.

Paul

[marik1]

One of the greatest still alive...

I consider him one of the greatest not only still alive, but also of all times.

You should see him live.

Absolutely!!! I was lucky to attend at least a dozen of his concerts and no recordings can capture that magnetic, shattering energy, when it seems every cell of the air is vibrating together with his music making. It seems like you are put into another dimension.

I heard live many of his programs and all of them are just unforgettable--Schumann 2nd Sonata and Fantasy, Bach Preludes and Fuges and Kunst der Fuge, Rachmaninov 2nd and 3rd Concerti, Chopin Concerto no.1, Preludes, Etudes op. 25 (the very concert from which was made live recording--in the second half he was playing the most incredible Hammerklavier I ever heard, but unfortunately, they released only Etudes), Petrushka, unbelievable Rameau...

Speaking of Pollini, I was at his concert only once--I left after the first half--those were the most perfect and the most boring Beethoven Sonatas Op.27 no.1 and 2.

In my view, to understand the difference between Sokolov and Pollini it is enough to compare their Op.25 (esp. Sokolov's last 4 etudes played in one breath). Or Petrushka (again Sokolov is live--there are a few versions, including him as a 17 years old boy). For me Sokolov is just a pianist of completely different class.

Best, M

[p2u_]

in the second half he was playing the most incredible Hammerklavier I ever heard, but unfortunately, they released only Etudes, Petrushka, unbelievable Rameau...

The money sharks may have chosen not to upset the competition...

Paul

[jimbo320]

If this is true than I'm the exception to the rule. For I am neither gay, Jewish or in my opinion not a bad pianist...lol

[p2u_]

If this is true than I'm the exception to the rule. For I am neither gay, Jewish or in my opinion not a bad pianist...lol

Then you must be
1) a prodigy and
2) from Slavic descent,
otherwise your fate is most certainly sealed.
P.S.: Not my words. That's what the great teacher Leschetizky reportedly thought...

Paul

[lousyplayer]

If this is true than I'm the exception to the rule. For I am neither gay, Jewish or in my opinion not a bad pianist...lol

well my mum says I am the best pianist in the world  I kinda agree with her!

[krajcher]

Sokolov's a great pianist? Really? In your opinion... do you have any recordings, youtube clips of one of his greatest performances??? (Don't tell me his Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto is good - I've heard it before and I thought it sucked)

Every pianists, also THE GREATEST, has worse performances. Sometimes it's like that: worse performances of pianists with big names, are considered to be great only because they have big names. 

Sokolov's technique is flawless, undoubtly, and some of his perfomances are amazing, especially of baroque period (

). For me, of course it is my point of view, he is one of the most underrated pianists.

For example Gould, I don't like many of his interpretation of Bach (it's not only my opinion), they are just weird, but I don't decline that he is not one of the greatest.

Very, very often it's question of promotion that one pianist is considered great and the other is not.

By the way, I listened to his Rach concerto, I agree, I heard performances, which I liked more, but you are too censorious, writing that it sucked.


Best wishes

[krajcher]

I am surprised that after your recent antisemitic remark towards David Helfgott you were not immediately thrown off this board. I guess, the management here is more tolerant to racism (which antisemitism essentially is) and just removed that post. In any case, I have to disappoint you, Sokolov IS a Jew.
Best, M

Sorry for double reply, I didn't notice your quote.

To be honest, I was really surprised that my reply was admitted as antisemitic. In this case, also this thread is racist (of course it's not).

If Sokolov is a Jew, what is definition of being jewish? For example I am in 1/4 german, should I be admitted as german? No.

On the list, which you shared, there are many pianists, who are jewish only partly and they are considered as jewish.

And both of David Helfgott's parents were jewish. It's a fact, don't tell me that I am a racist, because you offend me.

Best wishes

[lostinidlewonder]

....And both of David Helfgott's parents were jewish. It's a fact, don't tell me that I am a racist, because you offend me.

"Too bad he is a Jew" I believe you said before your post was removed. Sounds easily racist with no room for you to sidestep.



Horowitz comment is mindless if you removed "only" then what he is quoted to have said could make sense albeit quite devoid of anything constructive. Horowitz is not really considered a great "thinker" anything he says about society to me is quite amateur.

There is in my mind a small correlation between Gay and the arts as a whole. Just like people say many male hairdressers are gay, it is not a complete truth but there is a SLIGHT correlation however no way near enough to say they mutually inclusive. Many musicians are not very good at maths, I guess Horowitz also was bad at maths. There are more Asians playing piano than Jewish people, that is just common knowledge.

[p2u_]

Horowitz comment is mindless if you removed "only" then what he is quoted to have said could make sense albeit quite devoid of anything constructive. Horowitz is not really considered a great "thinker" anything he says about society to me is quite amateur.

As a matter of fact, I think Horowitz found the question "Are you gay?" asked by the journalist in a boulevard-style interview rude, pushy and ignorant. My hunch is that he gave this famous quote as an answer because say either "Yes" or "No" in that situation would have been inappropriate. Probably Mrs. Horowitz-Toscanini wasn't around at that time; she would have known how to answer such an imprudent question. "Who are they to ask you silly questions while they should be on their knees before you..." (c)

Paul

[j_menz]

while they should be on their knees before you

That, presumably, would go some way to answering the question. 

[marik1]

And both of David Helfgott's parents were jewish. It's a fact, don't tell me that I am a racist, because you offend me.

To the post "I am proud he is Australian" your exact words were "Don't be proud--he is a Jew". Only complete ignorant could see anything other than racism in your words. I was not alone who commented your post was antisemitic. The fact itself your post was removed speaks for itself. Instead of getting offended  and playing fool with your "I was really surprised that my reply was admitted as antisemitic", just have decency to apologize.

Thanks, M

[krajcher]

I apologize everybody, who felt outraged.

[werq34ac]

"Too bad he is a Jew" I believe you said before your post was removed. Sounds easily racist with no room for you to sidestep.



Horowitz comment is mindless if you removed "only" then what he is quoted to have said could make sense albeit quite devoid of anything constructive. Horowitz is not really considered a great "thinker" anything he says about society to me is quite amateur.

There is in my mind a small correlation between Gay and the arts as a whole. Just like people say many male hairdressers are gay, it is not a complete truth but there is a SLIGHT correlation however no way near enough to say they mutually inclusive. Many musicians are not very good at maths, I guess Horowitz also was bad at maths. There are more Asians playing piano than Jewish people, that is just common knowledge.

Don't attribute the abundance of Asian pianists to talent of the Asian race. Attribute it to every stereotype of the Asian race (Top-students, good at math, striving to be a doctor, high SAT scores, etc. etc. f***ing etc.). Parental pressure and hard work. The story of Asian success in 5 words.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't actively go out of my way to check how good each Asian pianist plays, it is just a fact that there are more Asians playing piano than any other race. My dad is Chinese/Malaysian and I have taught plenty of Asian families, Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Japanese etc they usually have a much more diligent work ethic than us Westerers.

[werq34ac]

I don't actively go out of my way to check how good each Asian pianist plays, it is just a fact that there are more Asians playing piano than any other race. My dad is Chinese/Malaysian and I have taught plenty of Asian families, Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Japanese etc they usually have a much more diligent work ethic than us Westerers.

Parental pressure and hard work. Asian parents push their kids to learn the piano. As a result, there are a lot of Asians who play the piano, but also a lot who quit. The virtuosos you see are likely the result of a tiger mom breathing down their kid's neck as they practice hours a day. Occasionally you get a kid who genuinely loves the piano and is devoted to music, but more often than not, it's a tiger mom behind the technical skill.

Racial generalizations are actually demeaning even though the stereotype itself is positive. In the end our own intelligence and success is just dismissed as a part of being Asian. And then those Asians who aren't as smart as the stereotype suggests end up with a lack of self-confidence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you. I'm just saying be careful about making generalizations of various races.

[p2u_]

Parental pressure and hard work.

I don't think that cuts it as an explanation. That could account for why there are so frighteningly many BAD pianists of the typewriter kind (amateurs are out of scope here). This is usually a result of a forced approach to development in the wrong direction, mostly with the parents' "help".

Whenever I get yet another so-called prodigy, the first lesson is for the parents: One can only open doors for development, not push the student through a locked one (free after A. Schnabel). Healthy support - yes; peptalk - yes, but pressure - NO.

Let's have a look at some of the parameters that make a truly great pianist:

1) ease (no separation at all between technique and music)
2) personality (individual, beautiful sound)
3) musical intelligence (simplicity of all the lines holding the work together)
4) sensitivity and meaningful variety of detail
5) richness of texture (multiple levels of tone give a sense of depth)
6) controlled excitement
7) the ability to speak to an audience

These are all factors that CANNOT be explained by hard work and pressure. Hard work in the right direction, yes, but pressure is NEVER a key to great pianism. There are too many great pianists with a different story for that to be true.

Some things that ARE more important to explain the number of "more-than-average" pianists from certain countries or groups would be:
1) INNER drive to be the best or deep inner love for music, piano, etc.
2) the (musical and labor) culture of that people, the (musical and labor) culture of the family the pianist is raised in
3) quantity of population (in, for example, Holland with 16 million people, the chance of a great pianist being born is far less than in the mainland of China, with 1.3 billion)
4) high-quality teaching in all stages of the learning process
5) no mistakes in the learning process
6) system with severe competition, in which the less talented automatically fall out of the race,
etc., etc.

Paul

[cuberdrift]

Just out of curiosity, aren't you Westerners posting all this hatred because of a hidden jealousy? I just feel you criticize the "Asian-pressure-good-at-Math-etc." so fiercely because of this. Asians are an industrialist race which is the main reason behind their rise to a World Power.

Not that I'm praising the system, I disagree with it as much as you do.

But the intensity and frequency of anti-Asian jokes, criticisms, complaints, etc. is alarmingly high. Perhaps Americans (or maybe even Europeans, too) are just envious of their prowess?

I mean, anybody with a right mindset will normally perceive this horrible approach to Classical Music the same way, but there are so many opportunities of people to begin launching vicious attacks against the ideology, and majority pursue most of these opportunities with an amusing ferocity. If it is quite unanimous as to the negative views on the Asian agenda, why still pour out your anger? There might be some yearning and frustration in regards to their notable technique, mainly due to these work ethics.

Again, MIGHT. What do you think?

[p2u_]

Just out of curiosity, aren't you Westerners posting all this hatred because of a hidden jealousy?

Since you did not quote specifically, I have to assume the worst.

I don't think anyone here in this thread intended to express hatred towards anyone. If there's anything in my posts that suggests that, then please point me to it and I'll rephrase it (not a native speaker of English).

Thank you.

Paul

[cuberdrift]

Since you did not quote specifically, I have to assume the worst.

I don't think anyone here in this thread intended to express hatred towards anyone. If there's anything in my posts that suggests that, then please point me to it and I'll rephrase it (not a native speaker of English).

Thank you.

Paul

I wasn't moved by your post, actually it was really werq34ac's. And not just him, practically every video of instrumental technique or virtuosity has a load of comments about Asians. Even insults hurled at Asians...

[p2u_]

I wasn't moved by your post, actually it was really werq34ac's.

I've read ALL posts by werq34ac, just to make sure; he doesn't come across as anti-Asian or any other anti- for that matter. He justed pointed out that the fact that we see many rather good Asian pianists does not automatically imply that Asians are necessarily more talented than any other people or race. The reasons for seeing so many rather good Asian pianists, he holds, are "parental pressure and hard work". I gave my explanation of why I don't think this is true, not only for Asians, but for all pianists. One of the main reasons, I think, is that they make up the major part of the world's population and that their training system is such that only the best of an unbelievably huge pool for selection survive. The implication is that we, Westerners, cannot afford to waste time. There's really nothing more intended or implied.

And not just him, practically every video of instrumental technique or virtuosity has a load of comments about Asians. Even insults hurled at Asians...

Close your eyes to the comments on YouTube and other resources. Mostly only trolls and retards there commenting; some, I suspect, are even paid to do it. Look at it from the bright side: Since there are so many comments about Asians, good or bad, they are obviously interesting enough to talk about (to ignore them would be worse) and it *is* a power to be reckoned with...

Paul

[werq34ac]

I wasn't moved by your post, actually it was really werq34ac's. And not just him, practically every video of instrumental technique or virtuosity has a load of comments about Asians. Even insults hurled at Asians...

For your information, I'm asian, and I pretty much fit the stereotype. 4.5 GPA on a 4-point scale (weighted of course), taking as many AP courses as I possibly can etc. etc. Don't think I'm jealous of Asian success. I'm fine with my own success, though we'll see how successful I am as college applications approach.

Instrumental technique/virtuosity have to be some of the stupidest videos on youtube. No one gives a damn how fast some kid can play the piano. There's plenty of kids like him/her out there. They achieve nothing more than confirm the fact that technique is about 40% of making music and 40% sounds like utter crap. Not to say that 40% isn't important, it's an entire 40%, but there's another 60% out there. Anyway I digress from my main point

Asians have this image of success almost to the point where our own intelligence is dismissed as Asian. It absolutely kills self-confidence in Asians who are below the "Asian Average=A" A B is considered B for Bad because it's already below average. My point is that these stereotypes are destructive although you may think it flattery.



Actually I have no idea what I'm saying, I'm just writing. I guess I don't have a coherent point. Just that stereotypes are destructive influences and don't give too much credit to Asians for their intelligence. A lot of it is just hard work and everyone is capable of that. As Obama said, "if the Koreans can do it, so can we"

[thalbergmad]

Reasons why there aren't many great English pianists.

1. Too many children in single parent families.
2. Lack of parental pressure as the father is in prison and the mother a heroin addict.
3. Worthless education which means many children leave school with only a sufficient command of the English language to complete benefit forms.
4. People like David Beckham are considered to be role models.
5. Most kids start their own family at about 14.
6. Non existent musical instruction at school which means the most children can aspire to is to be humiliated on Britain's Got Talent.
7. Very few decent piano teachers.
8. Mylene Klass is considered to be a pianist.

Thal

[cuberdrift]

For your information, I'm asian, and I pretty much fit the stereotype. 4.5 GPA on a 4-point scale (weighted of course), taking as many AP courses as I possibly can etc. etc. Don't think I'm jealous of Asian success. I'm fine with my own success, though we'll see how successful I am as college applications approach.

Instrumental technique/virtuosity have to be some of the stupidest videos on youtube. No one gives a damn how fast some kid can play the piano. There's plenty of kids like him/her out there. They achieve nothing more than confirm the fact that technique is about 40% of making music and 40% sounds like utter crap. Not to say that 40% isn't important, it's an entire 40%, but there's another 60% out there. Anyway I digress from my main point

Asians have this image of success almost to the point where our own intelligence is dismissed as Asian. It absolutely kills self-confidence in Asians who are below the "Asian Average=A" A B is considered B for Bad because it's already below average. My point is that these stereotypes are destructive although you may think it flattery.



Actually I have no idea what I'm saying, I'm just writing. I guess I don't have a coherent point. Just that stereotypes are destructive influences and don't give too much credit to Asians for their intelligence. A lot of it is just hard work and everyone is capable of that. As Obama said, "if the Koreans can do it, so can we"

Quite true, it also takes an Asian to recognize Asian classical music skills.

As for the article I read, it says that the reason behind these masses of "Prodigies" are tiger parents. Parents who force their children to go to concerts, play ONLY the piano or violin (which both offer the opportunity for "soloist superstardom"), and practice as much as possible. These people are not musicians - they are robots. ROBOTS.

They go sit at the piano, relax their hands, and play for several hours - without knowing what they actually are really doing. To quote someone from that article, who suffered from this syndrome, said something like "I did not really do music because I liked it, or I found it artistically pleasing, but I did it...because I just was used to doing it. It's a routine. It's something to do, not something to enjoy." What is that? THAT IS NOT AN ARTIST - THAT'S A *** HYPNO-ZOMBIE.

I do hope the fantastic notions of Classical Music will never be deconstructed by these human player pianos. But then again, as the article says, perhaps maturity will remove Asiastics from this terrible habit. Perhaps they will learn - I hope they do.

By the way, I am Asian too. But West Asian.

Regards.

[philb]

I believe it was Alexander Serov, during the times of Anton Rubinstein, that had referred to the Moscow Conservatory as the "Jewish Conservatory".

[p2u_]

I believe it was Alexander Serov, during the times of Anton Rubinstein, that had referred to the Moscow Conservatory as the "Jewish Conservatory".

He not only referred to Moscow; his anti-semitic remarks were also about St. Petersburg. But how wrong he was: those conservatories never brought about the "positive harm" to Russia he had predicted, but rather, to this day, serve as some of the greatest music conservatories of the world with access for anyone who deserves it, whatever his/her race or nationality.
Anton Rubinstein, Alexander Serov, and Vladimir Stasov: The struggle for a national musical identity in nineteenth-century Russia

Paul

[pianist1976]

Is there truth in this? Why are there indeed so many Jewish and homosexual pianists?

Hahahaha. This old Horowitz had a very special sense of humor I think he was (and still is) mocking us. They say that the intelligent person is who can laugh about him/herself, and that's what I think this exceptional artist did when he said that sentence, having in account that he was both Jewish... and homosexual. It is well documented that he received an electro-shock therapy in order to change his sexual preferences, and he had a few male asistants who were a little more than simple collaborators (you can read Harold C. Schönberg and Piero Rattalino books about Horowitz).

About the non musicality of asians that someone mentioned before, I don't think they are much less musical than their western partners. Anyone who attended a national or international competition can enjoy and be delighted by the lack of taste and the lack of expression, maturity or artistry of thousands of pianists from everywhere in the world, from Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France to USA, Japan, China, Korea... The lack of musicality is not an exclusive characteristic of Asian pianists. It's not a good thing that in many top conservatoires in the world the pupils compete, as if music was a car race, to play Chopin's prelude no. 16 faster that Argerich without any other artistic criteria (this just one random example as there are infinite others).

Let's listen to the person, not the country s/he is from. One of my favorite pianists is Mitsuko Uchida, and she is... let me think... Japanese! You can like her playing or not, it's a matter of taste. But you can't say she isn't musical or a pianola.

[krajcher]

Concerning to asians, there is something in it, that they don't have any ingenious, top pianist (I mean on the level of Rubinstein, Richter, Gould etc.), although they work hard, they are musical and love what they do.

For example, in Chopin Piano Competition, 60%-70% competitors are asian. But in last edition, none of them didn't succeed to the finals.

We can look at it inversely. Could european manage to understand asian music as well as asians? I doubt.

Best wishes

 

[p2u_]

Concerning to asians, there is something in it, that they don't have any ingenious, top pianist (I mean on the level of Rubinstein, Richter, Gould etc.), although they work hard, they are musical and love what they do.

Just imagine all those Asian pianists who study in the West and then go back home to share what they learned. They will need some more time to absorb the culture completely, but I'm VERY optimistic about the developments. On the other hand, I'm not so optimistic about the tendency in many, many Western countries I have been to to prefer and nurture pianists "from far away" at the expense of their own local talents.

Paul

[lostinidlewonder]

..... I'm just saying be careful about making generalizations of various races.

I could also say Chinese eat more rice than Japanese, simply because there are more of them. This is the same logic I am using when it comes to the amount of Asians who play piano compared to Jews, which obviously is simple to understand. I am not saying all Asians are good at the piano, just the simple fact that more of them play than Jews for example, so Horowitz missed out on a larger group in his little quote.

[p2u_]

I am not saying all Asians are good at the piano, just the simple fact that more of them play than Jews for example, so Horowitz missed out on a larger group in his little quote.

One cannot take seriously what Horowitz said. He quoted a rather stupid stereotype of his time to protect himself from harassment by a journalist. But just for the sake of argument, let's continue along the road of the "genetic problem":

First of all, I don't think there were any internationally successful Asian pianists around when Horowitz made that "memorable" quote, so we may safely assume that they would have all gone into the group "bad", together with, let's say, all the Russians except one, because Horowitz also said the following:

Of the Russian pianists, I like only one, Richter

Richter was NOT a jew, and he was NOT gay; [strictly speaking he was not even Russian, because he came from the Ukraine and his father was German!], but "all the Russians" (= pianists from the Soviet Union) MUST have included both gay and Jewish pianists (among others). Now, how could V. Horowitz have liked a "bad" pianist?

In other words, taking this quote seriously and argue in favor or against it leads nowhere. As a matter of fact, with the kind of word twisting I just demonstrated (hidden assumptions), you can launch a very successful political career...

Paul

[forte88]

I think the best pianists are composers/improvisers as well as pianists. Looking at my favorite composers I'd have to conclude(with the exception of Chopin/Saint Saens) that they're German. But that's highly subjective of course, others will think Russians are the best.
Chinese classical music is painful to the ears, so I don't rate Chinese music very highly. Jewish composers aren't very high on the list either nor Russians(with the exception of Tchaikovsky who wasn't just homosexual but a pedophile as well )
Sure Russians, Chinese and Jewish pianists are wellknown because they're forcefed from a very young age, but IMO the creativity is lacking(perhaps something to do with the culture?)
so I'd say he's wrong

[p2u_]

Tchaikovsky who wasn't just homosexual but a pedophile as well

Off-topic, but you force me to do this.

I'd rather not go there. This is a nice one for the Thought Police (c), of course, but have you ever seen conclusive evidence of him practising either or both?

From what I have seen, I can only conclude that it is all unsupported speculation and misguided interpretation by certain people with an agenda. I base my conclusion on the following (just a few points because I don't want to waste too much space):

* First of all, translation problems from Russian into English or other languages, e.g.: the English expression "I know this business inside out" is translated into Russian such, that if you translate it back into English, it will get you in jail in most Western countries for animal abuse ["Ya na eto delo sobaku syel"];
* Change in meaning of certain words through time, e.g. a "friend" now may have a completely different meaning from a "friend" at that time;
* Highly ambigious phrases like "my natural inclinations" (in Tchaikovsky's diary) may well have referred to his passion for alcohol, and not to his so-called homosexuality;
* Men kissing each other in his culture, in the Soviet Union and even in some places in the West had a completely different meaning from how it is regarded in the West NOW. Or can one call Khrushchev's kissing Van Cliburn (to the latter's embarrassment) in 1958 an act of homosexuality? Or Beethoven's kissing the prodigy Franz Liszt an act of pedophilia? By the way, Beethoven must have been a most fervent kisser; he is also reported to have kissed his 76-year old teacher Haydn on the hands and on the forehead. I'm too limited in my vocabulary of English, though, to know how one would call such an "inclination";
* Certain "inclinations" may be latent, but not practised openly. After all, both acts were and are severe crimes in Russia. Anyone who has ever been in a Russian jail will know what I mean.
etc. etc. etc.

Therefore, I think that a little more consideration towards geniuses of art would be appropriate. These thoughts are coming from a perfectly straight guy who refuses to teach children when the parents are not present because he doesn't want to fall into the trap Mikhail Pletnev, Michael Jackson and others got themselves into; even if you can prove conclusively that you did NOT engage in such practises, the stain on your reputation lasts forever.

Paul

[forte88]

Off-topic, but you force me to do this.

I'd rather not go there. This is a nice one for the Thought Police (c), of course, but have you ever seen conclusive evidence of him practising either or both?

Not that professor Robert Greenberg from the Teaching Company is conclusive evidence, but I presume he researched it that the brothers Tchaikovsky had a predilection for young boys of around 13 years old and would often engage in a menage a trois. It's not the kind of thing you forget quickly. So what if he was? It's not the kind of thing you can choose. It's the music I like, I wouldn't stop liking it because he's pedophile

[p2u_]

So what if he was? It's not the kind of thing you can choose. It's the music I like, I wouldn't stop liking it because he's pedophile.

Lieutenant Columbo would have a hard time trying to unravel the historical kung fu around Tchaikosvky's love life and the more so around his death. There's a great deal of fabrication there. Still, presumption of innocence does not apply in this case (it was and is a crime, you know). I find that hard to digest.

The problem is that when you say "he was this or he was that" with the air of factual certainty, then certain (super-religious?) people will indeed take that as the truth and may want to "protect" their children from the perceived bad influence of the composer's/artist's output. How sad, when in hindsight it may turn out to have all been fabricated...

P.S.: Just imagine: You want to send a link to a performance or produce a disc of the famous and very beautiful "Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (Russian-Orthodox choir music), but you are required by law to write the following disclaimer:

We must warn minor listeners that parental discretion is advised: Many consider St. John Chrysostom a racist, and the honorable and renowned professor Robert Greenberg considers Pyotr Tchaikovsky a pedophile.

Paul