stronger fingers

[ladychopin]

Do you know a way to make all my 10 fingers much sronger and muscles when I don't play the piano? maybe, like playing scales on the table.
Do you have any idea?

[lloyd_cdb]

Place your hand on the table as if you would be playing.  Lift one finger a few times while keeping the rest on the table.  go through all your fingers doing this.  Then lift 2 at a time and different combinations of which ones you lift.

Another one is to put your palms and fingers flat against each other.  Use one finger on one hand to push against that finger on the other hand.  Do this back and forth for each finger.  Use two fingers like you did in the previous exercise as well.  I also find this to be a nice warm up exercise on my way to the piano to save a little bit of time.  When warming up, I'll do the push with my index fingers, and then fold those two over each other, once on each side as a stretch, while keeping the rest of my hand flat against the other one.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I remember posting this question when I first joined pianostreet.

It doesn't matter how strong your fingers are.  What matters is how independent and dexterous they are.

[j_menz]

It is unlikely you need "stronger" fingers. You may well need mor independent fingers, or greater control over them.

An exercise I find useful when away from the piano is to hold your hands together with just the tips of the fingers touching. Then play "notes" or patterns, the same in each hand. If you are doingt it right, the fingers will reconnect back in the natural position; if you aren't you will reconnect one side or the other of that (or will miss the connection entirely). Use the biofeedback to get greater precision.

[jgallag]

j_menz, that is an absolutely fascinating exercise. I've never heard of it before, but it will certainly be something I experiment with.

I do know a way to make all ten fingers stronger: support them with your arm. Go to the keyboard and press a key down. Did you really need thick, meaty finger muscles to move such a small key? Use your bones, not your muscles. They weigh plenty to put the key down.

What I would really like to know is this: what is it you want to do that you can't, that someone has told you (or you intuited) that you could do if you only had stronger fingers? Specifically, musically, what is your goal?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It is unlikely you need "stronger" fingers. You may well need mor independent fingers, or greater control over them.

An exercise I find useful when away from the piano is to hold your hands together with just the tips of the fingers touching. Then play "notes" or patterns, the same in each hand. If you are doingt it right, the fingers will reconnect back in the natural position; if you aren't you will reconnect one side or the other of that (or will miss the connection entirely). Use the biofeedback to get greater precision.

Why didn't you freaking tell me that when I posted that question several months ago?!!?!?!

[chopin2015]

Trill! move them as fast as possible while being impossibly relaxed and easy about it. do in one hand 2 rhythms at the same time, alternating fingers. then 2 hands and then as many things in different times as possible.

[j_menz]

Why didn't you freaking tell me that when I posted that question several months ago?!!?!?!

That you didn't need stronger fingers (which, if I said anything then, I would have), or about my little exercise?  I thought everyone did stuff like that.

[adam2]

I agree with all above, do not try your make your fingers stronger. Your hand muscles catch up so fast that anything that you are not strong enough to play at full speed during your first year your hand can do with thoughtful practice in a matter of days.  The primary problem you are probably running into is a lack of fluid and conservative coordination and neural activation, which just a link in the delicate chain of comprehension, organization, queue, and neuromuscular activation for a maybe completely or partially fallacious view of the goal.  This is the perpetual challenge of every pianist, and the art is in the details. History is riddled with famous and ingenious artists who became composers or just quit altogether because of an injury they caused by isolating fingers, attempting to strengthen their hand, or try to improve their dexterity extracurricularly and without supervision. 

Humans are weak, but the the piano key resists at three grams thereabout

I used to be on the amateur powerlifting circuit, and I can go on all day about examples where when the testosterone and ego clouded kids' judgement  broke their back, ripped a muscle, popped an artery, passed out, etc because they didnt understand that even in the sport of strongest people, technique is key, and the strength is the easy part

I've seen experienced yet misinformed lifters multiply their deadlift after a lesson in finesse or technique, just as an intermediate pianist can multiply their scale speed after simply finding a simpler hand action or realizing that going up requires a different technique than going down (I took that for granted for years), or just by refining their thumb action.

[richard black]

Actual brute strength seems to have rather little to do with it. I have strong hands and fingers (in the sense that I can do quite a lot of heavy manual work, lifting, etc. without tiring) and my wife doesn't by the same criteria, but she makes a bigger sound at the piano than I do, and she can do it on any instrument for hours straight.

[nyiregyhazi]

j_menz, that is an absolutely fascinating exercise. I've never heard of it before, but it will certainly be something I experiment with.

I do know a way to make all ten fingers stronger: support them with your arm. Go to the keyboard and press a key down. Did you really need thick, meaty finger muscles to move such a small key?

Absolutely, yes. Try playing op. 10 no. 2 by falling on every key- with the arm bouncing around instead of finger movements. Try voicing thick chords without finger power. The fingers need to be tremendously capable. The fingers don't need to be "strong" in the Arnie sense, but the typical claim that you don't need developed finger muscles misses the point every bit as much as the idea that it's about brute force. While I wouldn't compare to strength as in that used by a weight lifter, I'd think of the muscular power required required by an endurance rower or cyclist. It's no use flopping about without powerful fingers.

[iansinclair]

Be very careful!  As several folks have noted, it isn't really strength you are after, but dexterity.  Speed and flexibility.  Strength exercises run a serious risk of reducing both speed and dexterity!

I am a retired organist -- and even on very heavy tracker action organs (where the key is physically moving sliding wooden bars under the pipes) finger strength is still not anywhere near as important as speed and dexterity.  And on a piano?  There's no requirement!

So...

I love j_menz's exercise!

[perprocrastinate]

However, can we agree that weak finger joints (hypermobility) is a problem?

[nyiregyhazi]

Be very careful!  As several folks have noted, it isn't really strength you are after, but dexterity.  Speed and flexibility.  Strength exercises run a serious risk of reducing both speed and dexterity!

I am a retired organist -- and even on very heavy tracker action organs (where the key is physically moving sliding wooden bars under the pipes) finger strength is still not anywhere near as important as speed and dexterity.  And on a piano?  There's no requirement

This rationale is in reverse. To voice FFF chords, the fingers need to do more than stiffen to apply arm pressure. Organists merely depress keys at specific times. Pianists need to both create and control tone by varying acceleration. Sadly, many players makes poorly differentiated slabs of forceful sound via arm thrusts into a braced hand. Voicing chords with control requires every individual finger to provide acceleration. That requires far more finger power than playing the organ.

If you're not able to voice FFF chords like horowitz, neither are you in a position to say strength is not required.

[j_menz]

Pianists need to both create and control tone by varying acceleration. Sadly, many players makes poorly differentiated slabs of forceful sound via arm thrusts into a braced hand. Voicing chords with control requires every individual finger to provide acceleration. That requires far more finger power than playing the organ.

First two sentences are agreed.

However, rather than playing forcefully into a braced hand, or trying to generate all the force with fingers, you can play the arm down into a relaxed hand with the fingers applying differentiated force. This does not require great finger strength, just control.

That said, I myself find I have remarkably strong fingers. Never did anything special to get them though.

[nyiregyhazi]

First two sentences are agreed.

However, rather than playing forcefully into a braced hand, or trying to generate all the force with fingers, you can play the arm down into a relaxed hand with the fingers applying differentiated force. This does not require great finger strength, just control.

It's not perceived as strength in the same way as someone who tries to force things out imagines "strength" to be. However- that's exactly where the true strength lies. In the fact that the person doesn't perceive use of it. It's just the same as how a strong person lifts an 8kg dumbell with ease and a weak person strains. The one who has the strength is the one who just gets on with it in a matter of fact way.

There's a certain point where the arm cannot fully compensate for lack of finger action. Many amateur pianists voice by allowing "dead" or "empty" sounds in the weaker parts- where the fingers do very little. All the great pianists with a big rounded sound are positive in every finger- even when doing extreme voicing. The only way to achieve many effects- where there is both differentiation of voicing but genuine control (rather than a strong voice and an empty voice) is to engage the fingers plenty. I used to play the opening of the Chopin 2nd Scherzo with generic arm shoves. These days, I produce virtually all of the tone from the fingers- without pressing the arm through. Of course, it's not simply about brute finger force- there are all kinds of issues of alignment and setup. However, a few months ago I didn't have the physical strength to make a truly big sound this way. It took a lot of work to get to the point where the fingers are able to do enough for a truly big but differentiated sound- without the lumpy arm shoves. In the long run though, it makes a better sound and actually feels like less effort. My fingers were still grossly underperforming at this time:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HEpIgkCyqY

Although power is perhaps best developed by getting the coordination right than by being forceful, I think there are few pianists with the physical strength to produce well voiced chords at upper dynamic levels. Relatively few modern pianists can play truly loudly without making lumps of sound- because they fix the hand stiffly and force the arm rather than develop power in the movements. As soon as the arm shoves, it's really hard to produce extreme voicing. I'm not any master of the issue, but I can't overstate how much my sound has improved by looking to produce power from the hand itself- the arm as the optional extra.

[adam2]

It's so twentyfirst century how this thread has brought about such a colorful discussion.  I love it

Ladychopin, their is a disparity here between schools that amounts to a simple lack of definition in terminology, in my view.  And ive already given my view.

But the advice of any professional will tell you to reserve strength for those rare exceptions, and let your piano practice be the limit of your finger training.  The best voicings may require a high velocity in the hammer,  and this almost always is achieved by excellent technique and creative opportunism, not sheer power. I see resorting to finger strength is like using a 40lb crumbling sandstone rock to strike a nail into a piece of wood.  Use it if that's all ya got, but its cumbersome, exhausting and eventually that rock is gonna split, so use your perfectly good hammer.

A Guy was in a cycling shop in front of me the other day, and the mechanic working on his bike was trying to sell him on a lighter cassette(gears for the bike). The guy was pretty fit and seemed an avid cyclist, what with his skin tight clownsuit cycle gear ( I can't bring myself to where that stuff), and he responded, " I can always stand to loose a pound or two before I buy a new one.". I thought to myself, where the hell is he hiding these 'few pounds?', and concluded he was simply and smoothly opting out of the sales pitch

The point is still universal, anyway.

[adam2]

If you can't tell yet, I like metaphors and allegories heeeheee

Any construction worker will tell you to choke up on the hammer to get your coordination right, nice and easy.  No matter how long you've been doing it, the only way you can swing a hammer all day, regardless of how strong you are is to use a conservative, well-placed swing and the nail will go all the way in, one swing.  You will get pretty damn strong pushing nails in with brute force and you'll never finish the house.

[outin]

However, can we agree that weak finger joints (hypermobility) is a problem?

For some of us it is...not just fingers but wrists as well.
The problem here seems to be to balance between the constant muscle work needed to stabilize the joints to a proper position (easily causing stiffness) and keeping the muscles relaxed and flexible. Hope it  can be learned over time, but it certainly makes one extra challenge to playing (as it wasn't difficult enough).

[nyiregyhazi]

For some of us it is...not just fingers but wrists as well.
The problem here seems to be to balance between the constant muscle work needed to stabilize the joints to a proper position (easily causing stiffness) and keeping the muscles relaxed and flexible. Hope it  can be learned over time, but it certainly makes one extra challenge to playing (as it wasn't difficult enough).

I don't think the wrist should be doing much at all most of the time. If you get the combination of actions right, the wrist hardly has anything to do at all other than relax- yet balances in stability anyway. If you get it wrong, the wrist has to tighten to stay stable against gravity and reaction forces from moving the keys.  The real problem is not in the wrist but in the other components.  Whatever level of effort you require to keep the wrist aligned in the air, there should be LESS effort as soon as you have a key depressed- not more!
 
Try the end of this post:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/introduction-to-three-core-posts-on.html

If you can't get the wrist to loosen, it suggests that there are deficiencies in other parts of the mechanism that make impossible to be both loose and balanced. This is where finger strength really is an issue. If you're not connected well to the piano after grounding each key, the wrist will have to tighten to stop itself collapsing under gravity and then tighten further still with every key depression.

[deighve]

Got my finger power from the gym.  Weight lifting, hand curls, push-ups using hands then fingers, rowing, cycling, jogging; a well-kept bod will result in strong, well-coordinated fingers.    Three times a week only.  The keyboard practice is everyday, except Saturdays and Sundays and holidays.

[outin]

If you can't get the wrist to loosen, it suggests that there are deficiencies in other parts of the mechanism that make impossible to be both loose and balanced.

When the ligaments are very loose extra muscle tension is needed to keep the joints stable and in position. The same tension is also needed in everyday life. The hypermobility syndrome is quite annoying sometimes and causes all kinds of little problems, not just in playing the piano. It’s not just wrists, I am one of those people who twist my ankles all the time even while walking normally and my joints tend to snap and make strange noises. The problem is that over time the muscles stiffen because they have to work too much and one has to learn to notice this stiffness because it has become the "normal" state with time. The only way I know that helps is strengthening the muscles with exercise. For this reason I have found it quite useful to do finger/wrist exercises away from the piano.

[nyiregyhazi]

When the ligaments are very loose extra muscle tension is needed to keep the joints stable and in position. The same tension is also needed in everyday life. The hypermobility syndrome is quite annoying sometimes and causes all kinds of little problems, not just in playing the piano. It’s not just wrists, I am one of those people who twist my ankles all the time even while walking normally and my joints tend to snap and make strange noises. The problem is that over time the muscles stiffen because they have to work too much and one has to learn to notice this stiffness because it has become the "normal" state with time. The only way I know that helps is strengthening the muscles with exercise. For this reason I have found it quite useful to do finger/wrist exercises away from the piano.

I'm not convinced it works that way. If it were as you describe, you'd expect those with the most mobile wrists to stiffen them the most while playing. If anything, it's the opposite. As I say, there should be less effort in the wrist while playing than when holding the arm out. If not, you're not exploiting contact with the piano as a means of balancing the wrist. It's like a chain. When lengthened via the ends, no joint can collapse. When slack, joints in the middle sag unless fixed with localised effort. Only in the later scenario does the wrist need to be stiff to balance.

[49410enrique]

Do you know a way to make all my 10 fingers much sronger and muscles when I don't play the piano? ...Do you have any idea?

not sure about the other fingers i guess maybe something like this?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

not sure about the other fingers i guess maybe something like this?

I remember you showed me those photos when I asked this question.

[chopin2015]

Just do yoga!

[lloyd_cdb]

Just do yoga!

I do yoga:

[outin]

I'm not convinced it works that way. If it were as you describe, you'd expect those with the most mobile wrists to stiffen them the most while playing. If anything, it's the opposite. As I say, there should be less effort in the wrist while playing than when holding the arm out. If not, you're not exploiting contact with the piano as a means of balancing the wrist. It's like a chain. When lengthened via the ends, no joint can collapse. When slack, joints in the middle sag unless fixed with localised effort. Only in the later scenario does the wrist need to be stiff to balance.

How do you think the joints are extended? With the muscles of course. Why are you insisting about the wrist being stiff while playing, I said nothing of the kind. Being stable and being stiff are two different things.
I was talking about how one can learn to get rid of the stiffness by exercising and learning to use the muscles correctly. You need both muscle strenght and flexibility, as well as muscle sense. Some people have all this without any effort, but it is not so for everyone. They are very often lacking when the muscle balance is off or one has suffered pains for a long time. I assume you don't have medical training?

[49410enrique]

I remember you showed me those photos when I asked this question.

well the op asked. equal opportunity sarcasm i suppose....lol

just having fun with it since the OP did not specifically state in the original question the goal or why the fingers or how to strengthen then (i.e. is it for piano or because you want to be able to poke holes in brick wals with your pinky?....these are important considerations. ninja or pianist? theres probably  a little bit of difference in their training, not much i think but just a little...)

[nyiregyhazi]

How do you think the joints are extended? With the muscles of course. Why are you insisting about the wrist being stiff while playing, I said nothing of the kind. Being stable and being stiff are two different things.
I was talking about how one can learn to get rid of the stiffness by exercising and learning to use the muscles correctly. You need both muscle strenght and flexibility, as well as muscle sense. Some people have all this without any effort, but it is not so for everyone. They are very often lacking when the muscle balance is off or one has suffered pains for a long time. I assume you don't have medical training?

You're missing my point. The question is WHICH muscles are involved. If you presume it to be the wrist muscles in healthy technique you're not looking in the right place. Tie a flaccid corpse to a chair and pull its hand towards you. The wrist will align itself, as long as the arm is lengthened enough, as it hangs back from the hand. It's not a matter of activating the wrist muscles. A corpse can keep an aligned wrist- as long as the arm hangs back from a stable point in space. This is why quality of connection between finger and key is the single biggest factor in whether a wrist can be relaxed. Previously you suggested that having loose ligaments will mean wrist muscles have to work harder. That just isn't so,and reveals that you're doing too much with your wrist muscles that should be achieved elsewhere. Pianists don't rely on ligaments in the wrist. Mine can be moved around very easily. The work that keeps it stable while playing, however, is done at the shoulder end and the finger end. If you perceive the wrist doing anything other than just being there, chances are you're over working it and missing something elsewhere. In the wrist, you cannot be too loose. If being loose there causes instability then problems lie in underactivity elsewhere.

As I've said, the amount of activity required to have your wrist straight in the air should be your maximum. After that, ligaments make no difference. If anything, the more freedom and looseness the better. I can see how it would cause problems elsewhere, but not in the wrist. You should only be subtracting efforts from that near effortless start point. All great Pianists achieve stability primarily elsewhere- with absolutely minimal use of localised muscles in the wrist.

[j_menz]

ninja or pianist?

One can be both. 

[outin]

You're missing my point. The question is WHICH muscles are involved. If you presume it to be the wrist muscles in healthy technique you're not looking in the right place.

What wrist muscles? I doubt if I actually have much around there...
Maybe you should assume less when you read other people's posts. I admit I tend to be too short because I am not into long and elaborate explanations. I expect the reader to fill in the blanks. And obviously it doesn't always work, sorry

[nyiregyhazi]

What wrist muscles? I doubt if I actually have much around there...
Maybe you should assume less when you read other people's posts. I admit I tend to be too short because I am not into long and elaborate explanations. I expect the reader to fill in the blanks. And obviously it doesn't always work, sorry

I responded merely to your suggestion that loose ligaments in the wrist would be a disadvantage that means muscles have to work harder. Precisely what blanks you expected me to fill I'm, I'm afraid I have no idea.  Looseness of the wrist is never a disadvantage if the whole mechanism is working in the right way.

[nyiregyhazi]

For some of us it is...not just fingers but wrists as well.
The problem here seems to be to balance between the constant muscle work needed to stabilize the joints to a proper position (easily causing stiffness) and keeping the muscles relaxed and flexible. Hope it  can be learned over time, but it certainly makes one extra challenge to playing (as it wasn't difficult enough).

I'll just quote the above once again, as I reminder of why I made the points that I did.

Whether you realise it or not, if you get the impression that you're having to work muscles harder to compensate for what you perceive as a very loose wrist, it's extremely probable that you're tightening muscles around the wrist- rather than stabilising it from elsewhere. If I perceive any muscular effort in stabilising my wrist, it always tells me theres something wrong. Instead, I make sure the finger connects well and lengthen the arm back from it. From there, the effort in keeping the wrist aligned is zero. If you feel muscles being worked hard then you should definitely explore why.

[outin]

I responded merely to your suggestion that loose ligaments in the wrist would be a disadvantage that means muscles have to work harder. Precisely what blanks you expected me to fill I'm, I'm afraid I have no idea.  Looseness of the wrist is never a disadvantage if the whole mechanism is working in the right way.

Overly loose ligaments anywhere can be a disadvantage. In addition to being easily injured, it sometimes causes the parts of the joints to constantly move in directions where they are not supposed to. This causes so called friction pain and in worst cases inflammation of the joints. I am not talking about slight hypermobility, but more severe cases obviously.  Over time the muscles get used to overworked and tense to avoid this extra friction and that causes problems.

Looseness of the wrist is a good things when it means that the wrist is flexible but controlled by muscles, so of course hypermobility is not a problem with those who can use their muscles in the right way. But when the muscle balance is off, some muscles are too strong/tense and others are too weak. Obviously making the strong muscles weak is not the answer, but to strenghten the weak ones so that the balance is returned. To do this one first needs to be able to feel/isolate the weak muscles and this is in my experience a lot easier to do away from the piano. The keyboard topography and all the other aspects of playing propose a challenge that is interfering with this task.

Originally my post was meant to the other person who finds his hypermobility problematic, not for the majority of piano students who have a normally functioning joint/muscle system that just needs a little fixing here and there to play optimally.

[outin]

Whether you realise it or not, if you get the impression that you're having to work muscles harder to compensate for what you perceive as a very loose wrist, it's extremely probable that you're tightening muscles around the wrist- rather than stabilising it from elsewhere. If I perceive any muscular effort in stabilising my wrist, it always tells me theres something wrong. Instead, I make sure the finger connects well and lengthen the arm back from it. From there, the effort in keeping the wrist aligned is zero. If you feel muscles being worked hard then you should definitely explore why.

I am sorry, but I don't get your logic here at all...obviously I didn't express myself very well, if that was the conclusion you got from my post...

[nyiregyhazi]

I am sorry, but I don't get your logic here at all...obviously I didn't express myself very well, if that was the conclusion you got from my post...

You said yourself that you feel muscles having to work harder (and attributed it to looseness of ligaments n the wrist) and that you're not happy with the results yet. I'm sorry if you feel you're being attacked, but I'm simply pointing the only possible way to keep a stabilised wrist without a lot of localised muscular effort. If you're not happy with the results yet, simply try as I suggest and observe how easily the wrist stays aligned in a lengthened arm.

[nyiregyhazi]

Looseness of the wrist is a good things when it means that the wrist is flexible but controlled by muscles, so of course hypermobility is not a problem with those who can use their muscles in the right way. But when the muscle balance is off, some muscles are too strong/tense and others are too weak. Obviously making the strong muscles weak is not the answer, but to strenghten the weak ones so that the balance is returned. To do this one first needs to be able to feel/isolate the weak muscles and this is in my experience a lot easier to do away from the piano. The keyboard topography and all the other aspects of playing propose a challenge that is interfering with this task

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm certain you're looking in the wrong place. I have very loose wrists. I don't keep them stable due to tight ligaments. Neither do I use localised muscles to immobile them. That's the classic mistake in piano technique. It cripples you to attempt that. I keep them taut by lenghtening the arm as a whole- just as you can do to even a dead body. This requires no muscular strength at all. The shoulder muscles that pull back to lengthen the wrist are already strong enough for such a low effort task- very easily strong enough.

If you're imagining that strength of muscles or ligaments are what keep advanced pianists aligned in the wrist, you're honestly misunderstanding how they achieve their state of balance. It's not as you believe. It's a simple act of lengthening, the arm back from the finger. Please just try it, before making muscular weakness a scapegoat.

[outin]

You said yourself that you feel muscles having to work harder (and attributed it to looseness of ligaments n the wrist) and that you're not happy with the results yet. I'm sorry if you feel you're being attacked, but I'm simply pointing the only possible way to keep a stabilised wrist without a lot of localised muscular effort. If you're not happy with the results yet, simply try as I suggest and observe how easily the wrist stays aligned in a lengthened arm.

Sigh...I have had this problem for years (actually decades) before I touched the piano. My muscles were/are stiff and overworked and my muscle balance is off. When I started playing I simply could not ignore it anymore because it affected my playing. I have better days and worse days and on a bad day it very much still affects my playing. I did explain already what I meant in a previous post, I never meant to suggest that playing itself would require some extra muscular effort in the wrist area, quite the opposite. As my teacher puts it, the less the better...

BTW. Even if I had the expertice I would not try to diagnose someone without seeing what they are doing in person. I can talk about my own experience but I would not expect the other person to take it as informed advice on their own situation. But that's just me obviously.

[outin]

If you're imagining that strength of muscles or ligaments are what keep advanced pianists aligned in the wrist, you're honestly misunderstanding how they achieve their state of balance. It's not as you believe. It's a simple act of lengthening, the arm back from the finger. Please just try it, before making muscular weakness a scapegoat.

Are you imagining what I am thinking or am I really so bad in expressing myself...? In both cases I think this conversation is getting ridiculous

[nyiregyhazi]

Sigh...I have had this problem for years (actually decades) before I touched the piano. My muscles were/are stiff and overworked and my muscle balance is off. When I started playing I simply could not ignore it anymore because it affected my playing. I have better days and worse days and on a bad day it very much still affects my playing. I did explain already what I meant in a previous post, I never meant to suggest that playing itself would require some extra muscular effort in the wrist area, quite the opposite. As my teacher puts it, the less the better...

BTW. Even if I had the expertice I would not try to diagnose someone without seeing what they are doing in person. I can talk about my own experience but I would not expect the other person to take it as informed advice on their own situation. But that's just me obviously.

[nyiregyhazi]

Sigh...I have had this problem for years (actually decades) before I touched the piano. My muscles were/are stiff and overworked and my muscle balance is off. When I started playing I simply could not ignore it anymore because it affected my playing. I have better days and worse days and on a bad day it very much still affects my playing. I did explain already what I meant in a previous post, I never meant to suggest that playing itself would require some extra muscular effort in the wrist area, quite the opposite. As my teacher puts it, the less the better...

BTW. Even if I had the expertice I would not try to diagnose someone without seeing what they are doing in person. I can talk about my own experience but I would not expect the other person to take it as informed advice on their own situation. But that's just me obviously.

I am not making any diagnosis. There are only two posible ways to support a wrist against against the reaction forces encountered in pianism. You can tighten the wrist itself, or you can suspend it with minimal effort by lenghtening the arm at the shoulder end, to keep it taut from elsewhere. The first of those is very unhealthy while the second is near effortless. If you're totally certain that your technique is perfect, ignore my advice. However, if stiffness is a problem, more than anyone you ought make sure you're definitely doing the easier option- for your own sake. If you are predisposed to stiffness that only makes it more important to stop thinking it's strengthening something and find the low effort alternative to achieving alignement.

Anyway, if you're not willing to hear it then by all means stick to a quest to strengthen whatever muscle you think it is that will solve your problem.

[outin]

If you're totally certain that your technique is perfect, ignore my advice.

I certainly am not! My technique is very far away from perfect, quite inadequate, but that is another issue than what was discussed here. I am lucky to have a competent teacher who works the technique stuff with me, and while taking into account that I am not as able bodied and someone healthier, is not certainly letting me get away with any excuses. Your advice simply was not needed here, but thanks for offering it anyway

I actually agree with many of your ideas about technique, because my own experience is the same. But IMO you could try to express them in a more economic way, because your writings are often pretty hard to follow (even if one has the patience to read through it all). You might also benefit from accepting that there's seldom one solution that fits everyone because the starting point is different. That's why so many methods produce excellent results in some cases but also fail miserably in others.

[amelialw]

Learn to use distance and weight for example if you're sitting at the keyboard or a table just hold your hands up and drop them naturally whilst maintaining the shape; especially for females and smaller built ones at that this seems to be something essential to learn. I've found that it saves me from using alot of unnecessary movement and strength whilst playing a big program.

[nyiregyhazi]

I actually agree with many of your ideas about technique, because my own experience is the same. But IMO you could try to express them in a more economic way, because your writings are often pretty hard to follow (even if one has the patience to read through it all). You might also benefit from accepting that there's seldom one solution that fits everyone because the starting point is different. That's why so many methods produce excellent results in some cases but also fail miserably in others.

Of course. That's exactly what I'm striving to get around. They only work in some cases because they are not based on understanding of what is needed. If you appreciate what is objectively missing, it's much easier to choose the type of instructions that help a person from where they are as an individual. Objective analysis makes it easier to give the right things to the right people- but there are also some elements that everyone needs. I don't believe in a single approach to achieving results, but there are many objective requirements that can be identified- to make it easier to avoid getting it wrong. The wrist thing I mentioned here is a classic one. You can either tighten it or balance it by lenghtening the arm. There's no physically possible alternative. All good pianists need to be a capable of the latter- even those like lisitsa who often plays with a dangling hand.

I'm currently finishing a post about balance issues that I'm confident are absolutely universal. It's something that all good pianists have to master, in order to reach advanced levels without straining or clenching.

[outin]

I'm currently finishing a post about balance issues that I'm confident are absolutely universal. It's something that all good pianists have to master, in order to reach advanced levels without straining or clenching.

You may be right that the issues are universal. But people do not perceive their body, their movements and concepts in the same way. I doubt that no matter how much you try to explain, you could ever make an explanation that is universally understood the same way by all. That I think will always be a problem when trying to create a "method" that is delivered in writing.

BTW. The discussion between us would have been much more fruitful if you had ever bothered to ask a couple of questions: Whether I have already been working on the lengthening the arm thing with my teacher and what kind of exercises I do away from the piano. The discussion became a bit surreal really, equivalent to you insisting that there is something wrong with my car and me trying to explain to you that I really don't have a car, but my bicycle has a flat tire.

As someone who has had a long career in councelling/consulting/advicing people on various matters may I give some advice? You should always first ask a lot of questions before you start giving advice and you always have to do it in the concept system of the recipient, no matter how well thought and logical you feel your own is.

[nyiregyhazi]

You may be right that the issues are universal. But people do not perceive their body, their movements and concepts in the same way. I doubt that no matter how much you try to explain, you could ever make an explanation that is universally understood the same way by all. That I think will always be a problem when trying to create a "method" that is delivered in writing.

BTW. The discussion between us would have been much more fruitful if you had ever bothered to ask a couple of questions: Whether I have already been working on the lengthening the arm thing with my teacher and what kind of exercises I do away from the piano. The discussion became a bit surreal really, equivalent to you insisting that there is something wrong with my car and me trying to explain to you that I really don't have a car, but my bicycle has a flat tire.

As someone who has had a long career in councelling/consulting/advicing people on various matters may I give some advice? You should always first ask a lot of questions before you start giving advice and you always have to do it in the concept system of the recipient, no matter how well thought and logical you feel your own is.

The whole principle of my "method" is that I don't give simplistic "go and do x" advice. If I did,I'd have finished writing it altogether by now. However I give exercises that are designed to improve self perception and awareness of what makes release of efforts POSSIBLE. Understanding the concept is but 1%of achieving it . It's just a good way of not having the other 99% already screwed up beyond likelihood of repair from the start. Although I have a clear concept of issues that I am certain must objectively be happening beneath the surface of great techniques, I have deliberately avoided a simplistic description, as I know full well its not that simple to achieve it. If anything, and I feel I was initially too vague- because I was so cautious about steering well clear of the simplistic "do x" advice that many methods offer. Did you read my post on the fingers? It's primarily about self perception issues.

I advised as I did regarding the wrist, because it is the lone possible way to play advanced music without localised wrist tensions. There's no credible alternative to taking the workload off the wrist. If you already do this perfectly by lengthening, nothing is lost via a reminder. If you don't, appreciation of what simple lengthening makes possible might go a long way to relieving the efforts you spoke of. I don't wish to sound rude, but given how few pianists achieve a truly loose wrist (even at fairly advanced levels) I naturally presume that anyone who says they need to develop their muscles (which you repeated as your belief after I detailed an alternative which universally requires minimal strength) could learn something beneficial about the means of balancing a wrist with almost no muscular effort at all.

[outin]

No matter how much one excels in their endeavors and how well one understands their own path to achieve this, to be a good pedagogue requires understanding other people and their different starting points. Even though it's not possible to experience everything by yourself, it still often comes with experience and maturity, if one just keeps an open mind.

To me it just seems that you might still be a bit too much wrapped up in your own experiences. Maybe as a young (?) able bodied person you simply cannot imagine a situation where the problems in playing the piano come not from lacking the understanding of what one is supposed to do, but the actual physical disability to do so. The solutions need to go beyond just reading about piano technique.

For me the point of playing the piano is to produce good sound and to be able to do it fluently and with avoiding physical stress. All this has become possible (even if still far away from perfect, the results are already very easy to see and hear) only after taking up the enourmous task of getting the playing apparatus in shape (which is what I meant by strenghtening some muscles or learning to relax others where needed). It would never have happened without exercises away from the piano (and a few visits to a physiotherapist). I can still notice deteriation if I stop doing certain exercises for too long. I cannot change the fact that I often sit at a desk in front of a computer clicking my mouse for 8-10 hours every weekday my head too wrapped up in the work to bother to take breaks. That is very counterproductive to piano playing. I would imagine with the present lifestyle I am not the only one suffering from this type of problems.

I am not sure which post on fingers you refer to?

[nyiregyhazi]

No matter how much one excels in their endeavors and how well one understands their own path to achieve this, to be a good pedagogue requires understanding other people and their different starting points. Even though it's not possible to experience everything by yourself, it still often comes with experience and maturity, if one just keeps an open mind.

To me it just seems that you might still be a bit too much wrapped up in your own experiences. Maybe as a young (?) able bodied person you simply cannot imagine a situation where the problems in playing the piano come not from lacking the understanding of what one is supposed to do, but the actual physical disability to do so. The solutions need to go beyond just reading about piano technique.

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/fingers-core-of-piano-technique-part-i.html
https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/action-and-reaction-in-practise-part-i.html

Try these two posts. What do you feel in either of these posts would be purely subjective and unnecessary for some people? The way I see it, there are two categories of necessary exercises in piano technique. There are stripping exercises- which are about removing unnecessary efforts. These tend to be highly subjective- but there are ways to get these things done without telling lies about how the piano is really played. You just make it clear what is an exercise and what isn't- to get the same benefits of approaches that deal in mistruths, without infecting the person with the belief that you literally pass on what is done in the exercise (beyond aspects of the "feel") to real playing. There are also exercises which teach a fundamentally essential physical action, without which the most advanced things are unlikely to become possible. Notice how although both of the above are primarily in the second category, they also include an exercise that is purely about perceiving how to create a more neutral starting point in the hand and they are also strongly concerned with how to continue to avoid putting in unwanted efforts while performing the exercises based on adding things.


Obviously I can't make a personal diagnosis of anyone, but I have also written posts in a completely different category- which are aimed specifically at both stripping away unwanted efforts in the arms and at perceiving how to deploy the useful balancing efforts with as little effort as possible. I don't come at things from a narrow subjective view. By using objectivity about the elements that I can say for sure are universally needed, almost anyone ought to be able to gain something about their awareness and perception of what is going on. Only if they think they can do a quick two-minute job of briefly looking at a movement and then instantly trying to copy it (without bothering to explore the perception side of the exercises) would I be worried.

For me the point of playing the piano is to produce good sound and to be able to do it fluently and with avoiding physical stress. All this has become possible (even if still far away from perfect, the results are already very easy to see and hear) only after taking up the enourmous task of getting the playing apparatus in shape (which is what I meant by strenghtening some muscles or learning to relax others where needed).

I'm just curious about which muscles you feel are been made stronger and in what way you feel that strength is helping your piano technique. Are you talking about muscles in your wrists? I don't believe it's about strength. More likely, I'd say that you probably learn to let go of muscles and loosen them up by exercising. I agree entirely that exercise is important- but I think it's much more about loosening things up to be able to perform well- at least as far as the wrist is concerned. However, as I said earlier in the thread, I do believe that weakness of the hand itself is often an issue and that there is good reason to believe that strength plays a role there. I can see how your ligament issues would cause problems in your connection to the keyboard- which might in turn make it more difficult to relax your wrist. What I cannot see is why a single muscle that directly governs the wrist would need to be notably "strong" in a healthy technique. The difficulty is in learning to stop deploying those muscles, not in making them powerful enough. If exercise helps, I feel sure that it's because of what it loosens around there- not because of anything being stronger.

[outin]

I'm just curious about which muscles you feel are been made stronger and in what way you feel that strength is helping your piano technique. Are you talking about muscles in your wrists? I don't believe it's about strength. More likely, I'd say that you probably learn to let go of muscles and loosen them up by exercising. I agree entirely that exercise is important- but I think it's much more about loosening things up to be able to perform well- at least as far as the wrist is concerned. However, as I said earlier in the thread, I do believe that weakness of the hand itself is often an issue and that there is good reason to believe that strength plays a role there. I can see how your ligament issues would cause problems in your connection to the keyboard- which might in turn make it more difficult to relax your wrist. What I cannot see is why a single muscle that directly governs the wrist would need to be notably "strong" in a healthy technique. The difficulty is in learning to stop deploying those muscles, not in making them powerful enough. If exercise helps, I feel sure that it's because of what it loosens around there- not because of anything being stronger.

I you are truly interested in the specific problem with the wrist I was talking about, I can try to explain. Unfortunately I cannot remember the names of the muscle groups involved, but I'm sure you'll understand what I am talking about. You should be able to see that we are basically talking about the same things, but from a different perspective and in different terms.

Due to having such loose wrist joints I have never experienced any discomfort when my wrists drop down. So I have been used to keeping them at an extremely low position when typing or using the mouse and various other tasks. This has caused over the years the forearm muscles above to get cramped. I was not able to twist down my hands from the wrist at all without getting tingles/pain. When I started playing I could only play with low wrists. This did not present a physical problem because of my loose knuckle joints, they easily gave in to let the wrists be low. It felt natural and comfortable, but was of course inefficient for producing good results.

When my teacher started correcting this the first problem we encountered was that I also had completely frozen shoulders and an imbalance in the upper arm muscles, so keeping the hand/arm combination straight and extended wasn't physically possible.

When I talk about strengthening the muscles I do not mean to produce more muscle power. I wonder if you are aware, that muscles which are too tense often are so because they are too weak, not because they are too strong. To correct the wrist I had to make the forearm muscles stronger to be able to work and relax at will instead of just be cramped or completely unfunctional. To do so I needed to "find" these muscles, since I had absolutely no inside feeling whether they were cramped, relaxed or even where they were. So I needed exercises that had nothing to do with playing, but getting back this lost "feeling" of what is happening with the muscles. This is just one example, the same had to be done with all other "pivot parts" of the "lever" that the arm/hand combination is, all the way down to individual fingers. As you know the muscles involved are not necessarily at the pivot, so I assumed you would not misinterpret what I wrote about the wrist and muscle balance. To balance the wrist one needs to know how to correctly use many muscle groups in the forearm and also in the hand just as you describe above.

I didn't see any need to go into details since I can't see how writing long and technical posts about these issues would help someone with real problems. I think a good teacher is needed to spot what is wrong and help to guide one to the right path to correct it, but of course the work one has to do oneself. I would expect many to stop when they don't get results fast enough or the work simply is too much. Where these problems do not occur, I think a person can "naturally" learn to play efficiently, even without a teacher. They probably can gain from reading technical explanations for more understanding and that way get even better.