Beethoven's Pathétique mvt. 1 - best way to avoud left-hand fatigue?

[thesixthsensemusic]

Hi there, I've been playing this wonderful piece and even though I manage to get through it in the right tempo, the rapid left-hand octaves are very much a cause of fatigue, I struggle to get through them and only manage doing so with MUCH effort. I can manage the entire sonata, but imagine myself doing a recital (even if it is for a bunch of friends and family members) and having to play over an hour including physically demanding pieces, and I'm not sure if that would work... are there any specific details I have to take note of in regard to wrist movement, arm movement, or the likes?

Or maybe, could it be a lack of stamina for these sorts of movements? I have been playing the piano after an 8-year hiatus only since January this year... meaning I just have to wait and practice hours a day for an extended period of time?

Something you might wonder which I am quite sure is NOT causing this is my seating position, I feel comfortable playing and have my lower arms roughly horizontal and the elbows slightly bent over 90% when playing the middle of the keyboard as I've always thought is generally advised, but still, any suggestions including in that field are welcome!

[vsrinivasa]

Try practicing the tremolos slowly and carefully until you can build up speed and stamina. Take frequent breaks if you feel too much fatigue amd work on another part of the sonata. That's all I can tell you based on how I learned the piece. Hopefully this helps.

[cmg]

Practicing slowly is no help.  Tremolos need rotational technique.  If you don't know what that is, then you need to ask your teacher.  It can't be described very well, but it can easily be demonstrated.  It's one of the core technical achievements.  If you don't master it, you won't be able to truly master the piano.  Talk to your teacher.  Now.  If your teacher reacts cluelessly, find a real teacher.  Seriously.   

[rachmaninoff_forever]

This is what I do.

Try playing on the very edge of the keys, and try to keep your fingertips as close to the piano as possible.  I actually try to make sure I'm touching the keys the whole time because minimal effort is require to make the sound.

Maybe you're getting too much air with the tremolos.

Also when you use the pedal, you can kind of cheat the tremolos because the pedal make it all muddy.

[j_menz]

Also when you use the pedal, you can kind of cheat the tremolos because the pedal make it all muddy.

Which will set you up nicely to fail to be able to play similar but faster and perfectly clear octave tremelos in other pieces. 

OP - sit back a bit, raise your elbow out slightly and follow the first bit of r_f's advice. Find a balance between forearm, wrist and hand rotation that works for you and use your fingers a bit as well.

[dcstudio]

This is what I do.

Try playing on the very edge of the keys, and try to keep your fingertips as close to the piano as possible.  I actually try to make sure I'm touching the keys the whole time because minimal effort is require to make the sound.

Maybe you're getting too much air with the tremolos.

Also when you use the pedal, you can kind of cheat the tremolos because the pedal make it all muddy.

excellant advice!!  ...if it hurts -- there is a better way to play it...   and it does take only minimal effort to nail those trems...even though it doesn't sound like it...

[thesixthsensemusic]

Thanks j_menz, this does seem to make a difference even though I tried it only twice now.

Regarding the other comment about asking stuff to my teacher, I can't because since my break from playing I've re-learned everything myself just by studying hard, listening to many different recordings of the pieces I play, and watching fingering carefully. Maybe it would be a good idea to start following lessons again.

[sucom]

I agree that you need a rotational movement to pull these tremelos off.  If your wrist is straight and you are trying to achieve the tremelo with your fingers alone then you will feel fatigue.  You need to loosen your wrist and allow it to rotate!

Gradually building up general forearm, wrist and finger strength will also help eventually.  One other thing that might help is to make sure you really loosen up your wrist whenever you have the opportunity.  To do this, imagine a piece of string tied around your wrist, pulling up your wrist without any forearm movement involved. As your wrist moves upwards, allow your hands and fingers to drop below your wrist, relieving any stress in them.  This movement is similar to the drop and roll technique when playing slurs.  This is much easier to demonstrate than it is to put into words! 

[brogers70]

Others have said similar things. Rest your hands on the keys and play the notes with the minimal possible forearm rotation. Practice just doing the first octave c's for as long as you can, relaxing as much as possible. When it starts to feel tense or to hurt, stop and immediately pay close attention to what muscles feel painful or tense. Then relax those muscles and keep going. Eventually, I believe you'll get to the point that you are relaxing all the muscles you don't need. From then on, it shouldn't hurt.

When you first learn how to use chopsticks your fingers may cramp up within minutes. When you get better at it, it's not because you developed strength and stamina, but because you learned how to relax all the muscles you don't need.

[johnannsb]

relax!!!
Imagine you are opening a door (one with a round doorknob which turns). Thats the movement you want + slow practice, etc

[mikemiester]

Here's my solution.

Rotational technique is essential. So is allowing your arm/hand to move from the one position to the other, and back again. If you watch carefully, you're probably extending your fingers into the position you want, and then hammering away at the tremolo. Instead, allow the pinky to come up with the thumb as it plays, and allow the thumb to go down with the pinky when it's time for it to play. Practice this very slowly, and gradually increase speed. Obviously, it isn't possible to trans-locate at high speeds, but practicing it this way should get rid of the rigid form I expect you're putting your hand into while playing.

 

[mikemiester]

You need to loosen your wrist and allow it to rotate!

You have the right idea, but the way said it could be confusing. The wrist must be allowed to rotate, but it is NOT what you want to think of as the "initiator" of the movement. The wrists involvement is merely incidental. The back of the forearm / elbow is where you want to put your attention on in terms of freeing it up. Put your other hand on the back of your forearm, close your eyes, and try to imagine the movement starting from there. The unity of the forearm/hand must be preserved for a fluid and natural technique. Make sure your whole arm/hand is moving together, and there is no separation from arm to hand.

[j_menz]

You have the right idea, but the way said it could be confusing. The wrist must be allowed to rotate, but it is NOT what you want to think of as the "initiator" of the movement. The wrists involvement is merely incidental. The back of the forearm / elbow is where you want to put your attention on in terms of freeing it up. Put your other hand on the back of your forearm, close your eyes, and try to imagine the movement starting from there. The unity of the forearm/hand must be preserved for a fluid and natural technique. Make sure your whole arm/hand is moving together, and there is no separation from arm to hand.

Odd that you should base your rotational movement on the one joint that doesn't rotate.

[mikemiester]

Odd that you should base your rotational movement on the one joint that doesn't rotate.

Odd or not, it works. The elbow doesn't rotate at all obviously, it's the forearm that does, and by basing the movement from the back of the forearm, you ensure that the movement encompasses the whole arm instead of just being lead around by the wrist. How we perceive our own movements and where we perceive them originating from is a very tricky and very important business.

[j_menz]

Odd or not, it works. The elbow doesn't rotate at all obviously, it's the forearm that does, and by basing the movement from the back of the forearm, you ensure that the movement encompasses the whole arm instead of just being lead around by the wrist. How we perceive our own movements and where we perceive them originating from is a very tricky and very important business.

Yes, I see - that makes excellent sense.

[nyiregyhazi]

You have the right idea, but the way said it could be confusing. The wrist must be allowed to rotate, but it is NOT what you want to think of as the "initiator" of the movement. The wrists involvement is merely incidental. The back of the forearm / elbow is where you want to put your attention on in terms of freeing it up. Put your other hand on the back of your forearm, close your eyes, and try to imagine the movement starting from there. The unity of the forearm/hand must be preserved for a fluid and natural technique. Make sure your whole arm/hand is moving together, and there is no separation from arm to hand.

What about the thumb and fifth finger? If these do not initiate the movement (aided by some forearm rotation which only aids and does not replace hand action) the hand is forced to stiffen like crazy. I spent years trying in vain to understand what people were on about with rotation, all to no avail. My tremolos were pathetic. Finally, I can do the ones in the Liszt arrangement of Wagner's Liebestod with speed and ease- with only smallish amount of rotatation that are not close to enough to account for the movement of the keys. Only getting the fingers moving eliminated the need to brace things. Rotation and finger movement need to sometimes be worked on individually and sometimes combined. Ultimately, I use vastly more finger movement than rotation to produce speed and sound. Rotation is just what makes sure I'm not locked into position- not a literal instigator of the primary energy behind each key depression.

Whatever all the standard methods might claim, without notable finger movement, rotation is both slow and laboured and can cause considerable stiffness in the hand. While rotation is something you cannot afford to eliminate, neither is it something that can credibly account for anything more than a particular component of what is required to eliminate bracing.

[j_menz]

What about the thumb and fifth finger? If these do not initiate the movement (aided by some forearm rotation which only aids and does not replace hand action) the hand is forced to stiffen like crazy. I spent years trying in vain to understand what people were on about with rotation, all to no avail. My tremolos were pathetic. Finally, I can do the ones in the Liszt arrangement of Wagner's Liebestod with speed and ease- with only smallish amount of rotatation that are not close to enough to account for the movement of the keys. Only getting the fingers moving eliminated the need to brace things. Rotation and finger movement need to sometimes be worked on individually and sometimes combined. Ultimately, I use vastly more finger movement than rotation to produce speed and sound. Rotation is just what makes sure I'm not locked into position- not a literal instigator of the primary energy behind each key depression.

Whatever all the standard methods might claim, without notable finger movement, rotation is both slow and laboured and can cause considerable stiffness in the hand. While rotation is something you cannot afford to eliminate, neither is it something that can credibly account for anything more than a particular component of what is required to eliminate bracing.

Agreed, though I feel the optimal balance between rotation and finger movement may vary from individual to individual.

[nyiregyhazi]

Agreed, though I feel the optimal balance between rotation and finger movement may vary from individual to individual.

Absolutely- although I do feel it's worth pointing out that the faster you go, the more you tend to sway the role towards finger movements. Different people will perceive it differently, but it frankly annoys me when people speak as if rotation is the issue, without so much as referencing the necessity of creating movement from the thumb and fifth finger themselves. Misunderstanding rotation as the literal instigator of key movement (that countless people have portrayed it as) was of spectacular detriment to my technique. All it takes is to acknowledge the rotation tends to be a helper rather than an instigator and people can do their own experiments from both sides.

[mikemiester]

...the faster you go, the more you tend to sway the role towards finger movements...

Wrong sir, your perception starts to sway towards the end of your apparatus (fingers) and so it appears faster. If you really close your eyes and feel, you'll feel that they are in fact moving at the same rate proportionally adjusted of course, at least that's the way my arm works.

[stephen22]

I had the same problem with the Chopin Ab Polonaise. Under pressure your forearm tends to tighten up and eventually hurt. I found it helped to actively relax the forearm while playing.

[mikemiester]

I found it helped to actively relax the forearm while playing.

That will solve your problem in the immediate present, but the fact that you need to actively relax implies that you passively tighten/tense. That is the problem.

[pianoman53]

If these do not initiate the movement (aided by some forearm rotation which only aids and does not replace hand action) the hand is forced to stiffen like crazy.

No, it doesn't. If you have active fingers, and feel the fingers, that's perfectly enough for getting sound. The part where you no longer gets tired varies from person to person. Some works like Chopin studies - once you know then enough, you will stop feeling tired - with some help of slow practicing, and more effective movements.
For others they might need to vary the position of the arm and wrist. The tiring part is when it becomes static, and not the movement itself. If you simply rotate the arm in the air, you will be able to do it long enough without getting tired.

I spent years trying in vain to understand what people were on about with rotation, all to no avail. My tremolos were pathetic. Finally, I can do the ones in the Liszt arrangement of Wagner's Liebestod with speed and ease- with only smallish amount of rotatation that are not close to enough to account for the movement of the keys. Only getting the fingers moving eliminated the need to brace things. Rotation and finger movement need to sometimes be worked on individually and sometimes combined.

It's perfectly possible to only rotate tremolos. Most people will probably find easier ways to do it, by, again, active fingers. I feel the need to point out that active and moving isn't the same thing.
If you move your arm so that the natural weight is on the key, you will be able to only rotate.

Ultimately, I use vastly more finger movement than rotation to produce speed and sound. Rotation is just what makes sure I'm not locked into position- not a literal instigator of the primary energy behind each key depression.

I used vastly more rotation than fingers for my first 4 years of playing. I managed to play both waldstein, the mephisto waltz and the symphonic studies.
Now I have a new teacher, and I use more fingers, but the arm (or rather the weight of it) is still a far more than only fingers.

Whatever all the standard methods might claim, without notable finger movement, rotation is both slow and laboured and can cause considerable stiffness in the hand. While rotation is something you cannot afford to eliminate, neither is it something that can credibly account for anything more than a particular component of what is required to eliminate bracing.

If you get stiff from rotation, you simply do it wrong. The whole point it to release tension from the arm, and let the weight do the work.
I know many pianists from my country who basically only use the weight of the arm, and "Active" finger. They are able to play things that many pianists has to work for ages to learn - and they aren't even 20.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, it doesn't. If you have active fingers, and feel the fingers, that's perfectly enough for getting sound. The part where you no longer gets tired varies from person to person. Some works like Chopin studies - once you know then enough, you will stop feeling tired - with some help of slow practicing, and more effective movements.

The issue is what this objectively means, beneath the surface of personal perception. I speak with what I consider certainty, because I've come from a position of rocking around like crazy with minimal finger movement, to one of moving my fingers considerably. Even when I only think of rocking now, my fingers create movement anyway. The instinct is now present. This allows me the illusion of almost thinking rotation creates the bulk of the movement, at times. But when I look carefully at the results and realise that the amount of rocking on display cannot account for the amount of key movement (based on issues of geometry) I realise that my fingers move plenty now when I only intend to rock. Previously, I was not in such a place. If you already move your fingers well, you may not realise how much they do. You have to be in the habit of totally inadequate movement from the fingers, to expose the fact that rotation alone cannot compensate. Creating movement from the fingers is the only way to access the illusion of rotation doing all the work- whether a person perceives that movement or not. All too often, people who can rotate just fine but have stiff fingers are given the wrong advice- rather than shown the relationship between both finger movements and rotational movements.

For others they might need to vary the position of the arm and wrist. The tiring part is when it becomes static, and not the movement itself. If you simply rotate the arm in the air, you will be able to do it long enough without getting tired.

Exactly. I've always been able to do it in the air. My rotation has always been fine. I'm no faster or freer at rotating in the air than I had ever been before (plus I do tremolos on the piano a LOT faster than I can rock away from it). The only change is more finger movement, these days, when applied to the piano itself. Before that, my fingers did not know how to move, so the subjective illusion of fingers that only support was not available to me. Now that they generate movement of their own, they have the instinct to do their required job when I focus more on the rotation element. However, I will never forget what my fingers had to concentrate on doing to put me in position where rotation can create the illusion of being the main instigator. When rotation is done wrong, the thing that is wrong is fingers that are not creating the speed- hence it gets bogged down.

[pianoman53]

Well, you basically didn't reply on anything I wrote, and the part you did reply on, you made your own conclusions, which were the opposite of what I wrote.. So I don't really know how you want me to discuss with you, rather than not...

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, you basically didn't reply on anything I wrote, and the part you did reply on, you made your own conclusions, which were the opposite of what I wrote.. So I don't really know how you want me to discuss with you, rather than not...

If finger movements are not an issue, ask yourself why rotation is relatively slow in mid air or when rocking against a table top, compared to what you do in a tremolo on a piano? What a person perceives cannot be taken for granted objective fact- so saying what you individually perceive does not prove that finger movement is unnecessary. if you have nothing to add in response  to these issues (other than pretence that I did not address your points head on) then we had better leave it there, however.

[pianoman53]

Well, if you comment on what I write, and then comment it completely wrong, I think I have the right to comment.

I also said, it works if you simply use the weight of your arm, but you seem to miss that crucial point.
If your idea of discussion is to completely ignore the most important thing of the previous poster, I don't see myself wasting my time on "discussing" with you, since you simply see the part that, in any small way, favor your point.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, if you comment on what I write, and then comment it completely wrong, I think I have the right to comment.

I also said, it works if you simply use the weight of your arm, but you seem to miss that crucial point.
If your idea of discussion is to completely ignore the most important thing of the previous poster, I don't see myself wasting my time on "discussing" with you, since you simply see the part that, in any small way, favor your point.

i have not the slightest idea as to what it means to "simply use the weight of your arm". Firstly, "weight" can be gravitational  (a very slow force that will not account for eight notes per second) or applied by musculature. Two totally different things, before we even get to the question of in what way it going to be "used"- which your statement leaves blank.  Is that really supposed to mean something. Secondly (regardless of what that vague subjective phrase is supposed to refer to) I had previously been through every subjective viewpoint under the sun when it comes to the arm and it's weight. Not a single one generated speed or ease in tremolos. Changing how I move the thumb and fifth finger did. For any usage of the arm, there are countless possible different ways in which the hand can behave which the arm itself has no direct ability to alter. When the hand does not play it's role, the arms weight can at best trigger necessary actions in the hand or, at worst (as happened with me) fail to trigger them and lead nowhere.

I do not intend to continue further as you are simply reiterating assertions, backed up by the evidence that you believe yourself to do what you describe. There is no value in "discussion" that is founded upon assertions, without supporting reasoning. If you wish to explain what your point about the weight of the arm is supposed to be (or how the arm's weight could make it possible to rotate the arm faster at a piano keyboard than it can rotate in mid air, without the fingers contributing to that faster rate of motion) then please do. If you're only going to complain that I have not addressed an ambiguous point that you have not fleshed out (whilst not having addressed a single point I have made within my last three posts) I will bow out. Debate requires two-way feedback.

[pianoman53]

So you can quit whenever you want, but I can't?

And, just because something works for you doesn't mean it's the absolute truth. Again, something you seem to fail to see pass..

And if you try for one minute, you'll notice which kind of "weight from the arm" I'm referring to. If you make your wrist a bit higher, letting the arm "rest" on the fingers, it will be enough to just vibrate, or rotate, to get a tremolo.

It's fun. As soon as you don't understand something, you attack. When you do it, it's because we are too stupid. When the rest of the forum does it to you, it's still because we're too stupid. Don't act like God, and leave some of your giant ego behind. It's just sad...

[nyiregyhazi]

And if you try for one minute, you'll notice which kind of "weight from the arm" I'm referring to. If you make your wrist a bit higher, letting the arm "rest" on the fingers, it will be enough to just vibrate, or rotate, to get a tremolo.

You didn't read what I wrote. I spent years on that already- totally in vain. I can do it now, because paying attention to the necessity of learning the finger movements that I lacked in those years balanced the equations. Finally, they are instinctive enough to work when I focus more on the rotation side- that had used to dominate my intentions in all the years when I played poor tremolos.

That said, if I release full dead weight it slows down the tremolo considerably. I need to keep lightness to achieve extreme speeds. You can repeat yourself until the cows come home, but if you think that the subjective method that worked for you is universal or objective fact, we're both wasting out time. I have nothing more to add, as you're just repeating yourself- not to mention making false suppositions about myself, based on your own subjective experiences.

I'll bow out on a film of Pletnev

See about 23.20 in for the relevance. Ever seen a better shimmering tremolo? Do you suppose the tiny rocking is generating that key movement? Or that arm-weight is doing that? He is "falling" into each finger at that speed? 

[p2u_]

any suggestions including in that field are welcome!

The Internet is not a good place to give advice on this kind of questions. It would somehow help to see (and hear) how you play it, but I would still hesitate to comment. Please allow me to give you just some general ideas that may help you resolve this on your own. I'm not going to argue with anyone on what is right and what is wrong. Consider this just another opinion.

1) This is one of those pieces that is tackeled way too early. A tremolo is a trill, just with notes an octave apart. Everything that goes for trills goes for tremolos: finger activity (required for MUSICAL articulation) with rotational freedom. In other words: if you can't play trills with all finger combinations of your left hand, this may not yet be the piece you should work on. Solve your trill problems first at the intended tempo of those tremolos. If you can't do that, I don't see how you can ever fulfil the artistic challenges in the piece.

2) The size of your hand (how easily do you cover an octave) is another aspect that we know nothing about. Any comments on how you should hold your elbow, your arm, your hand are therefore relatively useless. Let's say that you should feel comfort at the intended speed. If thoughts about fatigue and endurance come up, you are most certainly doing something wrong.

3) What sound image do you have for those tremolos? How do they intensify the other parts in the music? If I say that the thumb notes of the tremolo are merely an echo, does that ring any bells for solving the perceived physical problems in your left hand? Playing those passages is not just pressing pieces of wood in the right time, with the right sound volume, at the right speed with this or that methodically correct movement, you know. Assuming you are technically ready for this piece, the kind of questions you should ask yourself pertain to art, not to your body.

Paul

[pianoman53]

You didn't read what I wrote. I spent years on that already- totally in vain. I can do it now, because paying attention to the necessity of learning the finger movements that I lacked in those years balanced the equations. Finally, they are instinctive enough to work when I focus more on the rotation side- that had used to dominate my intentions in all the years when I played poor tremolos.

That said, if I release full dead weight it slows down the tremolo considerably. I need to keep lightness to achieve extreme speeds. You can repeat yourself until the cows come home, but if you think that the subjective method that worked for you is universal or objective fact, we're both wasting out time. I have nothing more to add, as you're just repeating yourself- not to mention making false suppositions about myself, based on your own subjective experiences.

I'll bow out on a film of Pletnev

See about 23.20 in for the relevance. Ever seen a better shimmering tremolo? Do you suppose the tiny rocking is generating that key movement? Or that arm-weight is doing that? He is "falling" into each finger at that speed? 

Okay, it's completely pointless. You first misunderstand my comment to such an extent that it becomes the opposite of what I wrote, You then become a martyr "who struggled for years", and then  you find parts that works for your favor only, but can easily be seen in different ways. Finally, you bring youtube into it. "If pletnev does it, this is the way it should be done!".

In a private message you also started with name calling, just because my is different from yours.

Yeah, this "discussion" with you ends now.

[nyiregyhazi]

Okay, it's completely pointless. You first misunderstand my comment to such an extent that it becomes the opposite of what I wrote, You then become a martyr "who struggled for years", and then  you find parts that works for your favor only, but can easily be seen in different ways. Finally, you bring youtube into it. "If pletnev does it, this is the way it should be done!".

In a private message you also started with name calling, just because my is different from yours.

I wouldn't have replied at all, were it not for the outright lie that you tell at the end. I responded to your unsolicited PM (in which you called me among others thing, and I directly quote, "a pathetic wanker") to tell you that I'm not interested in any perceived personal battle or slanging match with you and to remind you that I disagree with points- not people. If you'd like to quote whatever name I supposedly called you in response to your insults, be my guest. I have a record of both messages and nothing to hide. I request that you stick to the topic from now on, if you want to take this any further.

Seeing as I've posted now I'll also correct your misrepresentation of my argument and return to the rather more interesting issue of pianism.  My argument is that it's impossible for rotation to generate both sufficient speed and amplitude for rapid tremolos, without finger movement. I'll ask once again how you can explain why rotation is so much slower in the air than rapid tremolos can be executed at a piano- if the fingers don't play a role in generating the movement?  Try yourself to generate the speed that Pletnev does with a large amplitude of rotation. You'll find that it's impossible to do it, except at low speeds. If you deny this, by all means post a video. It's as dangerous to eliminate finger movement from the mix (and conducive to physical tensions and stiffness) as it is to attempt complete isolation of the fingers from the arm. At such speeds, the rotation has to be condensed to smaller quantities- which cannot rationally fully account for the key movement.

[p2u_]

pianoman53 and nyiregyhazi (not necessarily in that order),

You both have a point - forearm rotation + active (responsive) fingers play a big role in solving the technical problems in those tremolos. Now, please, bury the hatchet.

Specifically to pianoman53:

"Lol, didn't read." (2x) is a rather useless statement in the context of this thread. Is that just meant to try and provoke N., to get him banned eventually, or what? I remind you that it was you who proposed blocking users from certain topics for going off-topic: Blocking users from commenting on your topics.

Paul

[nyiregyhazi]

pianoman53 and nyiregyhazi (not necessarily in that order),

You both have a point - forearm rotation + active (responsive) fingers play a big role in solving the technical problems in those tremolos. Now, please, bury the hatchet.

The combination is exactly what I was arguing for- in response to a claim that rotation can replace the need for fingers that are moving. Both elements need to be trained, but at the highest speeds forearm rotation is too slow to be much more than a response rather than an instigator of key movement.

Consider how much more effort it is to use muscles to reverse a direction of movement directly once in motion. Mistime it by a fraction of a second and you contract against yourself. Beyond a certain speed, the muscles aren't even quick enough. Ultimately, at the highest speeds, the finger simply moves the key and then the springs of the key move it back up. Rotation is an important element of practising to acquire the freedom required for this final rapid product, but fingers that do not actively generate movement are inherently slow (without even mentioning that, if not creating movement in a productive direction, they can only be collapsing to slow things further or locked into place by muscular tightness).  At this point, the mild remained of rotation is  probably more of a reaction to the fingers. Either way, it is not  big enough to rationally account for the level of movement that is seen at the keys themselves.

If anyone can find a video of an ultra-fast tremolo (at the kind of speed seen on the Pletnev film) where the level of rotation is visibly pronounced enough to reasonably account for every key depression (without additional distance being created by finger movement), I urge them to post it here. While rotation is an essential part of the puzzle, its role in within it is typically completely mislabelled.

PS. Regarding his evident personal issues with me, I'll just ignore it and stick to the pianistic issues under discussion, the same as with other posters.

[mikemiester]

....I spent years trying in vain to understand what people were on about with rotation, all to no avail. My tremolos were pathetic....

So why are you offering advice and telling me I'm wrong when you clearly admit to not know how to do tremolos? My tremelos are great, so my teachers tell me, so why don't we go with my method until you find something that works better.

What about the thumb and fifth finger? If these do not initiate the movement (aided by some forearm rotation which only aids and does not replace hand action)

No. I never mentioned a thing about forearm rotation "replacing finger/hand action" you're sadly mistaken, and I fear that this can't be articulated over the internet. What I said, or tried to say, is that the movement is initiated by the forearm, now that does NOT mean that the hand is supposed to be dragged around like a limp noodle - I just assumed that was obvious, my mistake.

If the wrist, hand, fingers, etc. "initiate" movement, then the forearm (which is actually the appropriate power source for movement and depression of keys. Don't believe me? look at the size of those finger muscles. Do it a few million times like I have (literally), then come back to me and tell me how wrong I am)  is merely playing a "tag-along" role. Does a car drive an engine? Nope, an engine drives a car.

But I digress, you are all more than welcome to keep playing your way, doesn't bother me as long as I can't see your hands and cringe at the pain you will feel if you play like that enough (which I did... i.e. 7-12 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a number of years)

[nyiregyhazi]

So why are you offering advice and telling me I'm wrong when you clearly admit to not know how to do tremolos? My tremelos are great, so my teachers tell me, so why don't we go with my method until you find something that works better.

You quoted that out of context (although note that I said WERE pathetic, not ARE). I stated that I could not play a decent tremolo in all my years of attempting it at speed with rotation as the intended instigator. Now I produce key movement primarily via the fingers (with rotation being present yet too slight be regarded as the literal source of motion) I can play an extremely rapid tremolo with little effort.

No. I never mentioned a thing about forearm rotation "replacing finger/hand action" you're sadly mistaken, and I fear that this can't be articulated over the internet. What I said, or tried to say, is that the movement is initiated by the forearm, now that does NOT mean that the hand is supposed to be dragged around like a limp noodle - I just assumed that was obvious, my mistake.

I didn't accuse anyone specifically. However, the fact that the hand should not be limp does not lead to it automatically moving- if you assume that the rotation is the initiator of key movement. Instead, the description of the forearm as the instigator typically leads to a braced hand, which scarcely performs better. The fact that fingers must move is certainly not obvious- especially if you portray rotation as the literal power source for key movement (which implies that they do not generate any movement in their own right).

If the wrist, hand, fingers, etc. "initiate" movement, then the forearm (which is actually the appropriate power source for movement and depression of keys. Don't believe me? look at the size of those finger muscles.

Look at the Pletnev film I linked- specifically at how much his fingers move and how subtle the rotation is.

But I digress, you are all more than welcome to keep playing your way, doesn't bother me as long as I can't see your hands and cringe at the pain you will feel if you play like that enough (which I did... i.e. 8-12 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a number of years

I haven't had pain in tremolos since I introduced more finger action as a direct instigator of key movement. Without it, I got stiff very easily. Even in the air, I can move faster if the fingers move.

Try leaning your thumb lightly against your second finger (to steady it with minimal effort)  and rotate as fast you can- with a big enough movement to depress a key before each change of direction. It's nowhere near as quick as when the thumb generates its own movement away from the palm, if it is still. Rotation is simply not a very fast movement, in itself.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's another great Russian pianist playing the Mussorgsky tremolos via phenomenally significant levels of finger movement and only subtle rotation (that implies freedom rather than instigation of movement via the rotation):

&index=14&feature=plpp_video

I should greatly like to see an example from that those who deny the role of finger movement- which shows significant enough amplitude of rotation to get the keys down and either minimal or no visible finger movement.

[mikemiester]

...Look at... how subtle the rotation is...

/end thread.

P.S. to the above posters. No one here is arguing that fingers aren't fast, or that you can't play a tremolo fast with fingers being the primary power source / etc. What I'm arguing is that just because you can do it fast doesn't make it right for your body. There are other ways to get similar, or even greater effects without over-purposing the fingers. yeah, they can do it - who said they can't? Doesn't mean they should. I just said it's not the most efficient or ergonomic way to do it.

Hands are extremely similar, regardless of what anyone says (barring genetic defects / mutations) Hand size varies, but the makeup and anatomy of our hands are pretty much the same, or similar enough where one method that truly works for "the hand" will probably work for 95%-99% of hands. The problem is in the translation of the method by the teacher, and the acuteness of perception and coordination of the student.

[nyiregyhazi]

/end thread.

P.S. to the above posters. No one here is arguing that fingers aren't fast, or that you can't play a tremolo fast with fingers being the primary power source / etc. What I'm arguing is that just because you can do it fast doesn't make it right for your body. There are other ways to get similar, or even greater effects without over-purposing the fingers. yeah, they can do it - who said they can't? Doesn't mean they should. I just said it's not the most efficient or ergonomic way to do it.

Hands are extremely similar, regardless of what anyone says (barring genetic defects / mutations) Hand size varies, but the makeup and anatomy of our hands are pretty much the same, or similar enough where one method that truly works for "the hand" will probably work for 95%-99% of hands. The problem is in the translation of the method by the teacher, and the acuteness of perception and coordination of the student.

So, a great pianist like merzhanov, who played well into his 90s,didn't know how to move efficiently or what was right for his body. Yet he still played well into his 90s with no problems? Are you actually being serious here? When I use similar motions, my fingers become freer from the experience- not over purposed. Excess intent at rotation was what caused stiffness before.

You didn't respond to my request to link a video that shows the supposedly ergonomic version without finger movements and with high amplitude of rotation. Is it really that hard to find a single example off youtube, if this is really what people supposedly do?

[mikemiester]

So, a great pianist like merzhanov, who played well into his 90s,didn't know how to move efficiently or what was right for his body. Yet he still played well into his 90s with no problems? Are you actually being serious here?

And if you look at smoking (proven to cause cancer) can you not find numerous cases of people who smoke for decades without developing lung cancer or emphysema? Just because something is bad for your body doesn't mean everyone's bodies will develop problems - some people are just highly resilient.

You didn't respond to my request to link a video that shows the supposedly ergonomic version without finger movements and with high amplitude of rotation. Is it really that hard to find a single example off youtube, if this is really what people supposedly do?

Really? Okay, I give up. Clearly you're not understanding the most basic aspects of what I'm trying to relay. I thought I explained my argument better, but maybe not. The forearm is the source of proper movement, that does NOT mean that:

A.) As you seem to think by what I underlined, that forearm initiated movement requires it to be more than finger movements? A balanced arm/hand/finger unit doesn't really have any one part moving obviously more and faster/slower than any other part - all parts move in one natural flowing way. Point A *the source of initiation doesn't imply that that part will be the one that moves most, or is most obvious

B.) "without finger movements" what? I just corrected that misconception in a previous post. uggh...

Look man, I really give up - If you don't see what I mean, I just simply can't show you via text on the internet. I'm explaining the same thing six ways from sunday to no avail, so have it your way, and I'll have it mine.

To the OP though - listen to me, because I'm right 

[p2u_]

you are all more than welcome to keep playing your way, doesn't bother me as long as I can't see your hands and cringe at the pain you will feel if you play like that enough (which I did... i.e. 7-12 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a number of years)

Most of what people are talking about here is perception and awareness, which are different for all of us. I can assure you that initiating movement with the fingers only does not cause pain and does not lead to injury. Why should it, when taking off dust from a piano key with your fingertip only is already enough to cause tone? Systematically overdoing the finger/hand work, worse even: locking out the arm is bad, yes, and will eventually lead to injury, but N. explicitly made the point that that is NOT what he is talking about. This may have gotten lost in the general noise of his argument.

Now allow me to use an analogy to show what fingers are really for.

If we compare piano playing to (bel canto) singing, then the arm (rotation if you wish) is your BREATH. Without breath, you don't get tone, right? But!... the only thing you get is "whaawhaawhaa", - sound with emotion only - ,unless you add ARTICULATION (=intelligence in the music). That's what the fingers are for in piano playing. If either (breath or articulation) is missing, there can be no real art. That's exactly the reason old masters recommend us to listen to good singers, isn't it?

EDIT: Voicing of chords, for example, CANNOT be explained by arm weight only. How can you push one entity (the hand) down and still get differentiation in tone volume within that same chord? Even for someone who does not play the instrument, it must be clear that finger activity accounts for the beauty of good voicing.

Paul

[pianoman53]

I think I know why N and I git into a "fight": you simply misunderstood my point.
I never meant to say that I not use fingers at all. Nor did I say that the part with weight would be my first choise.

Why it didn't work for you is either because you didn't use any finger activity at all (I said I don't move them, not that they aww inactive) or you pushed the weight. If one pushes the hand, it will obviously tense up, and it won't work, but if one uses weight, and rotate from the wrist, it works. I also want to make clear that I don't do like this. It doesn't work for me. However, I know that it works for others.

[nyiregyhazi]

A.) As you seem to think by what I underlined, that forearm initiated movement requires it to be more than finger movements? A balanced arm/hand/finger unit doesn't really have any one part moving obviously more and faster/slower than any other part - all parts move in one natural flowing way. Point A *the source of initiation doesn't imply that that part will be the one that moves most, or is most obvious

This tells me that, whatever you might think, I have been referring to exactly what you meant (as does the fact that you seriously claim that the videos of great pianists I showed would be an unhealthy way to move). I  still disagree- regardless of how incredible you might find it that a person would not share your concept of what works. If you are talking about the equivalent of rocking a steel hand (in the sense that fingers move, but only as part of a big fixed unit, where movement that is directly caused by the forearm) then indeed the source of inititiation will not move the most and I had never suggested that. It will move an EQUAL distance. That requires a significantly large amplitude of rotation, as a matter of geometry, if it is to account for depression of the keys- hence my request for a video that illustrates it.

Look man, I really give up - If you don't see what I mean, I just simply can't show you via text on the internet. I'm explaining the same thing six ways from sunday to no avail, so have it your way, and I'll have it mine.

Then post the video I requested instead.

Is the true source of your frustration actually difficulty in finding anything that reflects what you are speaking of? I didn't even look hard to find to find my two examples. I ran a quick search and also looked at Kissin (who moves slightly less via the hand, but whose thumb moves most visibly) but ignored him due to a less decent camera angle. Why would it be so hard to find a video of your healthy version, if you are so sure that you describing an objective reality (as opposed to a subjective illusion)?

[nyiregyhazi]

Rotation, though in the medical sense the term's misapplied by piano teachers, is certainly the way to go.

"Misapplied"!!! Your ignorance simply beggars belief...

Rotation is NOT a word that is reserved for medical jargon. Are you hoping to ban anyone from using a standard English word in the context of its actual meaning? I doubt whether it even has a medical meaning. When used in reference to anatomy, people are just using the word as it means in standard English- just the same as anyone who recognises the irrefutable fact that a wrist that is turning about an axis is ROTATING!

If you want to be a pedant, then start by applying the most basic factual accuracy in your assertions- instead of trying to twist reality to make people who correctly use standard words appear to have been in error. They were not in error. You are, in your understanding of language- and need to check the basic definitions of words before telling others how they are allowed to use them.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think I know why N and I git into a "fight": you simply misunderstood my point.
I never meant to say that I not use fingers at all. Nor did I say that the part with weight would be my first choise.

Why it didn't work for you is either because you didn't use any finger activity at all (I said I don't move them, not that they aww inactive) or you pushed the weight. If one pushes the hand, it will obviously tense up, and it won't work, but if one uses weight, and rotate from the wrist, it works. I also want to make clear that I don't do like this. It doesn't work for me. However, I know that it works for others.

It wasn't so much absence of finger activity as the quality. My instincts led my fingers to try to firm up- rather than to attempt some degree of movement of their own. Quite honestly, even weight and rocking didn't work for me then and still don't now. Although rocking now tends to trigger an instinct for the vital finger motions, I can still simulate what I used to do- where it's literally a case of trying to use rocking through stationary fingers. As soon as I try to go fast from their, the forearms just locks up. Also, I have to actively support a great deal of the weight and use finger movement, with the arm merely free to rotate in response. Otherwise a truly high speed tremolo does not become accesible. I  can involve more weight at slower tempos (and it's a good exercise for practising). However, as it gets faster, both weight and rocking have to be reduced to permit the freedom of movement.