I'm stuck in terms of what to learn

[qpalqpal]

I have had two piano teachers. THe first I had for about 1 month. She was a church organist, and she didn't teach a lot well. she simply went through music with me, not really technique, and she was elderly so I didn't think she had much to offer, so I left her. Next, I had another teacher for about half a year, but I really didn't like it. She was a jazz musician from Berklee, and didn't have experience with classical music. So I left her recently too. It only seems more and more that there isn't a chance for me to become a better pianist (I am 14). So I have been teaching myself... a lot. I've learned a lot on my own too, remarkably. I can play almost all the scales up three octaves at decent speed. Here is my repertoire:

• Chopin Waltz op. 32 no. 2
• Bach Invention in D minor
• Clementi 1st movenmt of sonatina op. 36 no. 1 
• Debussy Arabesque no. 1 (yes, I know, quite a leap)
• Im learning: The girl with the flaxen hair, and the c minor prelude from bach's wtc I

Here is my problem: I don't know what is my skill, kind of. What will I be able to tackle next? Am I a quite advanced pianist (doubt it), or way worse than I though>? I need suggestions of repertoire to know what I should learn next, or currently. I am musically depressed at this point because I see know chance of improving or becoming a decent pianist. PLEASE, HELP ME! Ask me questions if you need clarification.

[j_menz]

You live in Boston, right? It should be pretty easy for you to find a new "classical" teacher. I suggest you do that, and stick with them for a bit. That is the best way to get to where you want to go.

[qpalqpal]

Okay... The thing is, it is very difficult for me to find a teacher. its not as easy as searching on google. Also, I don't know who is good, and its hard to find a piano teacher with the requirements:

Must be reasonably nearby, train accessible
Teaches classical, specifically focused on the Romanticism era (if possible)
Is strict/firm, i.e he/she corrects subtle errors, and makes sure i master what needs to be mastered etc.
Cost!! I definitely have a budget 

With the experience I have had, i have no hope of finding a teacher, and Im quite skeptical.. So..
I need help to teach myself.. but I guess it is seriously frowned upon. I agree, however, that I won't get far without a teacher. BUT, I need to do something while I don't have one, right.?
AARGH! HELp

[qpalqpal]

I just spoke to my mother, and she told me that we are in no position to pay piano classes. My mother really wants a teacher for me and I know she supports my musical interest, but... Its difficult, as you can see..

I got into a high school conservatory program, that is extremely good and exclusive, nbut I chose another school, which doesn't have piano instruction like I want...

[firepanda]

I would advise you to start to learn the C minor fugue as well, since it is an important form in your development as a pianist.  It will be a massive leap, however.  Fugues are always difficult.

[qpalqpal]

Well.. I know fugues have a different learning technique, so can someone guide me as to how to do it? I don't want to develop bad habits.

[qpalqpal]

Okay.. well, I give up. 

[danhuyle]

If you want to be good, learn scales and arpeggios (all positions) in all keys.

Bach Prelude & Fugue in C minor from book 1 is by far the easiest in comparison to the other fugues IMO.

Is there a syllabus in the US? Australia has AMEB syllabus, then there's ABRSM for other countries.

[qpalqpal]

Ha ha ha... well i learned all my scales, major and minor, (24 in total) yesterday, and I'm starting arpeggios. So I'm not just a beginner completely. And thank you for encouraging me with the piece. I think I will begin the fugue today.

[scherzo123]

Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.1 and 2, Waltz Op.64 No.1 and 2, Liszt's Liebestraum No.2, Schumann's Kinderszenen Op.15, 3 Romances Op.28, Mozart's Piano Sonata No.11 (3rd mvt.), a Bach French Suite, Gershwin Prelude No.2, Rachmaninoff Prelude Op.3 No.2, maybe a Scriabin prelude from Op.11... 

[qpalqpal]

Hmmm... YES! I have the 24 preludes by Skrjabin! Which do you recommend first to get my feet wet.? And how should I go about learning it?

[outin]

You never mentioned how long you have played the piano, but you have had 7 months of teaching altogether right? I would think most pieces by Scriabin may be a bit too hard for you to learn on your own, if you really want to play them well. There's a lot of nice but much easier romantic music out there...

[qpalqpal]

Okay... I m not really so sure as to how many years EXACTLY, but i started when I was 8-10 when I got an electric piano. I have acquired a certain dexterity in my fingers which is definitely not super beginner. I am learning bach's prelude in c minor from the WTC. Anyways, I began with an upright piano a year and a half ago and have been playing quite often, every single day. So all in all, i probably have the experience of a two year playing student about. Does that help?

[chopin2015]

I'd say go for some etudes. Play something really technical. Pick 5 and work on 3. That should keep you a little busy every day, and help your technique.

[ajspiano]

more inventions
heller etudes

Also, https://www.richardormesher.com/sites-iptg/contributions/valerie_langfield/rp-05.htm

anything there. thats ABRSM grade 5 since the dawn of ABRSM..  though i don't think its been updated lately.. (could be wrong)

[piano_anne]

When you are learning the fugue, try playing each voice separately (and sing along so you really get the notes in your head) Once you can play each one alone, then slowly try to put them together (you could even try just two together, then add in the rest one at a time).  That way you won't miss any notes.

Maybe you would also like to try playing some of the Bach 3 part sinfonias.  I think they are usually a bit easier than the fugues from the WTC, but more challenging than the invention you already know.

Good luck!  I hope that no matter what you continue to play and enjoy music and the piano.  It's such a beautiful world to be part of!

[outin]

Hmmm... YES! I have the 24 preludes by Skrjabin! Which do you recommend first to get my feet wet.? And how should I go about learning it?

Well, I think these are generally considered the most accessible of the 24 preludes:
op 11-2
op 11-4
op 11-9
op 11-15

IMO these are not among the best of the set. But 11-4 is pretty nice so I think I'll take on that one as soon as I feel ready.

How to learn it? Can't help you much there I'm afraid

[qpalqpal]

Well, I didn't really learn the invention 4 with the proper "learning". I just learned it, and I play it terribly. Its choppy, and I didn't take my time to practice slowly or hands separate. I learned from that. So I'm going to leave the fugue for later, and do the first invention, but actually analyze it so that I can play it well.

I started playing Scriabin's 4th prelude, the "famous" one, but first of all, I didn't think it was that pretty. I liked it somewhat, my mom said it was ugly in a sense :0. Haha, its okay, I play what I like.

And études? like Chopin études??? My goodness, no! I don't know if I am at that level. How much experience do you need to play that?

And also, if anyone cares, or if this might help, my goal in life is to play the first ballade of chopin, even if it takes me 10 years before starting. I love it. Or the fourth

[chopin2015]

are there any etudes(doesn't have to be Chopin but Rachmaninoff music scares me-he had huge hands) that you love the way they sound and think it would be fun to play?
What's the big deal, anything worth having is hard to have. you need to challenge yourself soon, or you will be stuck playing preludes. Also, perhaps try third movement of Beethoven Moonlight sonata. Im suggesting fast pieces that will require you to build muscle in your hands, for endurance. Just dont hurt yourself, but I think a little bit of an etude a day keeps the hannon away. hah.

[qpalqpal]

The Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 1 is beautiful, I adore it, really, but its diffiuclut. What do you think??

[scherzo123]

I started playing Scriabin's 4th prelude, the "famous" one, but first of all, I didn't think it was that pretty. I liked it somewhat, my mom said it was ugly in a sense :0. Haha, its okay, I play what I like.

Scriabin Prelude Op.11 No.11 is the pretty and famous prelude.

[m1469]

(...) even if it takes me 10 years before starting.

Yet, it doesn't have to and that is ultimately your choice.

[qpalqpal]

Well... I understand, but what I am saying is that I'm building up to being able to tackle a ballade.

[chopin2015]

op 25 no 1 is easy on the left hand, so I don't think it would be asking yourself too much to give it a go.

[qpalqpal]

Alright, I have COMPLETE doubts that a Chopin etude is either in my reach or worth my time as a semi-beginner. If someone disagrees, go ahead and explain to me.

[scherzo123]

Alright, I have COMPLETE doubts that a Chopin etude is either in my reach or worth my time as a semi-beginner. If someone disagrees, go ahead and explain to me.

Some of Chopin's etudes are totally accessible:

Etude Op.10 No.3
Etude Op.10 No.6
Etude Op.10 No.11
Etude Op.10 No.12
Etude Op.25 No.1
Etude Op.25 No.2
Etude Op.25 No.7
Etude Op.25 No.9
Etude Op.25 No.12

If you want me to explain, private message me, thank you. 

[chopin2015]

I will disagree with you about op 25 no 12. The left hand is demanding. It would be a longer term goal for a beginner, the left hand is dense.

[scherzo123]

I will disagree with you about op 25 no 12. The left hand is demanding. It would be a longer term goal for a beginner, the left hand is dense.

It fits the hand, like the right hand. Plenty of slow practice is needed, even for the very, very advanced players.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I will disagree with you about op 25 no 12. The left hand is demanding. It would be a longer term goal for a beginner, the left hand is dense.

But the left hand is the same as the right hand for like the whole piece.

This is what I did.  I played the left and right hand in chords.  And once you get that up to speed, you break it up and begin to arpeggiate it.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Alright, I have COMPLETE doubts that a Chopin etude is either in my reach or worth my time as a semi-beginner. If someone disagrees, go ahead and explain to me.

Hey why don't you try Chopin prelude No. 4?  I think it's a really beautiful work.  

Or you can try Chopin's nocturne in C# minor.  You should be able to manage everything.  But the scale thing at the very end it kinda pushing it.  It's just a C# minor scale but it's really fast.  I think it would be good for your development.

But if you really wanna try a Chopin etude, try Op. 10 No. 3.  That's pushing it quite a bit.  So I don't really think you should try it.  eeeh, maybe.  kinda.  Nah.  Maybe...  But if you want to, go ahead.  Don't ever be afraid to learn something you like just because it's difficult!

OR...

If you wanna try something different, then how about Scriabin prelude Op. 67 No. 1?

You have to stretch, but it's really slow

[davidjosepha]

Or you can try Chopin's nocturne in C# minor.

No no no no no no no no noooooo

I must insist you do not do that.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

No no no no no no no no noooooo

I must insist you do not do that.

Why not? 

I think he should be able to manage this.

[davidjosepha]

Why not? 

I think he should be able to manage this.

I'm sure he could, but I detest the piece

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I'm sure he could, but I detest the piece

As much as I detest Bach? 

I think not...

No but seriously though, it shouldn't be too hard for him.  He said he knows all of his scales, so I think this would be almost perfect for him.  And he hasn't listened to it yet I assume, so... yeah.

[ajspiano]

Wow.

Chopin etudes huh? Lets just re-read the original post as cliff notes.

14 years old
2 non classical, potentially mediocre teachers
Total lesson time ~7 months
Past experience with a small amount of intermediate repertoire
Largely self taught

Also, we have not seen any performances to know if the OP has learnt a quality performance of any of the current repertoire and infact, he has stated that in the case of the invention that he plainly hasn't.

Really, Chopin Etudes? Thrown around in a "they aren't that hard" manner based on your own personal experiences with them and forgetting that having learnt them they seem a lot easier to you that they actually are to a less experienced pianist. Especially one without a technical grounding.

OP - if you havent, go read Chang, pianofundamentals.com
Try more Bach as I said earlier
If you are looking to do Chopin - preludes 4,6,7,15,20 as a potential introduction and PM me if you would like the complete list of grade 5/6 Chopin, ~30 pieces.

If you attempt a Chopin étude expect problems and have strategies to fix them (you'll find some of those in Chang). See if you can get Sandor or Fink for further help, these are books that discuss tehnique in detail.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Wow.

Chopin etudes huh? Lets just re-read the original post as cliff notes.

14 years old
2 non classical, potentially mediocre teachers
Total lesson time ~7 months
Past experience with a small amount of intermediate repertoire
Largely self taught



Really, Chopin Etudes? Thrown around in a "they aren't that hard" manner based on your own personal experiences with them and forgetting that having learnt them they seem a lot easier to you that they actually are to a less experienced pianist. Especially one without a technical grounding.

+1

[qpalqpal]

Thank you ajspiano. YOU get me perfectly. PERFECTLY. To tell you the absolute truth, almost everything I have learned is very mediocre in quality. It sounds good on a grand in some extent, but nothing at performance quality. I had waltz op. 32 no. 2 at a pretty decent performing level;, but even that. Thank you for telling everyone who I am, I didn't know how to put it.

+1 me too

And you guys are very helpful all, though you have VERY contrasting tastes and opinions, which is confusing

But keep arguing, I like this, it helps a lot

[davidjosepha]

Really, Chopin Etudes? Thrown around in a "they aren't that hard" manner based on your own personal experiences with them and forgetting that having learnt them they seem a lot easier to you that they actually are to a less experienced pianist. Especially one without a technical grounding.

These threads always turn into "Let me suggest a piece I just played or am currently playing regardless of the person asking's ability level."

[scherzo123]

But the left hand is the same as the right hand for like the whole piece.

This is what I did.  I played the left and right hand in chords.  And once you get that up to speed, you break it up and begin to arpeggiate it.

me toooooooo 

[qpalqpal]

MY goodness. 

[scherzo123]

It looks like I just wasted my time giving you a private message on the etudes. -.-

[qpalqpal]

It looks like I just wasted my time giving you a private message on the etudes. -.-

NO NO  NO!! I still haven't decided, and regardless, I'm keeping that in my archives to refer to it when I choose etude. THANKS A LOT 

[chopin2015]

OP 25 no 12 is not a bad idea. Just think about how much technique you want to work on. I like your choice for op 25 no 1 too.

[scherzo123]

NO NO  NO!! I still haven't decided, and regardless, I'm keeping that in my archives to refer to it when I choose etude. THANKS A LOT 

Etudes can build your technique! It's an etude, which means, "a study". Chopin composed it to help you! I you want more suggestions on what other pieces to learn or advice, private message me  .

[ajspiano]

It looks like I just wasted my time giving you a private message on the etudes. -.-

Not likely, anything learned is valuable. While subjective, I didn't think you're assessment of "accessible" etudes was wrong. Just not appropriate for the OP right now.

....

@qpalqpal - Incidently, if you are not aware.. 

The Inventions are actually composition studies rather than just a collection of pieces (though I suspect you may have discovered this).

There is a great deal of information available on the forum about them, and bach intended them to be learnt in a specific order, 1, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13..  to get you started (should keep you going a while if you do all of them [ not compulsory obviously ] )

Aside from that, if you're looking for a study..  there is heller, as I mentioned before. Op. 45/47 you can find scores for these at IMSLP. 45/9 infact (and I can't believe I find myself saying this a 3rd time on this forum in only a few weeks) is remarkably like chopin 25/1 (probably based on) but far easier.

here is the set - https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/9/9c/IMSLP10211-Heller_-_Op.45_-_25_Etudes.PDF

Also
Clementi - Gradus ad Parnassum
Hummel - Op. 125.

These are 2 more sets of etudes that will pose a challenge, and may typically precede Chopin etudes in a balanced program of study. There is also a old buried thread floating around somewhere than contains a gigantic list of "etude sets" ranging from easy to obscenely difficult. You may be able to locate it with the search function.

Chopin etudes are not just technical etudes..  you don't just fiddle with them to make you a better pianist. They are advanced concert repertoire. As musically involved as they are technically, and while you may get through the notes, a quality performance of them will take a very long time and far more effort and thought than you will previously have even considered possible. If you're happy with a half effort, fine, go for it ..but if you want to be able to play them like a professional I suggest you better prepare yourself.

[j_menz]

Disregard any suggestion of a Chopin etude for the time being.  

What you should do:

More Bach 2 part inventions, then some Preludes (only) from the Little Preludes & Fugues, then some 3 Part inventions, then a fugue or two from the 18 book, then look at moving on to a Prelude and (3 part only) fugue from the WTC.

Finish the whole of the Clementi Sonatina, then do the complaete Op 36 setr. Then, some Khulau Sonatinas, then either a Clementi Sonata, a Haydn one of a Mozart one.

Do some Scarlatti sonatas.

If you want to do some Chopin, the Preludes already mentioned are OK, maybe a Mazurka or two (pick a slow one), or the Op Post Nocturne.

That should keep you busy for a while.

[scherzo123]

Eh, keep my information, though, for the future. But Op.25 No.12 is accessible...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Eh, keep my information, though, for the future. But Op.25 No.12 is accessible...

Well anything is accessible for the future.  The question is how far in the future.


No but yeah, dude just do a Chopin prelude.  And then after that try the C# minor nocturne. 

Just do it dude...

[chopin2015]

LOL
ajspiano,

HELLer etudes sound scary...

[scherzo123]

Chopin etudes are not just technical etudes..  you don't just fiddle with them to make you a better pianist. They are advanced concert repertoire. As musically involved as they are technically, and while you may get through the notes, a quality performance of them will take a very long time and far more effort and thought than you will previously have even considered possible. If you're happy with a half effort, fine, go for it ..but if you want to be able to play them like a professional I suggest you better prepare yourself.

-.- What I meant is that you should just steadily learned the notes and play them slowly, then add pedal and colors and such.