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Topic: What do you guys think of pirating?  (Read 4209 times)

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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What do you guys think of pirating?
on: August 16, 2012, 01:36:46 PM
I remember watching a video on youtube.  I think it was Rach sonata 1 first movement by Valentina Lisitsa. :-*  And she got into an argument with this one guy about pirating recordings.  The guy she was arguing with supported pirating, while Valentina didn't.  But of course Valentina won the argument!  I mean, come on!  She's freaking Valentina Lisitsa!  She wins everything by default!


No but yeah, ANYWAYS, this is what I do.  If I hear something I like, I get it off of youtube.  Because I think it's kinda stupid how you can watch youtube videos all you like, but you can't download them on your Ipod.  I mean, come on now.  Seriously?  But I get my stuff off of youtube unless I can find a better rendition of itunes or something.  But since everything is on youtube, I get almost all of my stuff from there.

SO...  What do you guys think about this issue?  I remember seeing this meme where the guy who's the owner of megaupload gets like life in prison, while some other guy who killed his wife and kids gets only like 27 years in prison. 

I think this whole pirating thing is stupid. 
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Offline iansinclair

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 02:08:22 PM
Speaking for myself, I can't approve of pirating.  That said, one must make a distinction between, for an example, downloading a video or recording such as you or I might make and post on YouTube and one which, for instance, Valentina Lisitsa made commercialy.  In the former instance, when we posted it, there was an intention or a thought (or should have been) that it might be popular and folks might want to download it for themselves.  In the latter, instance, the recording was made -- probably at some considerable expense -- as part of the profession of the individual, and with an expectation that she would be compensated (PAID) for her effort.

Many musicians, both classical and popular, make a good portion of their income from recordings (now I will agree that the income of a good many pop musicians is obscenely high, but that's another problem altogether).  Classical musicians, in particular, are not usually particularly wealthy folk.  When you pirate a recording, you are depriving them of a portion of that income. 

It isn't legal, and it shouldn't be.

More to the point, it simply isn't morally or ethically correct, and that should bother you.

In my humble opinion...
Ian

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 02:19:17 PM
In the latter, instance, the recording was made -- probably at some considerable expense -- as part of the profession of the individual

More to the point, it simply isn't morally or ethically correct, and that should bother you.

In my humble opinion...

Well yeah, Valentina has like no recordings of anything for sale.  I've been waiting for freaking two years for her to release her Rachmaninoff project!

I definitely think the punishment for pirating is WAY too severe.  Murders and rapists often don't get punished as severely as pirates.

I would much have a pirate walking around than a murderer.  wouldn't you?
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Offline outin

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 02:22:16 PM
Pirating and copyright....Very complex issue. Wrote a paper on the juridical implications of P2P sharing once.

I am ambivalent. I understand the need for intellectual property rights. Without it the artists and the publishers who are also needed would have had a hard time making a living. But on then other hand most of the money earned from copyrights do not go to artists anymore, they go to the huge companies that own a huge part of our cultural heritage. This can also affect artists, because some modern art forms include sampling other works just like the artists in the past loaned from others and developed the works further. Only now it is often illegal and it's impossible to even get permission to use something because of the complicated structure of copyright ownership.

So to be honest I feel there is need for the pirate movement as a social phenomena. I personally buy my music because I find it more comfortable and the quality is usually better which is important for me. But there was a time when I loaded a lot of illegal stuff and I certainly did not feel bad at all. I would not have been able to buy because I didn't have the income I do now.

I think copyright laws and the way they are applied should be changed. There's need for compensation for someone's work but also the need to allow common cultural heritage to be shared by people without ridiculous law suits which are only meant to make an example and criminals of ordinary people who want to enjoy culture. Shorter instead of longer periods for copyright. Also any law inforcement should be targeted to those who actually make money from pirating, not your average Joe who downloads a few songs to his computer

Offline iansinclair

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 03:34:25 PM
I think copyright laws and the way they are applied should be changed. There's need for compensation for someone's work but also the need to allow common cultural heritage to be shared by people without ridiculous law suits which are only meant to make an example and criminals of ordinary people who want to enjoy culture. Shorter instead of longer periods for copyright. Also any law inforcement should be targeted to those who actually make money from pirating, not your average Joe who downloads a few songs to his computer

Couldn't agree with you more.  The penalties for the average Joe, as you put it, are significantly too severe (I might add that, IMHO, the penalties for rapists and murderers are much too lenient, but that's really another topic).  The problem is, of course, as you are well aware, the folks who expedite the pirating (and sometimes make a fortune off of it) are usually based in jurisdictions which neither have the will nor the laws to make prosecution possible -- so it is impossible to go after them.  And, I might add, that those folks have no discernible morals or ethics whatsoever.  "Is it legal?" or "can I get away with it?" are not the same questions as "is it right?".

There is, I might add, an economic problem, too: the existence of and easy accessibility of a pirate recording of some performer will certainly reduce the potential sale (and raise the price of, if it's made at all) of a legitimate recording of the same performer.  The problem here is that it is unlikely in the extreme that the pirate recording will approach the quality of the legitimate one, which compromises the options for those of us who desire a quality recording.

There are no easy answers.  As has been said, the present copyright system (and, in another area, patent system) just does not work well.  Unfortunately, it is fundamentally an ethical and moral question, not a legal question, and time and time again one can find examples of the rule that it is impossible to legislate morals and ethics...
Ian

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 03:45:33 PM
I don't support piracy. I think it's wrong. But I do it anyway. I'm not going to try to justify it like "Oh, I'm only taking from the filthy rich, like Robinhood" like a lot of people try to. The reason I pirate music is because I love partaking in huge amounts of music and I have no reasonable way to pay for it. I have close to 15,000 tracks in iTunes, much of it classical, and I have nowhere near enough money to buy that much. I used to buy CDs when I really liked an album or recording, but that was a pitiful effort. I now own 100-200 CDs, which makes up less than 10% of my music.

As for what outin said about quality, I usually make sure my music is 320kbps mp3s or FLAC, so very good quality, better than the quality of iTunes/Amazon mp3 purchases.

Honestly, rach_forever, if you're downloading music from YouTube videos of professional recordings, that's only a technicality away from just downloading the mp3 from somewhere else. I have no objection to you downloading it like that, but it might be more convenient to just look for the mp3s ;-)

Again, I'm not proud of pirating and I don't think it's a great thing, but I also don't think it's the same as stealing. I'd say it's comparable to stealing Burger King's Whopper recipe and making them at home. You're not technically taking any money from them except because you'd go get a Whopper there if you couldn't make it at home. Still illegal and wrong, but far from the image that people try to portray of it, like it's the same as shoplifting the CD.

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 03:52:16 PM
The problem here is that it is unlikely in the extreme that the pirate recording will approach the quality of the legitimate one, which compromises the options for those of us who desire a quality recording.

I'm curious: where do people get this idea about pirated media? A pirated album quality is usually the exact same as if you put the CD into your computer and ripped it yourself.

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 03:57:25 PM
I don't support it (well, I wouldn't, would I?!); it's hard enough for most composers to make a living as it is without pirates and legitimate performance venues that don't pay their dues. Most of the royalties that my work generates do go to me and not to some vast global corporation. Piracy and non-licence payers interfere with that. As with performance, broadcast and recording royalties, so with self-publishing; thos who pirate my work do so at the expense of my income. If too much of that happens to too many people, the material just won't get produced in the quantities that people expect because the majority of the producers will no longer be able to afford to do it.

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Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
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Offline outin

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 04:05:34 PM
I'm curious: where do people get this idea about pirated media? A pirated album quality is usually the exact same as if you put the CD into your computer and ripped it yourself.

Of course it is, I think we were talking about downloading from the internet? Back in the days when I used P2P sharing programs, the quality of the files was usually pretty low and inconsistent. Not so much anymore I guess, but still a bit more work than just using itunes to get what I want immediately.

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 04:10:48 PM
And what about two different renditions of the same musician? 

Lets say Evgeny Pogorelich recorded Liszts 29th piano concerto and put it on iTunes.  And it just so happens that Evgeny Pogorelich made another recording of Liszts 29th, but put it on YouTube.  Would you still consider it pirating if you take the one from YouTube?

Because I mean, they're different renditions, and one might like the one on YouTube better.
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Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 05:01:13 PM
Of course it is, I think we were talking about downloading from the internet? Back in the days when I used P2P sharing programs, the quality of the files was usually pretty low and inconsistent. Not so much anymore I guess, but still a bit more work than just using itunes to get what I want immediately.

Sorry if this wasn't clear: I'm talking about downloading an album without paying for it, not copying from a burned CD or something. Using things like Limewire, you're going to find a lot of crappy audio, but I've been pirating for about as long as I've been using the internet (10 years?) and I don't think I've ever come across an album I downloaded where the audio was "bad"...a couple 128kbps rips here and there, but that's what paid downloads (through iTunes and Amazon) gave for quite a long time, and to the average listener isn't even that bad.

Actually, the thing is, iTunes downloads (unless they've changed) are 256kbps aac. They used to be even lower, 128 aac. FLAC (essentially CD quality) is significantly better quality than what you're paying for from iTunes. I never pay for digital downloads for this reason. CDs are significantly higher quality.

And what about two different renditions of the same musician? 

Lets say Evgeny Pogorelich recorded Liszts 29th piano concerto and put it on iTunes.  And it just so happens that Evgeny Pogorelich made another recording of Liszts 29th, but put it on YouTube.  Would you still consider it pirating if you take the one from YouTube?

Because I mean, they're different renditions, and one might like the one on YouTube better.

I'm not saying there's a problem with downloading from YouTube except audio quality and inconvenience. I'm not exactly sure about laws involving YouTube and downloading...I'm not sure if it's like the radio, where once it's aired, you have legal rights to record it for personal use. I do know that a lot of stuff on YouTube isn't legally allowed to be there (commercial recordings), but it's just too much hassle for Google/YouTube to go in and take all those videos down, so they only do it if a record label complains.

What I'm saying is, it's a technicality. Why is it okay to download each track from a Porcupine Tree album individually from YouTube, but it's not okay to download the album prepackaged from Mediafire? Is it because I would be putting in a lot of effort to do it on YouTube? Is it because of the lower quality audio? As a matter of fact, what's the thing with downloading anyway? I have internet on my phone everywhere I go and could listen to that album all I wanted on YouTube on my phone. I know for a fact it's not illegal to listen to a track on YouTube even if the track isn't legally allowed to be there. So what's the difference in practicality from a more decisive approach that is clearly illegal? Is it because it's less convenient to listen on YouTube? So what are you paying for then? You're paying for convenience? I thought you were paying for the music.

The issue is, there's no clean place to draw the line with pirating now. Computers have made standard models obsolete.

A new model? What do I suggest?

Well first, I'd say record labels need to be done away with. What do you need a record label for?

Recording costs? Recording equipment is so cheap (relatively--it's still hundreds/thousands of dollars) that just about anyone could afford to have a small studio in their basement, and I know plenty of people who do. Obviously, it's not as good as a professional studio, but it's often damn good and will work just fine for a band or artist starting out, trying to release their first album. Once they have a bit more money lying around, they can pay for time in a professional studio.

Promotion? People don't need promotion from a major company anymore. Why did an album need to be promoted first? Because people needed to hear about the artist, and because they couldn't listen to it before buying it. Now, people can look up the artist on YouTube or pirate their music to see if they like it. How do they hear about it in the first place? The internet! Word of mouth! Now, instead of hearing about music because a record label has sold it to you, you can hear about it through sites like Pitchfork and through the millions of people on the internet. Look at Justin Bieber. I'm not a big fan, but he got started on YouTube. His mistake was going over and signing a contract with a record company. I think he'd be just as popular is he is today if he hadn't signed the contract and had just done self-promo. And let's say, for argument's sake, that he wouldn't be as famous as he is now. It doesn't matter, because he'd actually be able to keep not 5%, not 10% of music sales (yes, that is what artists are currently paid, roughly), but 100%. He'd only have to have a fraction, only a tenth the number of teenage girls screaming over him in order to make just as much as he's making with a record deal.

So how does the music get out then? Well, the website bandcamp.com, for one (and I'm sure there are others), allows anyone to put their music up for download. The music is all DRM-free, and can be downloaded in whatever format and quality the downloader prefers--320kbps mp3, FLAC, whatever. Most artists also allow you to stream the entire album online to see if you like it before you pay for it and download it. Many artists also release their album at no cost.

This is the future, I think. The fact of the matter is, everyone with internet has access to nearly every CD ever released in good quality, for free. Guilt can only keep people from doing so much, and I don't think it's enough to keep the bureaucratic music industry in business. Actually, it's evident that the music industry is not surviving. They blame their failure on piracy. Maybe that's the issue, but I don't think so. (I think the real problem is that the record industry sells one-hit pop stars, and due to the advent of digital downloads, you no longer have to pay the full album price in order to get the 2 songs you want from an album. You just pay for the 2 songs. Yes, you can talk about singles from back in the day, but this is a whole new level. Singles were used as a promotion for an album. Digital downloads of just one song are not expected to turn into a sale of the entire album.) But even if piracy is the cause, there is no solution. The internet is complete and utter freedom. The government (US, at least) tries to put a wall up, and people either go all Reagan "Mr. Gorbachev" on their ass (see SOPA/PIPA), or they just walk around the wall, climb over it, or a dig a tunnel under it. Fear and guilt will not override people's desire to save money in a way that is viewed by many/most as being essentially harmless.

As you can see, I'm even less passionate about this subject than Rach_forever is about Bach ::)

Offline outin

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 05:30:17 PM
Sorry if this wasn't clear: I'm talking about downloading an album without paying for it, not copying from a burned CD or something. Using things like Limewire, you're going to find a lot of crappy audio, but I've been pirating for about as long as I've been using the internet (10 years?) and I don't think I've ever come across an album I downloaded where the audio was "bad"...a couple 128kbps rips here and there, but that's what paid downloads (through iTunes and Amazon) gave for quite a long time, and to the average listener isn't even that bad.

Actually, the thing is, iTunes downloads (unless they've changed) are 256kbps aac. They used to be even lower, 128 aac. FLAC (essentially CD quality) is significantly better quality than what you're paying for from iTunes. I never pay for digital downloads for this reason. CDs are significantly higher quality.

Did you just confess to being a hardened criminal?  ;)

My experience is from Limewire and whatever the thing before that was, I have forgotten...

I wasn't into classical then, so my experience is from other type of music. I still have a lot of the files left, but hardly ever listened to them because they sound was significantly worse than what I am used to on itunes. With better sources this would have been no problem.

BTW I have burned quite a few CDs from itunes purchases to play with my hifi system and for my ears the quality is good enough. Also when I hook my computer to the system as long as I use a proper soundboard. So I just don't feel like taking the trouble to look for the free files even if they are better quality. But I can well understand why someone would. The price on most classical music is low enough in itunes to make me pay. If it was any higher, that would surely change things. For me it's also about being able to browse and prelisten the different recordings before I purchase.

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 05:44:36 PM
So I just don't feel like taking the trouble to look for the free files even if they are better quality. But I can well understand why someone would. The price on most classical music is low enough in itunes to make me pay. If it was any higher, that would surely change things. For me it's also about being able to browse and prelisten the different recordings before I purchase.

To the average person, it doesn't make any difference. iTunes quality is still quite good, I just wanted to point out that not all pirated music is low quality, and that much of it, in fact, is better than iTunes downloads. I understand the convenience of iTunes downloads, but I rarely use them (as in, I've maybe bought 10 songs total with iTunes) because a CD, first, offers the fact that it is physical and can't be taken away from you (except by force, of course), whereas a file can be deleted or lost, if a hard drive fails. Also, I like holding it in my hands and looking through the little cover booklets...such a nice feeling.

Offline starstruck5

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 05:58:09 PM
Could I say a little something in defence of murderers -there might be occasions when the person who is murdered fully deserves to be.  ;D
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Offline outin

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 06:36:43 PM
a CD, first, offers the fact that it is physical and can't be taken away from you (except by force, of course), whereas a file can be deleted or lost, if a hard drive fails.

That's why you have backups...I back up my important files weekly (and every time purchase something) to 3 different hard drives, one I carry with me, one I keep at home and one at work...Am I paranoid or what? :)

Then again I have a lot of material on my computers that is priceless and could never be created again.

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 07:02:32 PM
Am I paranoid or what? :)

Not in the least. The average person puts way too much faith in computers. Hard drives crash all the time. I wish I could have full backups of my stuff, but it'd be way too much, sadly (I have a few TBs of stuff). I have probably 500 GB of Steam games, so those can be easily redownloaded should a hard drive fail, a bunch of media I don't necessarily need, 150 GB of music (this is the thing I really wish I had backed up somewhere...), tons of miscellaneous other stuff that can be replaced. I have all documents and very important files backed up to Dropbox, so at least if my computer fails, schoolwork and such will be available.

Offline outin

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 07:21:33 PM
The average person puts way too much faith in computers. Hard drives crash all the time. I wish I could have full backups of my stuff, but it'd be way too much, sadly (I have a few TBs of stuff).

I'm always amazed when people tell me they lost everything and had no backups...I would lose a large piece of my life if I lost all my files.

But the amount is going to be a problem for me too soon. I have 1TB external hard drive and two 500GB small portable drives and my organized photos and videos alone take about 300GB. I'll need to create some system soon or just get larger drives...

Offline j_menz

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 11:21:38 PM
It should be legal if, and only if, you can prove you had a parrot on your shoulder, wore an eyepatch and said "aaarrrrgggg" a lot whilst you did it.  ;D

Seriously, I'm old fashioned enough to like my music on CDs and am happy to pay. That said, I freely buy from around the world without consideration of regional licensing arrangement (same with DVDs etc).

I use YT etc all the time though to sus out what's good, or what's simply not available elsewhere.
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Offline nanabush

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 06:46:32 PM
Just throwing this out there... you can rip the audio from youtube videos as an mp3.

I'll usually buy albums from iTunes, but only ones that I REALLLLLY want.  Or, i'll make a youtube playlist and just listen to that.  Who gives a crap if one or two of the songs are of so-so recording quality, I just made a 45 song playlist and can listen to it in the car, on the bus, or at my computer.
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Offline black_keys

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 08:26:09 AM
Its totally legal in my country

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #20 on: August 22, 2012, 03:53:59 PM
Its totally legal in my country

Which country is that?

Offline black_keys

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 07:08:40 PM

Offline thing2emma

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #22 on: August 27, 2012, 02:28:53 AM
If it's for sale, I don't pirate it. I think that's stealing.
However, if it's not available for purchase, I'll pirate it.
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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #23 on: August 27, 2012, 03:12:54 AM
If it's for sale, I don't pirate it. I think that's stealing.
However, if it's not available for purchase, I'll pirate it.

But what if a recording is for sale by Evgeny Kissin or something, but he has another version on YouTube that's better.  Would you still buy it?  Or get the Bette version on YouTube?
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Offline pianoplunker

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #24 on: August 27, 2012, 03:43:08 AM
I remember watching a video on youtube.  I think it was Rach sonata 1 first movement by Valentina Lisitsa. :-*  And she got into an argument with this one guy about pirating recordings.  The guy she was arguing with supported pirating, while Valentina didn't.  But of course Valentina won the argument!  I mean, come on!  She's freaking Valentina Lisitsa!  She wins everything by default!


No but yeah, ANYWAYS, this is what I do.  If I hear something I like, I get it off of youtube.  Because I think it's kinda stupid how you can watch youtube videos all you like, but you can't download them on your Ipod.  I mean, come on now.  Seriously?  But I get my stuff off of youtube unless I can find a better rendition of itunes or something.  But since everything is on youtube, I get almost all of my stuff from there.

SO...  What do you guys think about this issue?  I remember seeing this meme where the guy who's the owner of megaupload gets like life in prison, while some other guy who killed his wife and kids gets only like 27 years in prison. 

I think this whole pirating thing is stupid. 


I wouldnt consider watching or listening on youtube as piracy.  Who knows, maybe the artists like the free advertising platform. As far as your Ipod, there are apps which supposedly convert Youtubes to MP3. 

Offline sphince

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #25 on: August 27, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
I firmly believe that the whole issue of copyright infrigments,piracy and such fall down to the simplest of consumerism rules like "offer and request".Which means...
As long as record labels and film production companies price their material inadequately with their quality,people will continue pirating.
Exg: If I go to the cinema and the movie I watched,believed it should be priced 1/5th of what was actually priced,It makes sense to watch 4/5 of my movies pirated and at home,plainly to balance my budget.
So if recording labels are jerks,film companies are jerks^2 for not paying attention to what happened with music stores as soon as napster and kazaa came through with the internet speeds getting faster and faster and didn't forsee the appearance of piratebay and others and as a result DID NOT  lower the prices on their films to try and attract customers away from piracy.
In conclusion,I would never steal(because many have baptized pirating as stealing) a movie or a record that hasn't stolen ME.
I'm not a thief.I'm a volunteer and I care about my pocket.
YOU JELLY MUSIC/FILM LABEL FAGS?

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Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #26 on: August 27, 2012, 03:20:35 PM
The thing is, people don't pay based on what they think the thing is worth, they pay on whether they think paying is worth more than the free version.

So if one can get a movie for free for $0, or get it on DVD for $10 and there is no difference, of course people will get the free version.

Going to the cinema offers a completely different experience from at home. So you could watch it at home on a smaller screen with cheap audio for $0, or you could watch it at the theater with a large screen and great audio for $10. People will decide whether they think the better experience is worth $10.

But saying, "I don't think this movie is worth $10 so I'll get it for free", is stupid. If you don't think it's worth $10, then you don't get to lower the price for yourself, only the seller gets to do that. If you go into a store and see something cool for $100 and say "I like the painting, but I think it's worth $50, so here's 50 now let me have my painting." You'd get laughed at and told to leave.

People who try to justify piracy like this have some messed up morals. People say, "Well, I wouldn't have gotten it if it weren't free." I even used to justify my actions like this, but really, you don't know what you would've done, because it is free.

Offline werq34ac

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #27 on: August 28, 2012, 02:40:29 AM
I'm not paying 80$ to sightread a couple pieces by Kapustin. Our town has the benefit of having a really good music library, but they don't have everything by Kapustin. (There's not a lot they don't have however, it's a pretty big library). So anything the library doesn't have I will search online to see if there's a free copy I can download. I'd say 50% of the time, with enough searching, it can be found.

I find that scribd has a lot of sheet music that imslp doesn't have.
Ravel Jeux D'eau
Brahms 118/2
Liszt Concerto 1
Rachmaninoff/Kreisler Liebesleid

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #28 on: August 28, 2012, 06:29:10 AM
Lebanon
Are you trying to tell us that there is no such thing as intellectual property rights of any kind in Lebanon?

Anyway, most of the discussion here has been about pirating of performances, yet the same situation applies to any music pirating; publishers and composers lose out whenever anyone makes unauthorised scans and uploads of published scores for free download (composers also lose out in the same way when their unpublished scores are similarly ripped). The composer has invested time and energy in his/her work. The publisher has invested money in publishing it. The thief may or may not make money out of what he/she then steals, but those thefts certainly incur losses elsewhere.

The fundamental problem lies with the number of people who seem to think that, whereas they have some kind of divine right to have whatever music they want without having to pay anything for it, those who produce and publish it either do not have or do not merit payment for so doing. There's no logic, let alone legality, in that. I question how many - if indeed any - of those who do think along these lines would similarly condone or indulge in that kind of thieving if the material stolen was cars, jewellery, &c.

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Alistair
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Offline j_menz

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #29 on: August 28, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
Are you trying to tell us that there is no such thing as intellectual property rights of any kind in Lebanon?

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Alistair

Lebanon is a signatory to the Berne Convention and the Geneva version of the Universal Copyright Convention. Copyright is recognised under Lebanese law.

Given the sometimes fragile state of enforcement, though, the extent to which IP exists de facto is questionable.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #30 on: August 28, 2012, 06:43:54 AM
I'm not paying 80$ to sightread a couple pieces by Kapustin. Our town has the benefit of having a really good music library, but they don't have everything by Kapustin. (There's not a lot they don't have however, it's a pretty big library). So anything the library doesn't have I will search online to see if there's a free copy I can download. I'd say 50% of the time, with enough searching, it can be found.

I find that scribd has a lot of sheet music that imslp doesn't have.
Maybe, but IMSLP makes every effort to ensure that what it offers is in the public domain; does scribd do the same?

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Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #31 on: August 28, 2012, 06:47:13 AM
Lebanon is a signatory to the Berne Convention and the Geneva version of the Universal Copyright Convention. Copyright is recognised under Lebanese law.

Given the sometimes fragile state of enforcement, though, the extent to which IP exists de facto is questionable.
That's exactly what I'd thought. The existence of laws and the extent and effectiveness of their enforcement in any particular jurisdiction are always different things in any case, but what is clearly more questionable still is the assertion that copyright theft is legal in Lebanon, so thank you for clarifying the true situation for the benefit of anyone who might have been led to believe Lebanon to be a copyright free zone.

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Offline 49410enrique

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #32 on: August 28, 2012, 11:16:39 AM
...I question how many - if indeed any - of those who do think along these lines would similarly condone or indulge in that kind of thieving if the material stolen was cars, jewellery, &c.

Best,

Alistair
i think those are the people that put the arguement into circulation that it's not stealing since, according the 'analogy' i have heard used by them when justifying their actions,

if you park your car, and overnight, someone comes up to it, used a machine to create a copy of it, and drives off in the copy, and you wake up the next morning and your car is still there in the driveway, 'you don't feel like somone stole your car' lol. i literally laughed out loud when i heard that/read that. they that they believe that!

now i make 'copies of cars' from stuff in our score library that i check out (or if on permanent reserve, might do it in house as that is our only option) but those were purchased legally either by the school or by individuals then donated to the library, i/we (students) pay hefty library fees for that access and the library has a committment to continue to buy new music/support the publishes with regular large purchases. and i certainly don't choose not to buy in spite of access to such resources , if anything they allow me to preview and see first hand what i will buy before hand, many a purchase has been motivated by such after having it in my hands and deciding, "i simply must own/have this"

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #33 on: August 28, 2012, 11:59:46 AM
i think those are the people that put the arguement into circulation that it's not stealing since, according the 'analogy' i have heard used by them when justifying their actions,

if you park your car, and overnight, someone comes up to it, used a machine to create a copy of it, and drives off in the copy, and you wake up the next morning and your car is still there in the driveway, 'you don't feel like somone stole your car' lol. i literally laughed out loud when i heard that/read that. they that they believe that!

now i make 'copies of cars' from stuff in our score library that i check out (or if on permanent reserve, might do it in house as that is our only option) but those were purchased legally either by the school or by individuals then donated to the library, i/we (students) pay hefty library fees for that access and the library has a committment to continue to buy new music/support the publishes with regular large purchases. and i certainly don't choose not to buy in spite of access to such resources , if anything they allow me to preview and see first hand what i will buy before hand, many a purchase has been motivated by such after having it in my hands and deciding, "i simply must own/have this"
Well, the response (by those who would be able to provide it if asked) is, of course convenient (for them - or so they would appear to believe) in the sense that, since one cannot make a copy of the car or the piece of jewellery, the assumption that such a comparison does not even apply nevertheless deliberately misses the point to the extent that it is legally possible to misappropriate any asset regardless of whether or not it is tangible; just because you can physically see a car or a diamond ring but can't copy it whereas you can't see intellectual property but can copy it makes no difference to the legal principles involved.

I am a little concerned by one part of your library analogy, however; the mere fact of a public or academic library purchasing copyright material does not confer upon it an entitlement to make, or allow to be made, copies of it by its users and, in my experience, libraries make it clear to their users that they specifically disallow this. On the other hand, I do agree that library facilities often do offer prospective purchasers of material the possibility to see it first before deciding - and that can only be a good thing. Publishers will often make small samples of their wares available to prospective purchasers free of charge; we at The Sorabji Archive, for example, do this when asked.

I should point out that, whilst we're discussing music copyright here, the same rules apply and attitudes of mind should apply to any other intellectual property, be it literary writings of any kind, patents and so on.

Finally, most intellectual property thieves do not even bother to seek to justify their actions because they are possessed of sufficient arrogance to presume that they either have or ought to have a moral and legal right to do what they do out of some kind of wilfully perverse and self-serving misinterpretation of the principles of creative commons; whilst no copyright holder in his or her right mind would seek deliberately to debar anyone from obtaining legitimate copies of copyright material through authorised channels (that's what publishing is all about, after all), there is, as the old cliché has it, no such thing as a free lunch.

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Alistair
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Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #34 on: August 28, 2012, 01:10:21 PM
it makes no difference to the legal principles involved.

Actually, it makes a huge difference, given that one is stealing and the other is copyright infringement. Stealing is a crime because of what was lost as a result of the theft. Copyright infringement is a crime because of what could potentially have been lost as a result of the copy.

While I agree piracy is immoral, the laws surrounding it are ridiculous, at best. Because piracy is not theft, the owners of the copyright can claim a hundred, thousand, even million times the damages they would be able to if it were theft. Thousands and thousands of dollars in fines for pirating a couple dollars worth of music. Does that strike you as fair and just? It makes more sense to have it be the other way around. Stealing a CD definitely results in a loss of $15 worth of concrete, physical stuff. Pirating an album could result in the loss of a $15 sale, but also possibly not. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the punishment for pirating an album be no greater than the punishment for stealing an album, if not slightly less? But they can't catch every single person who downloads an album, so they attempt to make up for it by charging the people they do catch with significantly more. And I am not making this up. This has been used as a justification in the cases for charging people with ridiculously high fines.

be it literary writings of any kind, patents and so on.

haha patents, you lose credibility when you mention how patent infringement is a serious problem. Patent laws are so ridiculous, there's not a lot you can invent that isn't covered by a patent. Patent laws make sense when you invent the cotton gin and everyone tries to make their own and sell it. Patent laws don't make sense when you're dealing with electronics that are 98% the same, and every tiny difference, no matter how small, is given its own patent. The whole idea of the patent system is to allow inventors to make money from their inventions so they have a motivation to invent, but it's become much sillier than that now.

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #35 on: August 28, 2012, 02:40:55 PM
Actually, it makes a huge difference, given that one is stealing and the other is copyright infringement. Stealing is a crime because of what was lost as a result of the theft. Copyright infringement is a crime because of what could potentially have been lost as a result of the copy.
Not strictly true. What can be lost as a consequence of the theft of the car is not necessarily confined to the value of the car or what the owner paid for it but also in the value attachable to the owner's use of it, so it is not necessarily a merely hard and fast matter of a specific number of pounds, dollars or whatever but something that would have to be assessed in a court of law (for example, its value to someone who uses the car only for the occasional shopping trip is obviously much less than its value to someone who depends upon it for business); likewise, damage arising from copyright theft is not a specific sum in each and every case but an amount that would have to be determined by a court in accordance with the best available evidence submitted to it. Once these facts are duly appreciated, the differences in both effect and application are seen as much smaller than you might initially have assumed to be the case.

While I agree piracy is immoral, the laws surrounding it are ridiculous, at best. Because piracy is not theft, the owners of the copyright can claim a hundred, thousand, even million times the damages they would be able to if it were theft. Thousands and thousands of dollars in fines for pirating a couple dollars worth of music. Does that strike you as fair and just? It makes more sense to have it be the other way around. Stealing a CD definitely results in a loss of $15 worth of concrete, physical stuff. Pirating an album could result in the loss of a $15 sale, but also possibly not. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the punishment for pirating an album be no greater than the punishment for stealing an album, if not slightly less? But they can't catch every single person who downloads an album, so they attempt to make up for it by charging the people they do catch with significantly more. And I am not making this up. This has been used as a justification in the cases for charging people with ridiculously high fines.
It is vital to make and fully understand a specific distinction between (a) the law that defines what constitutes theft, piracy and other forms of misappropriation and (b) the manner in which each individual court applies such law. This, however, is no different to the situation with any other law, since one court might, for example, sentence a murderer to 10 years and another in the same country to 20 years when the crime committed is precisely the same. Whilst I accept that the application of the laws of copyright when infringement cases come to court may well vary substantially from case to case and court to court, the same is true in respect of the application of any other laws when cases are brought before a court. I do not agree that the punishment for pirating an album should be the same as for physically stealing a single copy of one because, in the latter case, the owner of the CD has been deprived only of the amount that he/she paid for it (unless, of course, it is no longer replaceable) whereas, in the former, the copyright owner of the CD's contents has been deprived of royalties whose value is dependent upon the extent to which the CD will have been subjected to unauthorised distribution. Whilst there have indeed been some cases in which the punishment for copyright infringement might appear to have been disproportionate to the crime committed, this can also be the case in other areas of the law when a court decides to exercise its rights to make an example of the miscreant in a bid to discourage future cases from coming to court; this is a familiar phenomenon of long standing in legal circles.

haha patents, you lose credibility when you mention how patent infringement is a serious problem. Patent laws are so ridiculous, there's not a lot you can invent that isn't covered by a patent. Patent laws make sense when you invent the cotton gin and everyone tries to make their own and sell it. Patent laws don't make sense when you're dealing with electronics that are 98% the same, and every tiny difference, no matter how small, is given its own patent. The whole idea of the patent system is to allow inventors to make money from their inventions so they have a motivation to invent, but it's become much sillier than that now.
I don't doubt that there are inadequacies in patent and other intellectual copyright law (and there are certainly international inconsistencies in copyright law, although these are not as extensive as once they were), but the same applies to all law; this is just one of many reasons why it is necessary not only for laws to be debated and passed but also for courts to apply them as sensibly as possible and, of course, the mere fact that there can be no guarantee that either will always happen is no excuse not to try to pass and apply good and workable laws and, if it were indeed to become regarded as such an excuse, we would be contemplating a climate of potential lawlessness.

There are some who seek the abolition of all intellectual property rights and the entitlements to royalties that are enshrined within them; whilst I am not suggesting that you hold such a view, what would you say about those who do and about what you would expect to happen if all such rights were indeed abolished? How would you anticipate the creativity currently covered by intellectual property legislation be rewarded in such a climate?

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Alistair
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Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #36 on: August 28, 2012, 03:17:52 PM
Not strictly true. What can be lost as a consequence of the theft of the car is not necessarily confined to the value of the car or what the owner paid for it but also in the value attachable to the owner's use of it, so it is not necessarily a merely hard and fast matter of a specific number of pounds, dollars or whatever but something that would have to be assessed in a court of law (for example, its value to someone who uses the car only for the occasional shopping trip is obviously much less than its value to someone who depends upon it for business); likewise, damage arising from copyright theft is not a specific sum in each and every case but an amount that would have to be determined by a court in accordance with the best available evidence submitted to it. Once these facts are duly appreciated, the differences in both effect and application are seen as much smaller than you might initially have assumed to be the case.

But surely you don't actually believe that's how the numbers are calculated. Do you think it's possible for someone to make a case that a single $15 CD on a store shelf was worth, to that store, a million dollars? Of course not, you could never make that claim. But for some reason, you can if it's pirated.

Also, as far as the car thing is concerned, it doesn't really matter how much you used the car. Even if you didn't use it very much, you would still have to replace the car. Do you have a source on that, because I have a lot of trouble believing a court would decide that the exact same car is worth significantly more to one person than another when either way, the person would have to replace the car.

It is vital to make and fully understand a specific distinction between (a) the law that defines what constitutes theft, piracy and other forms of misappropriation and (b) the manner in which each individual court applies such law. This, however, is no different to the situation with any other law, since one court might, for example, sentence a murderer to 10 years and another in the same country to 20 years when the crime committed is precisely the same. Whilst I accept that the application of the laws of copyright when infringement cases come to court may well vary substantially from case to case and court to court, the same is true in respect of the application of any other laws when cases are brought before a court. I do not agree that the punishment for pirating an album should be the same as for physically stealing a single copy of one because, in the latter case, the owner of the CD has been deprived only of the amount that he/she paid for it (unless, of course, it is no longer replaceable) whereas, in the former, the copyright owner of the CD's contents has been deprived of royalties whose value is dependent upon the extent to which the CD will have been subjected to unauthorised distribution. Whilst there have indeed been some cases in which the punishment for copyright infringement might appear to have been disproportionate to the crime committed, this can also be the case in other areas of the law when a court decides to exercise its rights to make an example of the miscreant in a bid to discourage future cases from coming to court; this is a familiar phenomenon of long standing in legal circles.

It's not a matter of it varying from case to case. Yes, I understand in two separate trials for identical murder cases, one might get 10 years, the other 20. But that's not what this is. This isn't a difference of a factor of 2, it's a difference of a factor of thousands. And it's not random. It's always pirates get ridiculous charges, shoplifters get very little.

As for the value of the contents of the album being recopied, surely that would fall under the next person. If I make a make a copy of a $15 album and give it to my friend, and my friend takes it, we are both charged with equal rates by that logic. So if they could actually charge every single person that has pirated an album with the amount they charge the people they catch, they would make millions of times more than the cost of every single person buying the album, because they'd be double charging, and not only that, but charging at already ridiculous rates.

Also, these ridiculous rates have also been applied to people who only downloaded music but didn't upload, meaning there is no redistribution whatsoever. So that argument falls out the window right there.

And no, it's not a right to make an example of someone. It's abuse of power, and it's a direct violation of the US 8th amendment.

There are some who seek the abolition of all intellectual property rights and the entitlements to royalties that are enshrined within them; whilst I am not suggesting that you hold such a view, what would you say about those who do and about what you would expect to happen if all such rights were indeed abolished? How would you anticipate the creativity currently covered by intellectual property legislation be rewarded in such a climate?

I'm not in support of completely doing away with these laws. To do so would most likely hurt cultural growth significantly because all artists would have to do their work as a pastime instead of as a job. However, I think the laws are far too far in the other direction, and as a result, have stifled creativity in many ways just as much as a lack of any laws would.

If theoretically, they were abolished, creativity would be stifled the most in cases where big business is involved, eg pop stars, but less in the cases of musicians who actually enjoy creating music. The vast majority of musicians I admire outside of classical music began playing music with no hopes of making it big, and when they did make it big, still have very little interest in the fame except that it allows their art to be given to the world. Of course, the money is nice too, but most of them were not expecting to make any money when they began their bands. Also, bands make most of their money from concerts and merch, an experience and an object, two things that cannot be pirated.

Film, I believe, is where we'd see the biggest change if the laws were done away with. Movies have astronomical budgets and it would be difficult for them to make a profit with piracy available as it is. Movie theaters would be the only place they could make their money. I'm not sure about the numbers, but I don't think box office sales alone are enough to pay for most films' budgets.

Innovation in technology would continue about as normal, I think. Because the patents refer to specific tiny parts of a product, no individual part is enough to do much of anything. Nobody buys a phone because it has a chip fused to a wire, or whatever stupid obvious idea people are trying to patent these days.

Medicine, this would be the most catastrophic. Biotech companies pour tons of money into research into medicine that will most likely never amount to anything. As a result, they have to have very high prices on the medicine that actually does amount to something. Surprisingly, this is the one people are most upset about. But the reality is, if the moment they released their medicine, anyone could copy it, they would have absolutely no motivation to develop new medicine since they would just be pouring millions of dollars down the drain and seeing absolutely nothing in return.

What would I have happen? I would have laws be less strict, as I mentioned above, but mostly, what I would like to see happen is something I believe is already happening and has nothing to do with laws. I made a rather lengthy post above about what is wrong with the music industry and how it is obsolete in the modern era and how I see the situation changing. If you're interested, go read it, otherwise, here's the TL;DR: Record industry is dying as a result of $.99 songs and piracy. Not the way I would have it die, but I'm glad it's dying either way. Artists are self-promoting and self-releasing albums, keeping close to 100% of profits for themselves, and have complete rights to their own music, instead of record companies owning it.

I see value in intellectual property laws and think we'd be screwed if they ceased to exist. But in their current state, they are not working.

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #37 on: August 28, 2012, 04:46:49 PM
But surely you don't actually believe that's how the numbers are calculated. Do you think it's possible for someone to make a case that a single $15 CD on a store shelf was worth, to that store, a million dollars? Of course not, you could never make that claim. But for some reason, you can if it's pirated.
No, I don't, but then I don't think one could do that for a pirate one either; the point is that a copyright owner would have to prove to a court intellectual property rights losses to the value of $1m for any such award to be made in his/her favour and the likelihood of that is very remote indeed!

Also, as far as the car thing is concerned, it doesn't really matter how much you used the car. Even if you didn't use it very much, you would still have to replace the car. Do you have a source on that, because I have a lot of trouble believing a court would decide that the exact same car is worth significantly more to one person than another when either way, the person would have to replace the car.
But what about income lost by the car owner as a sole and direct consequence of the theft? That would have to taken into consideration as well; it wouldn't inflate the value of the car itself, of course, but it would inflate the value of the owner's claim in respect of its theft.

It's not a matter of it varying from case to case. Yes, I understand in two separate trials for identical murder cases, one might get 10 years, the other 20. But that's not what this is. This isn't a difference of a factor of 2, it's a difference of a factor of thousands. And it's not random. It's always pirates get ridiculous charges, shoplifters get very little.
"Always"? In many cases, pirates get away with having to pay nothing because cases against them are rarely brought and, when they are, the amounts awarded against them have to include all the legal costs as well as the court assessment of the value of the copyright losses. In other cases, it's not always a "factor of 2" or anything like it in any case. What, for example, would you consider to be a reasonable maximum sentence to be passed against a mail worker for failure to deliver 42,000 items of mail from which he derived no financial benefit? When that happened in 1972 in Spain the criminal concerned was awarded a sentence of 384,912 years; Would you not agree that this is more inequitable than almost any court awards made in favour of copyright owners in respect of breaches of their intellectual property rights?

As for the value of the contents of the album being recopied, surely that would fall under the next person. If I make a make a copy of a $15 album and give it to my friend, and my friend takes it, we are both charged with equal rates by that logic. So if they could actually charge every single person that has pirated an album with the amount they charge the people they catch, they would make millions of times more than the cost of every single person buying the album, because they'd be double charging, and not only that, but charging at already ridiculous rates.
Not necessarily; to return to the car again, if someone steals one and then allows someone else to drive it and the driver wrecks it, that hardly exonerates the thief who made that possible, does it?!

Also, these ridiculous rates have also been applied to people who only downloaded music but didn't upload, meaning there is no redistribution whatsoever. So that argument falls out the window right there.
Not at all; apart from the crime of accessory after the fact, there is the matter of handling stolen goods that applies equally in matters outside the world of copyright. In any event, like anything else, this kind of thing has to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the merits of each case.

And no, it's not a right to make an example of someone. It's abuse of power, and it's a direct violation of the US 8th amendment.
US law applies only in US! In any case, it is up to a court to decide whether, in sentencing, fining or handing down other punishment, it should or should not make an example of a particular criminal and that's legal in many countries although, in most, there right of appeal can take assertions of unfair example-making into consideration. In addition, no laws can of themselves guarantee preclusion of abuse by a court, but that is, as I have already stated, a separate issue to that of the laws themselves. The police have a duty to uphold the law as well, but do they never abuse the rights that come with enabling that duty to be carried out? Of course not! - but, again, that's a matter entirely separate from that of the value, validity and viability of the laws that they are charged to uphold, over which they have no control.

I'm not in support of completely doing away with these laws. To do so would most likely hurt cultural growth significantly because all artists would have to do their work as a pastime instead of as a job. However, I think the laws are far too far in the other direction, and as a result, have stifled creativity in many ways just as much as a lack of any laws would.

If theoretically, they were abolished, creativity would be stifled the most in cases where big business is involved, eg pop stars, but less in the cases of musicians who actually enjoy creating music. The vast majority of musicians I admire outside of classical music began playing music with no hopes of making it big, and when they did make it big, still have very little interest in the fame except that it allows their art to be given to the world. Of course, the money is nice too, but most of them were not expecting to make any money when they began their bands. Also, bands make most of their money from concerts and merch, an experience and an object, two things that cannot be pirated.
Whilst laws and their application can theoretically risk stifling creativity, the abuse and flouting of them is likely to do the same on a vastly greater scale; if such laws were abolished universally, how would a composer or publisher make any money and, if they didn't, how would they survive? - and, in the composer's case, please think at least twice before considering answering "teaching" because it is plainly obvious that this involves paying a composer to flood the market with yet more and more composers all trying to make a living, thereby directly worsening the situation yet further.

Film, I believe, is where we'd see the biggest change if the laws were done away with. Movies have astronomical budgets and it would be difficult for them to make a profit with piracy available as it is. Movie theaters would be the only place they could make their money. I'm not sure about the numbers, but I don't think box office sales alone are enough to pay for most films' budgets.
Box office sales are rarely sufficient to pay for anything, especially opera and concerts!

Innovation in technology would continue about as normal, I think. Because the patents refer to specific tiny parts of a product, no individual part is enough to do much of anything. Nobody buys a phone because it has a chip fused to a wire, or whatever stupid obvious idea people are trying to patent these days.
Apple and Samsung, anyone?...

Medicine, this would be the most catastrophic. Biotech companies pour tons of money into research into medicine that will most likely never amount to anything. As a result, they have to have very high prices on the medicine that actually does amount to something. Surprisingly, this is the one people are most upset about. But the reality is, if the moment they released their medicine, anyone could copy it, they would have absolutely no motivation to develop new medicine since they would just be pouring millions of dollars down the drain and seeing absolutely nothing in return.

What would I have happen? I would have laws be less strict, as I mentioned above, but mostly, what I would like to see happen is something I believe is already happening and has nothing to do with laws. I made a rather lengthy post above about what is wrong with the music industry and how it is obsolete in the modern era and how I see the situation changing. If you're interested, go read it, otherwise, here's the TL;DR: Record industry is dying as a result of $.99 songs and piracy. Not the way I would have it die, but I'm glad it's dying either way. Artists are self-promoting and self-releasing albums, keeping close to 100% of profits for themselves, and have complete rights to their own music, instead of record companies owning it.
Not all artists can have complete control over the cost of producing what they do. Some years ago, I had a piece of mine recorded by a record company (not one of the global big ones either) and it involved six performers; the end result was a 3-CD set comprising a piece that plays for 170 minutes and a booklet of some 40 pages that included information about the work and the artists involved and the vocal texts set in it; how could that have been done without enormous expense in performers' fees, venue hire, production costs and the rest? And, as the piece was uncommissioned, I did not get paid a cent for writing its 269-page score which, as you may imagine, took quite a few hours!

When an orchestral recording is made, someone has to pay everyone involved for the rehearsals and recording, the venue hire and all manner of other costs; how can these be avoided unless everyone involved agrees to do their part of it for free?

Yes, technology makes self-publishing easier (as I know from my own activities) and I welcome the facilities that this offers, but it also makes pirating easier.

This is not all about massive international record companies and publishers, though, as I hope I've made clear.

I see value in intellectual property laws and think we'd be screwed if they ceased to exist. But in their current state, they are not working.
They are working but not well enough and they do need improvement and constant updating, but what they also need - and this has been and is likely to remain the most elusive goal of all - is global commonality, so that everyone involved knows exactly what they are and what royalty rates apply. Did you know that performance and broadcast royalty rates can vary by thousands of % from one country to another? I do not know why that is, but it would make life much easier if this was somehow evened out. But that's not going to happen before we have world government, which is unlikely to be established by the end of next week.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #38 on: August 28, 2012, 05:40:17 PM
No, I don't, but then I don't think one could do that for a pirate one either; the point is that a copyright owner would have to prove to a court intellectual property rights losses to the value of $1m for any such award to be made in his/her favour and the likelihood of that is very remote indeed!

Unlikely, yet it happens all the time.

But what about income lost by the car owner as a sole and direct consequence of the theft? That would have to taken into consideration as well; it wouldn't inflate the value of the car itself, of course, but it would inflate the value of the owner's claim in respect of its theft.

Yes, that's reasonable. I thought you were implying that the loss of someone who rarely uses the car is less than the objective value of the car.

US law applies only in US! In any case, it is up to a court to decide whether, in sentencing, fining or handing down other punishment, it should or should not make an example of a particular criminal and that's legal in many countries although, in most, there right of appeal can take assertions of unfair example-making into consideration. In addition, no laws can of themselves guarantee preclusion of abuse by a court, but that is, as I have already stated, a separate issue to that of the laws themselves. The police have a duty to uphold the law as well, but do they never abuse the rights that come with enabling that duty to be carried out? Of course not! - but, again, that's a matter entirely separate from that of the value, validity and viability of the laws that they are charged to uphold, over which they have no control.

Of course it does, but I'm referring to the US here, given that US companies are behind the majority of copyright claims, so the cases fall under US law.

And yes, I understand that you can't stop the courts or the police from doing things not allowed/intended by the laws, but that's hardly a reason to just sit by and say, "Sorry, nothing we can do about it. Oh well." Who watches the watchmen?

Whilst laws and their application can theoretically risk stifling creativity, the abuse and flouting of them is likely to do the same on a vastly greater scale; if such laws were abolished universally, how would a composer or publisher make any money and, if they didn't, how would they survive? - and, in the composer's case, please think at least twice before considering answering "teaching" because it is plainly obvious that this involves paying a composer to flood the market with yet more and more composers all trying to make a living, thereby directly worsening the situation yet further.

I hope this was apparent, but I am agreeing that it would be bad to do away with the laws. I support their existence, but I think a better balance needs to be struck in order to allow the content creators to earn profits from their labor while their culture is still allowed to spread.

For instance, explain how it makes sense that 59 years after his death, I am still unable to print out Prokofiev's works legally. I understand that he and his publisher ought to own rights to his music while alive, and even for a while after his death, to support his family and such, but 70 years after his death, very few, if any, people Prokofiev ever even knew in life will still be alive. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me either way since I buy all my music whether it's public domain or not, but really!

Box office sales are rarely sufficient to pay for anything, especially opera and concerts!

Again, I'm agreeing that this would be terrible for the industry.

Not all artists can have complete control over the cost of producing what they do. Some years ago, I had a piece of mine recorded by a record company (not one of the global big ones either) and it involved six performers; the end result was a 3-CD set comprising a piece that plays for 170 minutes and a booklet of some 40 pages that included information about the work and the artists involved and the vocal texts set in it; how could that have been done without enormous expense in performers' fees, venue hire, production costs and the rest? And, as the piece was uncommissioned, I did not get paid a cent for writing its 269-page score which, as you may imagine, took quite a few hours!

When an orchestral recording is made, someone has to pay everyone involved for the rehearsals and recording, the venue hire and all manner of other costs; how can these be avoided unless everyone involved agrees to do their part of it for free?

This is not all about massive international record companies and publishers, though, as I hope I've made clear.

Yes, I understand that. I'm not suggesting you work for free, I'm suggesting that when doing things like this, the middle man should be cut out, or, where that is impossible, lowered in size.

I do not have anything against record companies and publishers. I do, however, have something against their size and the huge amount of control they often have over artists. Getting a record deal is something musicians aspire for, and that's when they know they're finally on their way. They get so excited they sign away all their rights to everything without a second thought. And that's bad. That's what I'm against. Content creators should always, in my opinion, own what they have created. Artists have gotten in situations after their fall-outs with their record label where they are no longer legally allowed to play their own music. That's not okay.

In the case of smaller record companies and publishers, this doesn't seem to be as big of an issue.

And don't get me wrong, I harbor no ill will towards even giant record companies, even when they act unkindly to the artists they are making millions off of. They're just doing their job, and at the end of the day, everything is about money. I get that. But I think they are an old model, and they are dying. And that's okay with me.

Yes, technology makes self-publishing easier (as I know from my own activities) and I welcome the facilities that this offers, but it also makes pirating easier.

But, as I'm sure you're aware, technology isn't going away, and neither is piracy. It's impossible to stop people from pirating. It's easy for just about anyone with a basic knowledge of computers to do, and most methods are virtually untraceable. When I download a file from a server, the only people who know what I downloaded and that I downloaded it at all are the server I downloaded it from, who is providing the files and obviously will not sell me out, and my ISP, who would lose all its business if it were revealed that it was giving out its customers' private browsing details to the government. I'm sure they'd give up the details if confronted with a warrant, but you need sufficient reason to get a warrant, and you can't just use that warrant to look through the ISP's entire logs, only the ones you have a warrant for. And how are you going to get enough evidence for a warrant? The only other way one can prove it is to look on my computer and see my browsing history, which, again, requires a warrant. And, again, how are you going to get a warrant?

They are working but not well enough and they do need improvement and constant updating, but what they also need - and this has been and is likely to remain the most elusive goal of all - is global commonality, so that everyone involved knows exactly what they are and what royalty rates apply. Did you know that performance and broadcast royalty rates can vary by thousands of % from one country to another? I do not know why that is, but it would make life much easier if this was somehow evened out. But that's not going to happen before we have world government, which is unlikely to be established by the end of next week.

The internet will help fix this though. The fact that most of the world is connected by the internet and can talk to each other will cause the world to balance out, eventually. Currently, there are very rich countries and very poor countries, but the fact that people in very poor countries are now conscious of just how much better the conditions are in better countries will cause things to change. Maybe not in your lifetime, maybe not in mine, but I think they will change. Once most of the world has entered the modern era, it will be much easier for international law to exist and to be enforced. Until then...we can have these discussions!

On another note, you said you composed a 300 page piece. I'm assuming that wasn't the first piece you composed. Is there somewhere I could hear a sample of your other works? Do you write for piano? If so, do you have a publisher, and who is it?

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #39 on: August 28, 2012, 05:56:22 PM
On another note, you said you composed a 300 page piece. I'm assuming that wasn't the first piece you composed.

No, his first piece was 400 pages.

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Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #40 on: August 28, 2012, 11:18:46 PM
No, his first piece was 400 pages.
Bollox.

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Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #41 on: August 28, 2012, 11:37:23 PM
Unlikely, yet it happens all the time.
Would you care to cite some specific case history in corroboration of this, along with some statistics showing how common or not such cases are?

US companies are behind the majority of copyright claims, so the cases fall under US law.
Again, can you prove this with sufficient evidence and, even if you can and do, how do you see this as possibly affecting cases heard elsewhere?

And yes, I understand that you can't stop the courts or the police from doing things not allowed/intended by the laws, but that's hardly a reason to just sit by and say, "Sorry, nothing we can do about it. Oh well." Who watches the watchmen?
It's a well know FAQ in all walks of legal, political and other life, not just that of intellectual property.

a better balance needs to be struck in order to allow the content creators to earn profits from their labor while their culture is still allowed to spread.
But how might you see such a balance as being strikeable, anywhere?

For instance, explain how it makes sense that 59 years after his death, I am still unable to print out Prokofiev's works legally. I understand that he and his publisher ought to own rights to his music while alive, and even for a while after his death, to support his family and such, but 70 years after his death, very few, if any, people Prokofiev ever even knew in life will still be alive. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me either way since I buy all my music whether it's public domain or not, but really!
Prokofiev was widely performed during his lifetime but other composers are not necessarily so; whilst there's no right after-death term that would ever be universally agreeable, 70 years has been chosen in order to try to protect those legatees of composers whose work might not have enjoyed the widespread currency of that of Prokofiev and others during the composer's lifetime.

I'm not suggesting you work for free, I'm suggesting that when doing things like this, the middle man should be cut out, or, where that is impossible, lowered in size.
But how would you do this, especially in cases such as the orchestral examples that I mentioned?

I do not have anything against record companies and publishers. I do, however, have something against their size and the huge amount of control they often have over artists. Getting a record deal is something musicians aspire for, and that's when they know they're finally on their way. They get so excited they sign away all their rights to everything without a second thought. And that's bad. That's what I'm against. Content creators should always, in my opinion, own what they have created. Artists have gotten in situations after their fall-outs with their record label where they are no longer legally allowed to play their own music. That's not okay.
No, it isn't - but what you're writing about here is quite different to the examples that I cited and it does not answer the questions posed by such examples.

In the case of smaller record companies and publishers, this doesn't seem to be as big of an issue.
Really? Then just go ask the kind of small record companies that do what the particular one did for my work! The money for it all has to come from somewhere!

And don't get me wrong, I harbor no ill will towards even giant record companies, even when they act unkindly to the artists they are making millions off of. They're just doing their job, and at the end of the day, everything is about money. I get that. But I think they are an old model, and they are dying. And that's okay with me.
Whether or not it is so, this is not just about record companies or publishers or any individual profession in particular; it's about artists who create copyright material and who need the services of others to put forward the fruits of their often considerable labours to consumers.

But, as I'm sure you're aware, technology isn't going away, and neither is piracy. It's impossible to stop people from pirating. It's easy for just about anyone with a basic knowledge of computers to do, and most methods are virtually untraceable. When I download a file from a server, the only people who know what I downloaded and that I downloaded it at all are the server I downloaded it from, who is providing the files and obviously will not sell me out, and my ISP, who would lose all its business if it were revealed that it was giving out its customers' private browsing details to the government. I'm sure they'd give up the details if confronted with a warrant, but you need sufficient reason to get a warrant, and you can't just use that warrant to look through the ISP's entire logs, only the ones you have a warrant for. And how are you going to get enough evidence for a warrant? The only other way one can prove it is to look on my computer and see my browsing history, which, again, requires a warrant. And, again, how are you going to get a warrant?

The internet will help fix this though. The fact that most of the world is connected by the internet and can talk to each other will cause the world to balance out, eventually. Currently, there are very rich countries and very poor countries, but the fact that people in very poor countries are now conscious of just how much better the conditions are in better countries will cause things to change. Maybe not in your lifetime, maybe not in mine, but I think they will change. Once most of the world has entered the modern era, it will be much easier for international law to exist and to be enforced. Until then...we can have these discussions!
The internet is not owned by any legislative unit and so might make many things possible but will not and cannot ensure adherence to laws. Be wary of what warrants might be issued in conjunction with people's browsing history; technological advances will as likely make this as possible as it already makes legitimate and illegitimate uploading and downloading possible - and do once again bear in mind that artists who lose out over pirating will become less and less able and incentivised to do any creative work.

On another note, you said you composed a 300 page piece. I'm assuming that wasn't the first piece you composed. Is there somewhere I could hear a sample of your other works? Do you write for piano? If so, do you have a publisher, and who is it?
No, it wasn't the first, although it was a very early one amongst my extant works. There are currently three CD recordings of my work on the Altarus label and, if you're interested, please check out www.altarusrecords.com and/or www.sorabji-archive.co.uk for more information. I do indeed write for piano and I self-publish (again, see www.sorabji-archive.co.uk for details of the works that I issue).

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #42 on: August 29, 2012, 12:16:20 AM
Would you care to cite some specific case history in corroboration of this, along with some statistics showing how common or not such cases are?
Again, can you prove this with sufficient evidence and, even if you can and do, how do you see this as possibly affecting cases heard elsewhere?

No, I cannot. I have been unable to find any significant data in a single place with regards to copyright infringement cases. However, I did find this which made me realize I was working with old information. Apparently, the RIAA has stopped their lawsuits, and did so a while ago. I also found that the RIAA had decided upon $750 per $.70 song, which means my statements earlier were either exaggerated or outdated.

It's very difficult to find information on this stuff because most of it comes in the form of news articles, which news sites delete after a very short while. That second link is to a cache of a news site from several years ago.

It's a well know FAQ in all walks of legal, political and other life, not just that of intellectual property.

Yes, that is correct, but it doesn't help with the situation either. You basically said, "It's a fact of life, deal with it", when in reality, it doesn't have to be a fact of life. The answer is we watch the watchmen, but only if we realize that we can.

But how might you see such a balance as being strikeable, anywhere?

With laws that increase what falls under fair use. By allowing music to fall into the public domain after a reasonable amount of time.

But how would you do this, especially in cases such as the orchestral examples that I mentioned?

It doesn't take a record company nearly the size of the ones that exist to pay to record an orchestra, and then any immediate losses should be made up for in record sales. And if the sales of the CD don't pay for the price of the recording, there won't be another one.

Really? Then just go ask the kind of small record companies that do what the particular one did for my work! The money for it all has to come from somewhere!

It'll come in the form of a downpayment, and be returned in the form of record sales. If the record sales can't pay for the downpayment, maybe the record should never have been created in the first place.

Whether or not it is so, this is not just about record companies or publishers or any individual profession in particular; it's about artists who create copyright material and who need the services of others to put forward the fruits of their often considerable labours to consumers.
The internet is not owned by any legislative unit and so might make many things possible but will not and cannot ensure adherence to laws. Be wary of what warrants might be issued in conjunction with people's browsing history; technological advances will as likely make this as possible as it already makes legitimate and illegitimate uploading and downloading possible - and do once again bear in mind that artists who lose out over pirating will become less and less able and incentivised to do any creative work.

I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it will happen, so if money from recordings is the only thing keeping anyone being creative, creativity will die.

And at least in the US, people will not stand for the government regulating the internet. Many people here are passionate that it is a violation of 1st and 4th amendment rights. Yes, the government certainly can look through all our mail. It's physically very possible. But it's not something people will allow.

No, it wasn't the first, although it was a very early one amongst my extant works. There are currently three CD recordings of my work on the Altarus label and, if you're interested, please check out www.altarusrecords.com and/or www.sorabji-archive.co.uk for more information. I do indeed write for piano and I self-publish (again, see www.sorabji-archive.co.uk for details of the works that I issue).

I will look into it, thank you.

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #43 on: August 29, 2012, 07:32:28 AM
You basically said, "It's a fact of life, deal with it", when in reality, it doesn't have to be a fact of life. The answer is we watch the watchmen, but only if we realize that we can.
I didn't. I merely observed that this kind of situation affects all walks of legal life, not just that of intellectual property rights. We can indeed watch the watchmen but we cannot directly change the law - any law - we have to lobby lawmakers and/or ensure the election of a different government if we want to do that.

With laws that increase what falls under fair use. By allowing music to fall into the public domain after a reasonable amount of time.
But what IS a reasonable amount of time and how could universal international agreement on what constitutes it ever be reached? In many countries it used to be 50 years and now it's 70. Any fair and realistic assessment of what is a reasonable amount of time should take account of the fact that some composers' work receives little attention during their lifetime; however, consider also the example of Elliott Carter's James Joyce setting My love is in a light attire which dates from 1928 and will not enter the public domain until 2092 and even then only if the composer dies this year, which hopefully he won't; this means that its copyright term will be at least 154 years, which might seem excessive for any work but you would surely not expect the law to control the length of Elliott Carter's creative life, would you?! I'll bet that such an idea would run counter to all manner of amendments in US!

It doesn't take a record company nearly the size of the ones that exist to pay to record an orchestra, and then any immediate losses should be made up for in record sales. And if the sales of the CD don't pay for the price of the recording, there won't be another one.
And in cases where the sales don't cover the costs, that's OK with you, is it? Bear in mind that many record companies sell through distributors who then sell to retailers, so by the time their respective cuts have been taken, the company probably gets little more than one third of the CD's retail price so, once it's then deducted its own costs and taxes on what's left, it becomes abundantly clear that it would have to sell many thousands of copies of anything just to break even. If it goes the download route instead of physical CD manufacture, the price for each download will obviously be far less than the price of a physical CD, so although the record company can reduce its cots and cut out the middlemen, it also slashes its per product revenues, so it may not help all that much, if at all, in overcoming this problem.

It'll come in the form of a downpayment, and be returned in the form of record sales. If the record sales can't pay for the downpayment, maybe the record should never have been created in the first place.
Ah, so recordings of safe bet repertoire performed by with safe bet artists only, then; that would certainly mean that a lot of music doesn't get recorded and a lot of artists don't get recorded performing it, then!

I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it will happen, so if money from recordings is the only thing keeping anyone being creative, creativity will die.
Well, fortunately it isn't, but the same affects live performances too, so in fact it is a larger problem that one that applies only to the recording industry's input into the scene.

And at least in the US, people will not stand for the government regulating the internet. Many people here are passionate that it is a violation of 1st and 4th amendment rights. Yes, the government certainly can look through all our mail. It's physically very possible. But it's not something people will allow.
It's been mooted over here but it is already accepted the UK people won't stand for it either; that said, we're talking laws here, though if the law says that the government can't do such things, the government is still capable of doing so as long as the technology allows, for governments can break their own laws if so they choose.

I will look into it, thank you.
You're very welcome.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #44 on: August 29, 2012, 02:09:20 PM
But what IS a reasonable amount of time and how could universal international agreement on what constitutes it ever be reached? In many countries it used to be 50 years and now it's 70. Any fair and realistic assessment of what is a reasonable amount of time should take account of the fact that some composers' work receives little attention during their lifetime; however, consider also the example of Elliott Carter's James Joyce setting My love is in a light attire which dates from 1928 and will not enter the public domain until 2092 and even then only if the composer dies this year, which hopefully he won't; this means that its copyright term will be at least 154 years, which might seem excessive for any work but you would surely not expect the law to control the length of Elliott Carter's creative life, would you?! I'll bet that such an idea would run counter to all manner of amendments in US!

I don't have a perfect answer. I would be fine with the copyright outliving the artist by 10 years, but I don't think that's something you would agree with. I'm curious, why do you think it matters whether the works received attention during the artist's lifetime?

And in cases where the sales don't cover the costs, that's OK with you, is it? Bear in mind that many record companies sell through distributors who then sell to retailers, so by the time their respective cuts have been taken, the company probably gets little more than one third of the CD's retail price so, once it's then deducted its own costs and taxes on what's left, it becomes abundantly clear that it would have to sell many thousands of copies of anything just to break even. If it goes the download route instead of physical CD manufacture, the price for each download will obviously be far less than the price of a physical CD, so although the record company can reduce its cots and cut out the middlemen, it also slashes its per product revenues, so it may not help all that much, if at all, in overcoming this problem.

Well, if it doesn't cover the costs, it shouldn't have been created in the first place, from a business perspective. Obviously, one cannot know this for sure before creating the album, but they can get a pretty good idea, and if the album does not sell well, another will not be paid for. At this point, it's best to think, perhaps this recording is more to do with an artistic decision than a business one, in which case the recording should be paid for by someone who is not looking to make money, but rather just likes the art. If even that cannot be paid for, well, out of luck, I guess. I don't know where else you expect the money to come from. Even in the current situation, it doesn't make sense for a business to pay to record an orchestra playing music no one wants to hear.

Ah, so recordings of safe bet repertoire performed by with safe bet artists only, then; that would certainly mean that a lot of music doesn't get recorded and a lot of artists don't get recorded performing it, then!

The sad reality is, yes, unless you can find someone with money who is willing to spend it to record a piece very few people actually care to hear. Perhaps it would make more sense to record live performances, which I think can usually pay for themselves. You've already paid the musicians to perform, and people are paying to come see them. Just add the costs of a few mics recording the musicians, which most concert halls already have, I think, and that's that. Many of my favorite recordings are live.

Well, fortunately it isn't, but the same affects live performances too, so in fact it is a larger problem that one that applies only to the recording industry's input into the scene.

It's been mooted over here but it is already accepted the UK people won't stand for it either; that said, we're talking laws here, though if the law says that the government can't do such things, the government is still capable of doing so as long as the technology allows, for governments can break their own laws if so they choose.

Yes, and given that we don't live in a totalitarian state (at least in the US, can't speak for the UK :P ), the information about government corruption will eventually get out, and people will be fired, etc. Government corruption has been happening for as long as there is government, and it can't be stopped. But if the people of a country are attentive, such corruption will be weeded out eventually, only to be replaced by more later on.

Either way, it's irrelevant. The government can obtain the data, sure, but what is it going to do with it? Take you away in the middle of the night? No, you'd be given a trial, and in a trial (in the US), evidence obtained illegally is not permitted to be used. And it doesn't matter anyway, because the government isn't the one who cares if you pirate music and movies, it's the RIAA. So the government isn't going to look into people's internet usage records for the purposes of suing you for copyright infringement since it's the RIAA who is doing the suing.

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #45 on: August 29, 2012, 04:20:41 PM
I don't have a perfect answer. I would be fine with the copyright outliving the artist by 10 years, but I don't think that's something you would agree with. I'm curious, why do you think it matters whether the works received attention during the artist's lifetime?
Quite simply because if some of them are not performed, recorded or broadcast during his/her lifetime, they may have a very short copyright self-life, especially if 10 years after death were to be set as the accepted norm. As you probably know, I am responsible for the music for Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji (1892-1988), whose creative life spanned the years 1915-1984 and some of his works have yet to receive their first performances whereas others were first performed many years ago. The Carter example that I cited earlier is an example of an enormously long copyright shelf-life, although a set term equivalent to the preset one does even matters out somewhat.

Well, if it doesn't cover the costs, it shouldn't have been created in the first place, from a business perspective. Obviously, one cannot know this for sure before creating the album, but they can get a pretty good idea, and if the album does not sell well, another will not be paid for. At this point, it's best to think, perhaps this recording is more to do with an artistic decision than a business one, in which case the recording should be paid for by someone who is not looking to make money, but rather just likes the art. If even that cannot be paid for, well, out of luck, I guess. I don't know where else you expect the money to come from. Even in the current situation, it doesn't make sense for a business to pay to record an orchestra playing music no one wants to hear.
If everyone took that attitude, there would be very little new music left and a great deal less exposure to earlier music as well. Almost no "classical" music makes a profit - and I'm not just talking about recordings here but also broadcasts and live performances. You can fill a concert hall with a paying audience at quite high ticket prices and still make a loss. Most "classical" music activity has to be subsidised, either by charitable trusts, the state, local government, private individuals and corporations and anywhere else from which money for it can be found. Why stop at recording (which is what you write about mostly here)? The work of mine that I mentioned earlier didn't cover its own costs, let alone the additional ones for recording it, so would your argument in principle be that it shouldn't have been written in the first place?

The sad reality is, yes, unless you can find someone with money who is willing to spend it to record a piece very few people actually care to hear. Perhaps it would make more sense to record live performances, which I think can usually pay for themselves. You've already paid the musicians to perform, and people are paying to come see them. Just add the costs of a few mics recording the musicians, which most concert halls already have, I think, and that's that. Many of my favorite recordings are live.
That's all very well and, of course, there are already plenty of recordings of live performances but, as I wrote above, live performances also usually make a loss. Just think for a moment about a symphony orchestra of 100 players with average salaries of £30Kp.a.; that's c.£3m p.a. just for their salaries. Add in the tax costs of employing them all, then add holiday pay, then salaries for orchestral management, librarian, administration, marketing &c., then add transportation costs for touring and the venue costs for the orchestra's home performance space, then add the costs of royalties due on any copyright works that it performs - oh and let's not forget the conductor and any soloists booked to perform with it - and you're already at an eight-figure sum. The orchestra generates little income apart from box office and no one pays to listen to it rehearsing so, if you suppose that it gives, say, c.120 performances p.a., it would have to generate in excess of £10K per performance in net box office revenue - that's box office revenue after collection costs, taxes and the rest - just to break even, so a more realistic gross box office receipt figure might be nearer to £15m p.a. IN terms of profit-making ability, it doesn't look all that good, does it?..

Yes, and given that we don't live in a totalitarian state (at least in the US, can't speak for the UK :P ), the information about government corruption will eventually get out, and people will be fired, etc. Government corruption has been happening for as long as there is government, and it can't be stopped. But if the people of a country are attentive, such corruption will be weeded out eventually, only to be replaced by more later on.
Only to be replaced by more immediately, I'd say.

Either way, it's irrelevant. The government can obtain the data, sure, but what is it going to do with it? Take you away in the middle of the night? No, you'd be given a trial, and in a trial (in the US), evidence obtained illegally is not permitted to be used. And it doesn't matter anyway, because the government isn't the one who cares if you pirate music and movies, it's the RIAA. So the government isn't going to look into people's internet usage records for the purposes of suing you for copyright infringement since it's the RIAA who is doing the suing.
Indeed, but direct government interference in pirating is simply unrealistic beyond carrying out its duty to set and monitor laws to govern it; it's up to the police and the courts to do the rest.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #46 on: August 29, 2012, 07:47:28 PM
Bollox.

Best,

Alistair

HAHAHA, love it.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #47 on: August 29, 2012, 09:03:10 PM
Quite simply because if some of them are not performed, recorded or broadcast during his/her lifetime, they may have a very short copyright self-life, especially if 10 years after death were to be set as the accepted norm. As you probably know, I am responsible for the music for Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji (1892-1988), whose creative life spanned the years 1915-1984 and some of his works have yet to receive their first performances whereas others were first performed many years ago. The Carter example that I cited earlier is an example of an enormously long copyright shelf-life, although a set term equivalent to the preset one does even matters out somewhat.

I'm still missing what the problem is here. Will they not be performed if they are out of copyright? Does Sorabji have family who need the money? God knows Sorabji doesn't need it anymore.

If everyone took that attitude, there would be very little new music left and a great deal less exposure to earlier music as well. Almost no "classical" music makes a profit - and I'm not just talking about recordings here but also broadcasts and live performances. You can fill a concert hall with a paying audience at quite high ticket prices and still make a loss. Most "classical" music activity has to be subsidised, either by charitable trusts, the state, local government, private individuals and corporations and anywhere else from which money for it can be found. Why stop at recording (which is what you write about mostly here)? The work of mine that I mentioned earlier didn't cover its own costs, let alone the additional ones for recording it, so would your argument in principle be that it shouldn't have been written in the first place?

Well then, of course I have no problem with it. That would all fall under my comment, "in which case the recording should be paid for by someone who is not looking to make money, but rather just likes the art." The record industry dying or becoming much smaller doesn't reduce the amount of money in the world, it just puts it in different places, and other companies, people, trusts, etc. could just as easily pay for recordings, could they not?

That's all very well and, of course, there are already plenty of recordings of live performances but, as I wrote above, live performances also usually make a loss. Just think for a moment about a symphony orchestra of 100 players with average salaries of £30Kp.a.; that's c.£3m p.a. just for their salaries. Add in the tax costs of employing them all, then add holiday pay, then salaries for orchestral management, librarian, administration, marketing &c., then add transportation costs for touring and the venue costs for the orchestra's home performance space, then add the costs of royalties due on any copyright works that it performs - oh and let's not forget the conductor and any soloists booked to perform with it - and you're already at an eight-figure sum. The orchestra generates little income apart from box office and no one pays to listen to it rehearsing so, if you suppose that it gives, say, c.120 performances p.a., it would have to generate in excess of £10K per performance in net box office revenue - that's box office revenue after collection costs, taxes and the rest - just to break even, so a more realistic gross box office receipt figure might be nearer to £15m p.a. IN terms of profit-making ability, it doesn't look all that good, does it?..

Yes, I understand now how expensive they are, but how does this situation change if the record industry were to die? It sounds like donations are the only thing keeping concerts happening, and would the donations cease if the record industry collapsed?

Offline ahinton

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #48 on: August 30, 2012, 05:38:04 AM
I'm still missing what the problem is here. Will they not be performed if they are out of copyright? Does Sorabji have family who need the money? God knows Sorabji doesn't need it anymore.
On the contrary, I think that you are seeing a problem where there isn't one under the present régime; there has to be a decision made as to what represents a reasonable copyright term and the current one does at least mean that a composer's last works will still have some copyright shelf life which they would not have, for example, if copyright ended with the composer's death.

Well then, of course I have no problem with it. That would all fall under my comment, "in which case the recording should be paid for by someone who is not looking to make money, but rather just likes the art." The record industry dying or becoming much smaller doesn't reduce the amount of money in the world, it just puts it in different places, and other companies, people, trusts, etc. could just as easily pay for recordings, could they not?
This already happens, to the extent of assistance in the funding of some recordings, especially those made by smaller companies - but you are concentrating on the record industry whereas pirating of music is not confined to recorded or broadcast performances but extends also to live performances but far more so to published and unpublished scores. If a self-publishing composer loses sales revenue to thieves who pirate his/her work or if licensees of performance venues fail to make due copyright returns in respect of performances of his/her work, is all that acceptable to you? I would also imagine that it's not a lot of fun for a person or organisation that commissions a work from a composer to find that it gets pirated in any form.

Yes, I understand now how expensive they are, but how does this situation change if the record industry were to die? It sounds like donations are the only thing keeping concerts happening, and would the donations cease if the record industry collapsed?
The might possibly increase, if only because that industry's demise would obviously mean that it would no longer be calling for assistance - but, once again, you are seeking to confine your remarks on piracy to the record industry which is only one area of music making where this problem arises.

One problem with some of those who expect to have all their recorded music for free is that they never stop to think that they would not as a rule expect also to be able to obtain unlimited supplies of free concert tickets; another is that they assume that composers perform some kind of public service to society that therefore does not need to be paid for, which is an odd attitude when one remembers that other public services for society don't come for free!

I am not presenting any kind of anti-capitalist viewpoint here but, as I have said previously, the composition, performance, recording and broadcast of music has to be paid for just like anything else that costs money and that funding has to be sought from as many sources as possible at all times, especially because most such activity is of itself neither designed nor destined to generate financial profits and neither box office receipts nor record purchases nor broadcast license fee receipts will alone suffice to keep any of these things afloat (imagine from what sources BBC in Britain could contrive to fund its symphony orchestras and its "classical" station Radio 3 without the benefit of a share of its license fee revenues!).

Again, whilst we can applaud just how very much repertoire is now available by means of recording and how much more of it gets performed than was once the case, the inevitable downside of this is an ever-increasingly flooded market in which no one can constantly expand the amount of time available to listen to music (from which fact it becomes clear that it's not even all about the money); would we want to go back to the days when so much less music was available?

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline davidjosepha

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Re: What do you guys think of pirating?
Reply #49 on: August 30, 2012, 02:09:50 PM
On the contrary, I think that you are seeing a problem where there isn't one under the present régime; there has to be a decision made as to what represents a reasonable copyright term and the current one does at least mean that a composer's last works will still have some copyright shelf life which they would not have, for example, if copyright ended with the composer's death.

I'm hearing that, but I don't understand why the work being in copyright for a period of time matters if the composer isn't getting any money from it anyway.

but you are concentrating on the record industry whereas pirating of music is not confined to recorded or broadcast performances but extends also to live performances but far more so to published and unpublished scores.

I guess I am biased here because I don't understand why one would possibly want to pirate sheet music. Printing it off on your own crappy printer and having to deal with a ton of loose papers vs. having a nice, clean edition doesn't make sense to me.

You mention published and unpublished scores...how does one go about obtaining the music for a score that won't be published without piracy? Or would you just say that you don't obtain it?
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