"inner pianist" now a teenager - need help

[loops]

Hi

I am adult piano student with maybe a strange problem, and maybe not.

I have been learning piano for 8 years, and I've hit a strange mental barrier.
I've always joked when I meet parents of the other pupils that if a child normally
starts at, say, 5 years old, then I'm really only an 8 or 10 or whatever years old
piano player. Anyway now it's eight years learning and so musically I'm 13 years old, a
beginning teenager.

I'm doing OK - I'm a great memorizer but I've always struggled to read and
play at the same time. This is just now starting to get better. I've
composed a few pieces and can play some gorgeous repertoire from memory
(Debussy, Chopin, Bach..).
I really like my teacher and there is still heaps to learn, given the rate at which
I can practice - I have a very full time job.

So the problem is that musically-psychologically I'm a teenager in the body of an adult. So no, I  don't want to learn rag time or pop pieces via chords (they don't have enough musical content for me), which is what I read teenagers like on the internet........

anyway, any advice welcome 

loops

[m1469]

I get it!  Study.  Focus, sort, organize, refine your ability to demonstrate your ideas and what you value.  I think maturity is less about how much a person does or doesn't know at any given time (or how long they have been endeavoring), and more about how a person copes with learning anew, while infusing new ideas with the old.  That may involve throwing things out or changing forms, and it takes maturity to be willing to do that if it is necessary to do!  I think in some way we always have this very full spectrum as individuals where we are something like how certain lakes exist; there are inlet streams of newness, there is this pool, and there are outlets, and we don't just manage one part of that, we manage the whole system, every day, over the course of our entire lives.

[j_menz]

So the problem is that musically-psychologically I'm a teenager in the body of an adult.

Nonsense. You are an adult. Give up the pseudo/pop psychology and use your maturity.

[ajspiano]

There is no such thing as an age relevant learning level for anything. Except maybe walking/talking..  but even in those cases there is variation. You just learn what you are presented with..   our society presents us with specific information at specific ages and as such we think certain things are the normal development, but really we have made them that way.

"musically-psychologically I'm a teenager"

No, - maybe in some areas you are at a similar musical development stage as many teenagers are.. but you are still an adult, you have had many experiences outside of music (just as a person in life) that impact your maturity and how you interact with music. You don't want to learn what you hear on the radio like many teenagers do because you have a certain level of maturity that means you (probably - lets hope so) no longer just want to be exactly like Kesha. You have you're own interests.

[m1469]

but you are still an adult, you have had many experiences outside of music (just as a person in life) that impact your maturity and how you interact with music.

No, that is not true as a blanket statement.  It's like saying that just because somebody is an adult, they should understand Spanish, without any prior knowledge of it, better than a child upon being dumped in Spain.  Yes, an adult will have a different way of digesting perhaps, and relate in adult forms, but it doesn't mean s/he can actually digest and utilize the language in a linguistically mature way, let alone in a way that will fully meet his/her personal needs.  

It is common knowledge that children, for example, can be more mature in some ways than in others, like intellect vs. emotion.  And, sometimes if this contrast is quite large, it can cause a much bigger problem.  I know a 2 year old who looks like a 5 year old, and one of the most important things his parents need to do is realize they can't actually expect him to act like a five year old just because he looks like one.  The same is true for people in large bodies where there may have been true stunting in needed development within certain areas.  I think it's important to realize that even though an adult might have adult persuasions, it doesn't mean they will linguistically be digesting music in a perfectly mature way, and if this gap between musical desires/needs and ability to maturely express it is big (or huge), it can be extremely problematic.  I think it's very important for people to realize this.  

[ajspiano]

No, that is not true as a blanket statement.  It's like saying that just because somebody is an adult, they should understand Spanish, without any prior knowledge of it, better than a child upon being dumped in Spain.  Yes, an adult will have a different way of digesting perhaps, and relate in adult forms, but it doesn't mean s/he can actually digest and utilize the language in a linguistically mature way, let alone in a way that will fully meet his/her personal needs. 

It is common knowledge that children, for example, can be more mature in some ways than in others, like intellect vs. emotion.  And, sometimes if this contrast is quite large, it can cause a much bigger problem.  I know a 2 year old who looks like a 5 year old, and one of the most important things his parents need to do is realize they can't actually expect him to act like a five year old just because he looks like one.  The same is true for people in large bodies where there may have been true stunting in needed development within certain areas.  I think it's important to realize that even though an adult might have adult persuasions, it doesn't mean they will linguistically be digesting music in a perfectly mature way, and if this gap between musical desires/needs and ability to maturely express it is big (or huge), it can be extremely problematic.  I think it's very important for people to realize this. 

That was kind of my point, there is certain kind of mental maturity that comes with age that is separate from learned tasks. It wasnt meant as an all encompassing blanket statement.

Generally, if you stuck a child in Spain they still have all that growing up to do, adults don't. The adult is not a teenager (or child) in relation to how it digests spanish.. its an adult, looking at a new task the way an adult does. And an adult can potentially have far more comprehension of spanish than a child in less time thanks to an adults raw comprehension of language/conversation as a concept, even if a child might pick up some basics a little quicker.

I certainly agree that some adults are not what might be termed adults inside (I know a few of them) but nothing about the OP suggested stunted development in terms of mental maturity.. just a later start on piano than some other people.

OP appears to be saying that he/she thinks that because a lot of teenagers like a certain music, and OP is at the same number of years development as a pianist as many teenagers then OP should want to learn the music teenagers do, which isn't true (or necessary) - no one has to learn ragtime or pop if they don't want to, be they a teenager or an adult.

[m1469]

That was kind of my point, there is certain kind of mental maturity that comes with age that is separate from learned tasks.

If you stuck a child in spain they still have all that growing up to do, adults don't. The adult is not a teenager (or child) in relation to how it digests spanish.. its an adult, looking at a new task the way an adult does.

Sorry, you actually glossed over my points altogether, so there's not really a conversation here, as far as I can see.  When I was "dumped" in German speaking regions by myself this past Summer, perhaps I could walk vs. a baby who can only crawl (or lay there doing nothing  ), but I promise I was pretty much reduced to completely childlike behaviors (completely survival methods of behaviors).  Between trains I literally followed like a child or a puppy, an older lady at first, and then later an older couple who were kind and "took me in" even though we couldn't communicate to each other, and I had a tricky time even getting something to eat at my destination, simply because I don't speak German.  Everything about me at that time was functioning as a child and it didn't feel that much different than when I was lost in acres of Citrus orchards, by myself at the age of 3 (I very clearly remember what I was thinking then) ... I actually have first-hand experiences to compare with and I actually know what it's like to be the type of musician that is being discussed in this thread, vs. just theoretically talking about it.

[ajspiano]

Sorry, you actually glossed over my points altogether, so there's not really a conversation here, as far as I can see.  When I was "dumped" in German speaking regions by myself this past Summer, perhaps I could walk vs. a child who can only crawl (or lay there doing nothing  ), but I promise I was pretty much reduced to completely childlike behaviors (completely survival methods of behaviors) and had a tricky time even getting something to eat, simply because I don't speak German.  It didn't feel that much different than when I was lost in acres of Citrus orchards, by myself at the age of 3 (I very clearly remember what I was thinking then) ... I actually have first-hand experiences to compare with and I actually know what it's like to be the type of musician that is being discussed in this thread, vs. just theoretically talking about it.

Maybe, but suppose you were left to fend for yourself for an entire month..  has the adult got a better chance than a 2 yr old? Being reduced to something child-like to get by doesn't make you psychologically a child. In that situation you're an adult that can't communicate freely with others..  you might feel just as helpless in the moment, but your coping mechanisms are significantly more developed. You would have made conscious choices that aided your objective, just followed someone because you were helpless.

Also, since I was at one staged "dumped" among competent jazz musicians and expected to improvise on the spot with no prior experience.. I do have something to relate to in regard to being unable to "speak" and feeling significantly overwhelmed by my inability to do something. But as a teenager at the time, I dealt with it, I made observations and figured out how to do something using processes that I'd learnt in other aspects of life.. things that a 3 yr old would not have been able to do, because their life experience is less - irrelevant of their music experience..

The fact that I don't agree with you doesn't mean I glossed over your points. I believe adults are WAY more capable in general than children are, in regard to pretty much everything.

[j_menz]

 I think it's important to realize that even though an adult might have adult persuasions, it doesn't mean they will linguistically be digesting music in a perfectly mature way, and if this gap between musical desires/needs and ability to maturely express it is big (or huge), it can be extremely problematic.  I think it's very important for people to realize this.  

If by that you mean that there is a learned component to musical appreciation/understanding then I certainly agree.  There is also the maturity we bring to that learning process.  An adult will not and cannot stop being an adult, with the life experiences they have had, and brings that to the learning process.  A teenager will have a different starting point and a child a different one to that. Indeed, we all have our own life history, experience and maturity which we bring to the table when we start to learn anything, be it language or musoc or whatever. It cannot be otherwise, and you cannot undo the past.

[m1469]

Maybe, but suppose you were left to fend for yourself for an entire month..  has the adult got a better chance than a 2 yr old? Being reduced to something child-like to get by doesn't make you psychologically a child. In that situation you're an adult that can't communicate freely with others..  you might feel just as helpless in the moment, but your coping mechanisms are significantly more developed.

One of the main points being how linguistic maturity can effect psychological maturity.  And, that just because somebody might be psychologically mature in one way does not mean they are psychologically mature in all ways, especially if there were a fundamental need, something innate to our very nature, which was never met through ages and ages of developmental phases.  Do you believe that a person who grew up to adulthood but never learned any language, never learned to read, never learned how to speak, would seriously be completely developed psychologically?  Could you seriously say they wouldn't mature psychologically if they suddenly learned how to speak, how to have words in their thoughts to help define them, how to have thoughts that express emotions/feelings and ideas, and how to communicate that to others?  Without that, without the language, we are reduced to being as babies and bursting out in screams and cries because we're hungry or because we're tired, or because our dipies need changing ... or because there is a musical need that isn't being met.

Also, since I was at one staged "dumped" among competent jazz musicians and expected to improvise on the spot with no prior experience.. I do have something to relate to in regard to being unable to "speak" and feeling significantly overwhelmed by my inability to do something. But as a teenager at the time, I dealt with it, I made observations and figured out how to do something using processes that I'd learnt in other aspects of life.. things that a 3 yr old would not have been able to do, because their life experience is less - irrelevant of their music experience.

While that might be similar to being dumped in a somewhat foreign Country (though still not quite the same), it is different than an entire, fundamental, innate, deep personal need for development in a very large but specific area (like learning how to speak) being completely undeveloped throughout one's entire life into adulthood.  The effect is displacement at the very least, similarly to a tree growing around an obstacle, but most likely that which is severely underdeveloped is causing problems for the entire system.  It's like the body missing blood; maybe blood is the problem but the whole body suffers.  I really didn't think this was rocket science...

Btw, when I was 3 and lost in an orchard, I mapped out a plan ... based on what experience?

[m1469]

If by that you mean that there is a learned component to musical appreciation/understanding then I certainly agree.  There is also the maturity we bring to that learning process.  An adult will not and cannot stop being an adult, with the life experiences they have had, and brings that to the learning process.  A teenager will have a different starting point and a child a different one to that. Indeed, we all have our own life history, experience and maturity which we bring to the table when we start to learn anything, be it language or musoc or whatever. It cannot be otherwise, and you cannot undo the past.

No.  Somebody who cannot speak and communicate is not a standard "adult" no matter what age they are, no matter what life experiences they have had, and that is the point.  Somebody who never learned to speak but goes through ALL of life that way, they see everything from that perspective.  Something was missing the entire time, and it is impossible under those circumstances for the maturation process to be complete WITHOUT the necessarily steps of learning being taken.

[j_menz]

No.  Somebody who cannot speak and communicate is not a standard "adult" no matter what age they are, no matter what life experiences they have had, and that is the point.  Somebody who never learned to speak but goes through ALL of life that way, they see everything from that perspective.  Something was missing the entire time, and it is impossible under those circumstances for the maturation process to be complete WITHOUT the necessarily steps of learning being taken.

There is no such thing as a "standard adult".  I believe I already said that.  But your example would still be an adult, not a child or a teenager.

And how have we got to such a rare and extreme example? If you are aiming at some sort of reductio ad absurdum argument, I am missing where you are going.

[ajspiano]

Its not rocket science..

Learning as a process of following others, imitating, experimenting, making big errors and then trying again is a process that children do intuitively, but its basically the same whether your an adult or a child..  its just that adults shut it off, they stop doing it. Having to reactivate it, and do it consciously - whether for music, or for a new spoken language does not make you a child.. it makes you an adult learning.

....

looking at the new posts since I hit reply, this is starting to be about defining "adult" to some standard..  for starters, OP can obviously communicate. Secondly, as far as I'm aware phsycology is different based on age, this is just mental development as we grow. It doesnt matter what you've learnt or not learnt you're still where ever it is that you are as far as that goes. You just think differently as you get older, go through puberty etc.

Obviously you're going to get adults who are far more capable that others thanks to their past, but the less capable are still adults in raw physcology..  which was my initial point.

[m1469]

So there is a "raw psychology" which in fact does define what is a "standard adult" or there is not ... which is it, exactly?

The point I am at now is that I simply don't believe you don't know what I am talking about and even agree with me.  Whether that is true or not, I can't make myself think otherwise, so I don't feel I can contribute any more to either of you, or if the interaction remains the same.  And, it is this point where I need to take myself out of the thread and do what I understand to be truly productive for my personal development, which is practicing and studying.

[ajspiano]

So there is a "raw psychology" which in fact does define what is a "standard adult" or there is not ... which is it, exactly?

There are 2 concepts in action..   what defines an adult, (or other stage of mental development) - and learning as a process..

They interact, how you mentally respond to learning is dependent on your mental maturity..  At no point did I suggest that OP should be immediately capable as a pianist because of mental maturity. Only that they must have a mental maturity and its not going to be "teenager" .. further to that, learning a concept such as music or language is separate from psychological maturity...   there is no such thing as "teenage level of musical development"

This was about OP recognising who they are as person and just going with it, not trying to corner themselves into a specific learning area based on what a teenager likes or wants to do musically..  because OP is not a teenager.

OP, you need to simply pick repertoire that does interest you musically. You don't have to learn pop songs to learn chords. Harmony exists in classical repertoire you can learn it there, if you reach a point where you would like to digest some pop music then so be it.. if you don't that's fine.. continue to enjoy bach/chopin/debussy/composition and whatever else takes your fancy. Or are you bored with that and want suggestions for something else, just not pop or ragtime?

..I never meant to be so argumentative with you m1469, I'm sorry if I've offended you in anyway. I'm sure this got far more out of hand than was at all necessary.

[m1469]

By all means, I invite you to feel free to respond with simple yes's or no's to the two questions below.

Do you believe that a person who grew up to adulthood but never learned any language, never learned to read, never learned how to speak, would seriously be completely developed psychologically?  Could you seriously say they wouldn't mature psychologically if they suddenly learned how to speak, how to have words in their thoughts to help define them, how to have thoughts that express emotions/feelings and ideas, and how to communicate that to others?

[j_menz]

By all means, I invite you to feel free to respond with simple yes's or no's to the two questions below.

No and no (reading the questions carefully).

Not sure where that takes us though.

[ajspiano]

By all means, I invite you to feel free to respond with simple yes's or no's to the two questions below.

Yes/No is not a sufficient answer.. its full of grey area.

Psychology is hardly a 3 stage development..  you don't become an adult and stop..  but we do know there are changes implemented as a result of our biology.

Do you believe that a person who grew up to adulthood but never learned any language, never learned to read, never learned how to speak, would seriously be completely developed psychologically?

No - they would not be what could be regarded as fully developed to a standard..  but they would be an adult.

Could you seriously say they wouldn't mature psychologically if they suddenly learned how to speak, how to have words in their thoughts to help define them, how to have thoughts that express emotions/feelings and ideas, and how to communicate that to others?

No - of course that aids development, and capacity to think..   but the inability to do so would not make you a child.







................................

Also, where is the example of this.. who didn't learn to communicate ideas ever? and since the vast majority of people did develop this skill..  why is that life experience not relevant to then doing something with the piano. Why is music so different to any other language?

Adults usually find it difficult to learn to express through music because they fear sounding bad, not because they are incapable in someway or that its that hard to learn. They are just intimidated by their inability and don't allow them selves to suck at it but make some noise.

I have no trouble getting a 5 yr old to hit a piano with their whole fist and figure out how to be loud. Adults don't want to do this, they want to comprehend first and get it right straight away. That's the major barrier, unwillingness to learn by experimenting.

If they are willing to be bad at it and observe themselves, their life experience will teach them far more rapidly how to get good at something than a child will. That's not just about music, it happens in everything.. if adults were willing to be seen falling over they'd learn to walk quicker.

Thats what happened to you in germany - you were forced to fall over, be terrible at german (like a child first learning to speak). It doesnt make you a child, its just learning.

[j_menz]

if adults were willing to be seen falling over they'd learn to walk quicker.

Does "quicker" include hospitalisations? 

[ajspiano]

Does "quicker" include hospitalisations? 

Its a metaphor you douche.

[j_menz]

Its a metaphor you douche.

The rudeness I can let pass, but the missing apostrope: Unforgiveable!

 

EDIT: I know it's apostrophe. My keyboard hates me! 

[ajspiano]

The rudeness I can let pass, but the missing apostrope: Unforgiveable!

 

This is you.

[j_menz]

This is you.

The likeness is uncanny, though I haven't worn that tie for some time.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

The rudeness I can let pass, but the missing apostrope: Unforgiveable!

 

I am so confused with the conversation you two guys just had.

Could I be...


Wrong?  

[m1469]

One of the big differences between me, somebody who can actually relate to that feeling of being pianistically underdeveloped, and other posters who merely claim to understand the psychology and what it's like to teach adults in this situation (but don't have any idea about what it's actually like), is that I don't find anything within it that is something to joke about, treat as insignificant in any way, shape or form, nor make light of in any way - especially not in a thread that is presumably sincere.

I understand that there may be something different about my personal experience growing up without formal lessons and training, vs. many other adults who start learning as an adult.  I could simply comprehend what I felt the OP was trying to say regarding feeling like his musical development was only developed so far.  My point was always that it is one thing to relate to life and even to music as an adult, it is another to be capable of expressing that relationship through one's playing, and I think that is important for a teacher to understand since that gap can create its own problem.  I don't think it's psychologically helpful to simply state to them they are an adult and that they therefore do and should relate to music as an adult vs. a teenager.  

Personally, I have needed teachers to understand this about me on some level, even if they can't fundamentally or personally relate.  And there are things about it, at least in my own case, that feel inexplicably terrible and which, as I have stated before on this forum, have created for me quite large and pronounced problems (which I see now could have been avoided),  beyond me feeling shy about playing or pounding my fists on the piano in front of teachers I deeply admire.  In my case, I can feel myself actually developing as a person as I develop as a pianist, as a singer, and as a musician (but especially as a pianist).  There is nobody who can change that fact, it's simply part of who I am.  

I certainly don't expect it to hold me back forever, I am certainly extremely grateful for my very amazing teachers (and admittedly for this forum), but there is no way I could skip any steps and expect to get the same result as somebody who did not skip steps.  And that's the real point.  Personally I wouldn't want to be treated as though I could skip steps which in doing so creates or nurtures gaps, simply because I'm an adult and have developed in certain areas.  There is no question I have a lot more developing to do as a musician/pianist, and I don't want to be robbed of that because somebody is deceived by my adultyness.  I assume other adults who might be passionate about their musical endeavors might feel similarly ... but I recognize I am probably even some steps beyond being merely passionate about it.

If that is helpful for somebody, I am truly happy.  If it is not then it's not.  All the same, I've got steps to take and I seek ways to take them.

[j_menz]

My point was always that it is one thing to relate to life and even to music as an adult, it is another to be capable of expressing that relationship through one's playing, and I think that is important for a teacher to understand since that gap can create its own problem.  I don't think it's psychologically helpful to simply state to them they are an adult and that they therefore do and should relate to music as an adult vs. a teenager.  

That "gap" is always there, and bridging it the chief challenge of music making.  That said, the OP is an adult, and can only relate to music as an adult; they cannot relate as a teenager as they are no longer one.

[j_menz]

I am so confused with the conversation you two guys just had.

Could I be...


Wrong?  

For the squillionth and first time, yes!

[m1469]

That "gap" is always there, and bridging it the chief challenge of music making.  That said, the OP is an adult, and can only relate to music as an adult; they cannot relate as a teenager as they are no longer one.

If that is supposed to be psychologically correct and helpful, why don't I find myself suddenly understanding something better about myself as a result of reading it?

[perprocrastinate]

This is you.

Funniest thing I've seen in a while.

I'd attempt to participate in this discussion, but I just got done studying, and I'm too damn tired!

[j_menz]

If that is supposed to be psychologically correct and helpful, why don't I find myself suddenly understanding something better about myself as a result of reading it?

Allow me to expand, then.  We all start our piano journey from different places; at different ages, with different abilities, experiences and interests. We cannot start anywhere else than where we are at that point.  That means everyones journey will be different, and though there are some commonalities, there is no single end point; no Mecca, no enlightenment, no light bulb moment when we have "arrived". Everyon'es destination will be different. And this is a good thing.

Music making is about taking our self and expressing it; through composition, improvisation or by aspiarating another's work with our own spirit.  We cannot take another persons self to do this, and so we cannot produce another person's music.

In your case, your own journey is what you bring to the music making table; it is what you have to give, through music, as your gift.

[ajspiano]

Firstly, I realise that some of the posts from me in this thread may have come across a little attacking. I apologise for that. I don't mean to make light of the OP's situation.

...

somebody who can actually relate to that feeling of being pianistically underdeveloped

If you're suggesting that I'm not that you're being very bold. My 'lesson' experience gave me note reading, some basic theory, which was great - however, EVERYTHING, relating to interpretation, technical skills, how to learn effectively, ear skills...  that's on me. Its self taught. And I ran into plenty of obstacles, and become grossly frustrated by the lack of help I was receiving.

Beyond when I gave up on taking regular lessons myself - because it was pointless - I've never taken more than a once off lesson and only a handful of times over the last 10 years. I've never been fortunate enough to run into a decent teacher.. However, I was very passionate about music (not just the piano) and did pretty much nothing else. I did the hard yards and figured it out... or at least I have to whatever degree of competence I currently have.

My teachers are the books, the music itself, the performing musicians I've worked with, and my students (the latter being easily the most significant).

I am certainly extremely grateful for my very amazing teachers

You are very lucky to have had them..  I can't fathom how much better off I'd be if I'd run into marik personally. I'm extraordinarily jealous of you for that.

...........

I didn't ever suggest that OP should relate to music a specific way because of age, or adulthood.. its the exact opposite. The question is worded to suggest that the OP is trying to relate to music like a "teenager" because OP has been learning for the same amount of time as many pianists have when they are becoming teenagers..  but your relationship with music is one relating to expression of emotion and adult emotion is more complex and deeper than that of a teenager (atleast it usually is). Or even beyond that, its just your own regardless of your age...  thats what the OP needs to do..  stop caring about where they are at and what they should do..  just be where they are at and do what they feel connected to.

[m1469]

Allow me to expand, then.  We all start our piano journey from different places; at different ages, with different abilities, experiences and interests. We cannot start anywhere else than where we are at that point.

OK, I can start to see something here.  My perception, though it may be wrong, is that when you or others say something like this it is coming from a place of basically deciding one day (or having it decided for you) at some distant point in your past, that you would like lessons, that you are enjoying lessons, and that you would enjoy continuing.  I am simply saying this is still different than this desire to play, this desire for speaking this language being unattended to for years and so burning and digging a very deep hole in your life, permeating throughout everything you do and think, and that being the place from which you are starting your journey as an adult.  It is very different footing from which to start.  In one way or another, that hole must be dealt with.  

there is no single end point; no Mecca, no enlightenment, no light bulb moment when we have "arrived". Everyon'es destination will be different. And this is a good thing.

I am not arguing this and alluded to this in my very first post in this thread.

[ajspiano]

I am simply saying this is still different than this desire to play, this desire for speaking this language being unattended to for years and so burning and digging a very deep hole in your life, permeating throughout everything you do and think, and that being the place from which you are starting your journey.

That is exactly my experience, despite lessons..  and is precisely what landed me among a bunch of competent jazz performers. Lessons were not helping, to this day despite 10 years of lessons I have no clue whether my then teacher knew anything about expressing music as a language rather than just hitting the right keys.

If she did she never shared it with me.

[j_menz]

OK, I can start to see something here.  My perception, though it may be wrong, is that when you or others say something like this it is coming from a place of basically deciding one day (or having it decided for you) at some distant point in your past, that you would like lessons, that you are enjoying lessons, and that you would enjoy continuing.  I am simply saying this is still different than this desire to play, this desire for speaking this language being unattended to for years and so burning and digging a very deep hole in your life, permeating throughout everything you do and think, and that being the place from which you are starting your journey as an adult.  It is very different footing from which to start.  In one way or another, that hole must be dealt with.  

My starting point, and my journey since then is rather different than your perception. But it is also different from yours. That burning, that deep hole in your life does have to be dealt with, but it is also where you start, and what you bring to your music. It can only be filled by giving it expression in your playing.

[m1469]

You are very lucky to have them..  I can't fathom how much better off I'd be if I'd run into marik personally. I'm extraordinarily jealous of you for that.

I am profoundly grateful for Marik.  He has been and is absolutely irreplaceable in my life, as well as my in-state teacher for whom I am also profoundly grateful and who is irreplaceable in my life.  Not meaning to lock them in, it's just been a very meaningful and needed experience for me with each.

That is exactly my experience, despite lessons..  and is precisely what landed me among a bunch of competent jazz performers. Lessons were not helping, to this day despite 10 years of lessons I have no clue whether my then teacher knew anything about expressing music as a language rather than just hitting the right keys.

If she did she never shared it with me.

OK, thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts.  I do forget sometimes, and I realize that I have once again forgotten, that I assume certain things.   I do sometimes assume that should I have had lessons growing up that this hole and gap in my life wouldn't have been there, but it's truly possible that not only is that not necessarily true, but it could've even been worse in some ways ... I truly forget this.  I tend to think back to those years and just insert my current teachers into my former life and think as though other people had teachers like that, or those types of rapports with their teachers, throughout their entire development.  I can see how that is simply not necessarily true, and that if it's at least partly about meeting the right teacher at the right time, that just wasn't meant to be in my younger years as I feel I can see clearly it was meant to be later.

I do see it's not all about my teachers (or about the teachers), I do see I have my own thinking, studying, practicing, and work to do.  I get that this is necessary, too.  I don't know exactly what to think of all of those years that I already spent on my own ... it wasn't studying, and I suppose that's part of what I don't like about it from this vantage point, but there was still something important happening for me then which I just don't know how to categorize.

[ajspiano]

I suspect there is an enormous amount of frustration for both you and I (and others ofcourse) - in that having traveled whatever separate paths we have both ultimately crossed certain boundaries relating to the development of musical expression. And, we have become teachers and begun to attempt to help others do the same thing...   

I know that for me that process, teaching, is what made me painfully aware of the shortcomings in my own early development.

I don't consider my lessons to have been wasteful, but my experience as a teacher tells me where they could have been a long way better than they were.

EDIT:
..the thing is, that there is an emotional experience tied in with our upbringing, it can't be ignored. Whether or not I had a great teacher, she was a strong influence in my life as a child, I saw her every week for nearly 10 years... and during that time I was emotionally maturing, learning who I was as a person. She had an impact on me in that time that stretches beyond musical learning.. she had morals/values that were imparted to me, she had a role in my perception of self and as a part of the world.

The struggles I experienced learning music are an integral but of who I am today..  especially as a teacher...  because having experienced certain difficulties and not received help..  that makes me more aware of ensuring my own students difficulties don't go unnoticed, and that I attend to them and figure them out.. and explain them properly. It's what made me become a teacher that "guides" and helps a student explore rather than who uses a "this is how its done, no questions" approach.

[mikeowski]

I don't know what you really mean because you didn't pose a question, you just stated that you think that your musicality power-level is 13, which doesn't really say anything about you. It merely means that you played the piano for 8 years. And obviously how you spent those 8 years can make a huge difference, and life experience and age give you a whole different, more analytical view and, if you've decided playing piano by yourself, more motivation, because you can identify with it better, than when you get forced to do it because someone else thinks it might be good for you. So of course. Of course you are a competely different person than a 13 year old who played the piano for 8 years.
To me it seems you just regret having started too late - which is a sentiment I share -, but the way you present it with an equation "x + y = z, where x = piano age-coefficient = 5, y = number of years playing piano, z = musicality power-level" is only making things complicated.
The topic could just be named "How can I improve my musicality?" because, and here is my point: you are who you are and the only thing you can change is the future, not the past. So as someone who might be in a similar situation to yours, I advise you to forget about your imaginary power-level and try to work on your musicality the best you can. As simple as that.

[m1469]

That burning, that deep hole in your life does have to be dealt with, but it is also where you start, and what you bring to your music. It can only be filled by giving it expression in your playing.

Actually, I can comprehend this on a fundamental principle and by my own reasoning.  My own reasoning is that I fundamentally needed that expression all along, and that lacking it is what created this hole.  So I see that I need this expression right where that place is of having needed it all along.  It's not a terribly pleasant situation, but lately I seem to be making some rather large strides with it.  Ultimately, I'd like for it to not be unpleasant, but rather something which adds to my playing and expression, and I can see there's only one way for that to happen.

[loops]

wow - what a wonderful discussion, better than I could have dreamed of, with many ideas to ponder.

Thank you m1469 for defending me - you do understand.

In reply to some points raised:
I decided, consciously, to learn like a child because it is much faster. This means no expectations, just delight in it, just have a go at whatever I'm being challenged with. As an older adult I carry within me the experiences of being a child and a teenager and a younger adult. The various emotional states are indelibly there, to use (or to avoid!!) to improve my life and to enjoy it.

In reply to mikeowski, and the "power level of 13". I don't worry about my power level because there is no point as I'm not competing with anyone.  However, telling people you are "only 8 or 10 or whatever" does protect you from scorn when it is obvious you are not a professional player.

I think the ideas about the level of language are really interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way.
I suppose it is the emotional problem - the ability to express yourself problem, as well as, what am I expressing problem, in this language of piano music. My teacher teaches me classical music and gives feedback on my compositions but he himself is an improvisor of new music (not really jazz, or classical, but with "prepared piano" and such like). But what is my idiom or musical path? This is a really hard question. It is not far from asking, who will I be when I grow up (musically)?

Well, I've been here before with other issues e.g. with my career, and that teenage frustration and identity crisis is a very strong memory. So maybe my feelings of frustration are just plugging into these memories making me feel like a moody teenager.

[mikeowski]

The frustration of not being able to do what we want is not exclusive to late starters.
To your problem I can only say: "Too bad you didn't start earlier. You would be better if you had. But that chance is gone. Deal with it."
You are at the level you are at (not power-level!), and just make the best you can out of your situation, that is what you can do and change, not the fact that you didn't start at age 5.
Also, predicting the future of how you will be in let's just say 5 years is impossible. You will see that in 5 years.
Now I don't mean that in an offensive way or anything, it's just the conclusion I arrived at when thinking about this problem I share with you (altough my power-level is only 7 yet so it's not completely the same).

[loops]

The frustration of not being able to do what we want is not exclusive to late starters.

True

To your problem I can only say: "Too bad you didn't start earlier. You would be better if you had. But that chance is gone. Deal with it."

That's not a valid understanding of my problem, and not particularly kind. I don't wish I had started earlier to be a better player now. If I had done that I would have missed out on other things.

I care, as m1469 seems to understand, about expressing myself and what am I expressing - it's about the next important step in my musical development, and has to do with what is within and matching what must be expressed to a musical expression.

And yes, where I am in 5 years will be revealed in 5 years. But hopefully it won't be 5 years on the wrong path. I guess that is my worry.

[mikeowski]

That's not a valid understanding of my problem, and not particularly kind. I don't wish I had started earlier to be a better player now. If I had done that I would have missed out on other things.

I care, as m1469 seems to understand, about expressing myself and what am I expressing - it's about the next important step in my musical development, and has to do with what is within and matching what must be expressed to a musical expression.

And yes, where I am in 5 years will be revealed in 5 years. But hopefully it won't be 5 years on the wrong path. I guess that is my worry.

I didn't try to be kind nor offensive at all, just tell you my own solution to what I thought was your problem. Seems like I mistook your problem for my own though.
Ok I get it now. And m1469 said everything that's relevant in her first post, so I second that and I'm outta here!

[keypeg]

My frustration, when reading this thread, is that when we write about the internal part of our own learning, it is very hard to bring across what we mean.  Others assume too readily that they understand what is meant, and then respond to what they think was said.  The result is a lot of people missing each other, and even arguing when in fact they may be saying the same thing.

I agree that to learn to play an instrument (or learn a language) we must function like children, and we have that capacity because we were once children.  It is true that we can grasp things intellectually, and we can grasp concepts quickly in a way that a child cannot.  It is also true to that we have developed strategies for solving problems.  Both of these things can be a hindrance as much or maybe even more than they can be helpful.

Taking one thing at a time: A concept in music must not only be understood intellectually - it must be internalized.  You don't just read about chords resolving, you have to feel and hear it.  You don't just memorize what the names of the notes are on the keyboard and in notation - it must become part of your hands and ears.  These things are learned best through direct experience, and if your brain is "explaining" things to you along the way, it will create a barrier or filter.  You'll get it, but not as completely.

2. Strategies for solving problems: A good teacher can lead a student to reaching things in music through pathways that we may not think of, and these pathways may bring us into "ways" that would be closed to us.  To solve problems along our habitual path, in a field which is different, and which involves both the body and the senses, is not always a good idea.  The child is led, and hovers between natural instinct and doing the simple things he is asked to try. 

If I were to start a new instrument tomorrow, I would not want a teacher who "treats me like an adult" in the sense of giving lots of abstract, intellectual explanations, and who aimed to let me produce pieces of music that adults typically love.  I need the same physical experiences that a child has, because understanding goes from the physical and concrete to the abstract.  There will be differences because I can be attentive for longer periods of time, and I can also understand the concept side of it.  But not to the detriment of direct experience which everyone has to go through.  Being "playful" is also a huge advantage.

The problem in all of this is that many adults do not want to work this way, so if you do, you have to let your teacher know.  They lose too many other students who want it the other way around.

[keypeg]

I have been learning piano for 8 years, and I've hit a strange mental barrier.
I've always joked when I meet parents of the other pupils that if a child normally
starts at, say, 5 years old, then I'm really only an 8 or 10 or whatever years old
piano player. Anyway now it's eight years learning and so musically I'm 13 years old, a
beginning teenager.

I'm doing OK - I'm a great memorizer but I've always struggled to read and
play at the same time. This is just now starting to get better. I've
composed a few pieces and can play some gorgeous repertoire from memory
(Debussy, Chopin, Bach..).
I really like my teacher and there is still heaps to learn, given the rate at which
I can practice - I have a very full time job.

So the problem is that musically-psychologically I'm a teenager in the body of an adult. So no, I  don't want to learn rag time or pop pieces via chords (they don't have enough musical content for me), which is what I read teenagers like on the internet........

Loops, I think I understand the gist of what you are saying.  Maybe you'll be able to tell through my last post whether that is so.  But then I am lost in the teenager analogy, and also what your problem actually is.

Free associating: Teens are between adulthood and childhood.  They become self-aware, see their flaws for the first time (or "flaws"), begin to search for their own identity or way of doing things.  They are in between everywhere.  Is this going in the right direction?

Are there concrete things you are after in music?

In regards to teen tastes, don't go by the Internet.  They are not as shallow as the commercial world likes to make out (it sells more products). 

[loops]

If I were to start a new instrument tomorrow, I would not want a teacher who "treats me like an adult" in the sense of giving lots of abstract, intellectual explanations, and who aimed to let me produce pieces of music that adults typically love.  I need the same physical experiences that a child has, because understanding goes from the physical and concrete to the abstract.  There will be differences because I can be attentive for longer periods of time, and I can also understand the concept side of it.  But not to the detriment of direct experience which everyone has to go through.  Being "playful" is also a huge advantage.

yes, indeed, absolutely right, this what I mean by being "a child", and my teacher went along with it.  I am, in fact,  hugely intellectual in my day job, so I need the music to provide an emotional balance to all that technical stuff. And I love the physical experience of just playing.

Free associating: Teens are between adulthood and childhood.  They become self-aware, see their flaws for the first time (or "flaws"), begin to search for their own identity or way of doing things.  They are in between everywhere.  Is this going in the right direction?

yes this is absolutely right. I'm also not sure of the problem -- and I remember that feeling as a teenager - I didn't have the concepts to say what was wrong. I just survived it and somehow bumbled along into my career and my life right now.

As for wanting concrete things, I'm not sure. So far two of my pieces have been performed and both times was a very strong experience. So far I lack the temperament to perform, but this will hopefully improve. The possibilities seem endless even as an amateur.

Thanks everyone for taking my problem seriously, I really appreciate it.

[ajspiano]

yes, indeed, absolutely right, this what I mean by being "a child", and my teacher went along with it.  I am, in fact,  hugely intellectual in my day job, so I need the music to provide an emotional balance to all that technical stuff. And I love the physical experience of just playing.

Its interesting to hear all the different perspectives..  I think I also understood that experience and how people can feel as though they are being childish for behaving in that way, but I don't think of it as being at all child-like. As I said before, I just see it as the learning process - I certainly end up in certain situations where I give thorough explanations, sometimes quite technical ones (depends on the student)..   but at the same time, I actively encourage and show all students how to learn by playing, exploring and expanding their capabilities through simply being involved with the piano.. not just trying to comprehend a verbal/written/visual instructions.

I don't think technical instruction has much value without it being accompanied by exploration of sound and physical feel (done by playing and listening).. 

I can see how the process of doing that could make an adult feel frustrated and associate those emotions to childhood or teenage years since thats when we do most of our learning..   but I still don't really like the idea of explaining that way - I see it as reactivating a type of learning, and just experiencing learning, irrelevant of age.

[gleeok]

So the problem is that musically-psychologically I'm a teenager in the body of an adult. So no, I  don't want to learn rag time or pop pieces via chords (they don't have enough musical content for me), which is what I read teenagers like on the internet........

Liking pop and rag, yes. Playing pop and rag, unfortunately not : (.

For some reason I can't keep going and they seem much harder than classical pieces, not necessarily harder in the playing itself, but harder to keep interest always high. Maybe thats the case of "musical content" you mentioned, I guess, because I just can't keep working on them for several weeks like I do with classical pieces.

Its sad, because besides the lack of musical content, like extremely uninteresting and boring left hand parts, when everything is put together the piece does sound good...

I suppose you feel the same?

[keypeg]

Here's the part that has me confused:

I can see how the process of doing that could make an adult feel frustrated and associate those emotions to childhood or teenage years since thats when we do most of our learning..   but I still don't really like the idea of explaining that way - I see it as reactivating a type of learning, and just experiencing learning, irrelevant of age.

Why would a pleasant experience by frustrating?  There is something that I'm not understanding.

[ajspiano]

Here's the part that has me confused:Why would a pleasant experience by frustrating?  There is something that I'm not understanding.

Some people just want to be able to do something immediately, bypass the learning and go straight to fluent playing. They are not in it for the journey..  they realise that can't happen, and are willing to do the practice to learn...  but the delay is frustrating, even if the process is an interesting and fun experience.

Alternatively, for someone who is musically (from a mental perspective) developed but not technically developed - they may have all sorts of great music bouncing around in their head, emotions to express musically..  but they can't because they don't have the technical competence or general familiarization with the physical side of their instrument. That's something I'm well aware of..  many times I've written songs that take the vocal melody well above my vocal range. The music is there, but I just cant do it - which is pretty annoying.

^yet, that experience doesn't make writing those songs unpleasant in general.

........

learning process is also something that can result in all sort of crazy emotions for pretty much anyone. It depends on your personality and upbringing. Some people feel particular embarrassed by their inability so find it uncomfortable to make errors..  This is rampant in piano teaching, how often do we see a question pop up on the forum about how a student feels awkward or uncomfortable making errors in front of their teacher?

[keypeg]

Yes, I do understand that a lot of people feel that way.    It was because you were quoting / responding to the OP who seemed to enjoy this way of learning that I wasn't sure.  Now I get what you're saying.