Music as Revelation - According to Beethoven

[m1469]

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" LV. Beethoven

What do you suppose he meant, exactly?  Is it in itself a philosophy, or just a matter of personal values, or is there something more principled about it?  Perhaps it's just another way of saying "music starts where words end."  :-

And, why "revelation" vs. something like "creation" or "concept" or such?


PS - don't worry, here I go, burying myself deeply into Bachlandia and such (after a quite good night's sleep!)

[outin]

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" LV. Beethoven

I don't know what he meant, but for me it could just mean that music has the ability to make everything else seem unimportant.

[hmpiano]

Who are you?  What you feel.  Beethoven was able to can that.

[pts1]

Oh, wonderful!

More interview material by PianoStreet's favorite poster.

Were m1469 a national political figure, comedians everywhere would love her for being
the "gift that keeps on giving" roughly the equivalent in lampooning potential as George Bush.

I thank you, and the fans of The m1469 Interviews thank you. 

Poor, poor Walker! 

[m1469]

Oh, wonderful!

More interview material by PianoStreet's favorite poster.

Were m1469 a national political figure, comedians everywhere would love her for being
the "gift that keeps on giving" roughly the equivalent in lampooning potential as George Bush.

I thank you, and the fans of The m1469 Interviews thank you.  

Poor, poor Walker!  

I value you  .


*returns to Bachtopia*

[pianowolfi]

"All wisdom and philosophy" as it is used by Beethoven in this context, relates to the wisdom that is shared through the medium of words. And words are unfortunately often a source of ambiguity and misunderstandings.

In contrast to words music delivers wisdom more directly to the core of the human soul and speaks more directly to our feelings, so we can grasp wisdom directly, not only with our intellect, but with our feelings too.

So he basically says that there is less ambiguity and misunderstanding in the musical "language" than in the spoken or written language, and he says that we are much closer to the source of wisdom when we hear or make music.

The term "revelation" in German (as well as in English) is used for the biblical "revelation" as well as for the "revelation" that a certain individual can have for himself, and share with others, independently from any other context.

[pts1]

I value you.

Excellent. I shall carry forth.

Just think how fortunate you are to have your very own lampooner!

Truly we are blessed with the bounty of your... er... bounty.

[m1469]

Just think how fortunate you are to have your very own lampooner!

Oh, no.  I do not kid myself believing it has got anything to do with me!  


What, anyway, I am supposed to "stop feeding the troll" or so?  Pass the test and carry on as though it's not happening?  Yes, that would be the definition of "ready," wouldn't it?  That's what it's supposed to look like, I guess.  When do I learn to do what am I being taught   .

[j_menz]

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" LV. Beethoven

Wisdom and philosophy are about God whereas music is of God.

Beethoven believed in God, so one has to read his meaning in that light.

[pts1]

Oh, no.  I do not kid myself believing it has got anything to do with me!

Tell yourself anything you like, Sweet Cheeks, but it has everything to do with you.

You did, after all, start the whole thing.... remember?

What... bemused now, are you?

What, anyway, I am supposed to "stop feeding the troll" or so?  Pass the test and carry on as though it's not happening?  Yes, that would be the definition of "ready," wouldn't it?  That's what it's supposed to look like, I guess.  When do I learn to do what am I being taught

Excellent. This almost does not make sense. Your blogging is full of this type of semi-coherent, gobbledygook...lots of words saying almost nothing.

But I'll try and answer these questions anyway: No, yes, no, yes, maybe, sort of , kind of, someday perhaps, when hell freezes over.

You may choose from these answers as you like, and as you can see there are more answers than you have questions, so if you don't like the way one fits, take it off and try another.

See, I value you, too.

[m1469]

“Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend.”

LV Beethoven

[jesc]

I have the same stance, viewing it from the communication perspective (music relative to a form of language, words etc.).

IMO, music may sometimes be able to express, share or communicate feelings words can't describe. This is a view I realized a long time ago when I was more emotional. It's a view I hold in retrospect cause right now, my emotion is a bit of an empty shell. My empty emotional state also affected my playing. TBH it has been years since any kind of music really moved me (if I'm forced to recall, the last one probably was Beethoven's Symphony no. 7 A major, 2nd movement). 

 

[m1469]

Here's something interesting that comes to mind with regard to language vs. music.  If you were to strip everything down to just sound (or just scribbles on a page), including words in any dialect and language, notes/pitches on the piano or any instrumentation, everything is fundamentally *just* sound (or scribbles), I don't really see how one would innately be more direct or effective than another, since in effect it's all just plain sound (or scirbbles  ).  Sometimes even what I see as words directly and profoundly affect my ideas and view of the world - why/how?  Especially considering I could have read or heard the same thing for years and then one day, BAM, it strikes without warning.

[goldentone]

J.W.N. Sullivan:

It [the ninth] is a revelation of existence as seen from the vantage point of a higher consciousness.  In the ninth symphony Beethoven has, in this respect, so far surpassed the norm of great artists that he cannot influence them.  The human mind may be likened to some kind of multiple plant, here in full bloom, there still in the bud.  Different minds have flowered in different ways.  Beethoven had reached relative maturity in directions where those of us who respond to him are still in the stage of embryonic growth.  And in some people, it is obvious, there is no germ of consciousness akin to the state of awareness manifested by the late Beethoven.  In his earlier works, however, he is concerned with states of consciousness that most of us can share.  For this reason his earlier work has influenced other musicians, in content as well as in form.  But there is no music subsequent to Beethoven whose spiritual content is of the order expresed in the ninth symphony.  No other musician has ever risen to the state of awareness necessary to write the first movement of that symphony, or possessed the power of synthesizing his experience necessary to write its third movement.  Beethoven has shown that it is within the resouces of music to express these state of consciounsess but, of the great followers of Beethoven, neither Wagner nor Brahms has been in a position to profit by the demonstration.

[goldentone]

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