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Topic: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??  (Read 6137 times)

Offline proklover

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Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
on: December 05, 2012, 12:02:00 AM
HI all,
I have this really weird (well, more like annoying) habit where i raise my pink up tensely during intensely fast scales. I've been trying to fix this by trying to move my fourth finger independently and concentrate on not moving the pinky...but that is almost impossible without physical force.

How should I practice to avoid lifting my pinky??? and to have faster, clearer , evener scales in general? ;)

"That's why I say 'seem', rather than 'to be'-because seeming is art's job and measure."

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 12:07:17 AM
HI all,
I have this really weird (well, more like annoying) habit where i raise my pink up tensely during intensely fast scales. I've been trying to fix this by trying to move my fourth finger independently and concentrate on not moving the pinky...but that is almost impossible without physical force.

How should I practice to avoid lifting my pinky??? and to have faster, clearer , evener scales in general? ;)



Lift even higher still  (and ever other finger except the one keeping a note down) after every note, in ultra slow practise. Then let ithem slowly dangle down (without letting the knuckles fall- only the rest of the fingers) and only then play the next note. It's generally a kind of panic reflex in response to instability. The process described there creates more stability in whichever finger is keeping a key down, so you'll ultimately find that you don't need to do it at all any more. You can just leave it dangling straight down, in the the end- but not before you're used to getting the knuckle in an elevated position. If you droop you will feel less stable and more inclined to reach out for balance.

Offline proklover

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 12:52:00 AM
Then let ithem slowly dangle down (without letting the knuckles fall- only the rest of the fingers) and only then play the next note.

Wait....this is kind of ambiguous. You mean let the rest of the fingers fall? But don't let the knuckles fall of the finger depressing the actual key, or none of the fingers' knuckles can fall?
"That's why I say 'seem', rather than 'to be'-because seeming is art's job and measure."

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 01:38:15 AM
Wait....this is kind of ambiguous. You mean let the rest of the fingers fall? But don't let the knuckles fall of the finger depressing the actual key, or none of the fingers' knuckles can fall?

Well, maybe not fall. Just let them descend again gradually, to rest against the keys. They will just dangle from the high knuckle. If the knuckle droops at all the supporting finger didn't support properly (but if you're on 2, you may also need a slight conscious intent to keep the 5th knuckle from drooping, when the finger dangles back down after reaching out).  Make sure the arm is not pressing at all and that whichever finger is keeping a key down is lengthening well to keep the knuckles supported. Without that support, the whole hand has to work harder to keep stable. In my experience, students who reach out uncontrollably are those who droop the knuckles and don't balance well on the previous finger. Reaching out further still starts to eliminate the habit- if it triggers a more efficient balance that is sustained when the fingers end by dangling down.

It's all about quality of contact from the last finger- in a way that opens you out away from the piano rather than in a way that allows you to droop down lazily towards it. Specifically regarding the 5th, I feel that a lazy 4th finger is most likely to make the fifth want to reach out. With this finger more than any, reach out your fifth deliberately, but then observe what is necessary to get it hanging freely, while the fourth supports that possibility- not with high pressure but with a clear sense of elevating your knuckles up.

There's an exercise in here:

https://pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/action-and-reaction-in-practise-part-i.html

where you "wave" from the fingers while resting on the thumb, that gives an easy way of feeling how to finish in a way that dangles the fingers loosely down from a supported knuckle, that does not droop down itself.

(no. 3 here:
if you want to go straight to the demonstration)

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 10:38:48 AM
It's a problem you see on violinist's bow hands quite often.  There it's a matter of putting the bow into their hand as it's lying restfully by their side.  If I was really concerned about your problem I would try playing a keyboard from that position.  Strange, but everything's worth a try.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 03:25:32 PM
It's a problem you see on violinist's bow hands quite often.  There it's a matter of putting the bow into their hand as it's lying restfully by their side.  If I was really concerned about your problem I would trying playing a keyboard from that position.  Strange, but everything's worth a try.

I don't think that's remotely strange. Many great pianists use such a position. The problem is that relaxation only forms that position when you are hanging at your side- not in the midst of a scale. To maintain that position, you have to get a very good quality of connection between whichever finger played last and the depressed key. Otherwise the hand gets forced to work far harder and either resorts to such emergency balancing movements as that described, or generically tenses up to try to maintain the shape of that resting position (minus the actual resting). If you focus the right activity in the finger that played last, it's possible to get almost complete freedom everywhere else in the hand.

Offline sucom

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 03:34:51 PM
HI all,
I have this really weird (well, more like annoying) habit where i raise my pink up tensely during intensely fast scales. I've been trying to fix this by trying to move my fourth finger independently and concentrate on not moving the pinky...but that is almost impossible without physical force.

How should I practice to avoid lifting my pinky??? and to have faster, clearer , evener scales in general? ;)



How is your pinky, in general, when playing scales slowly?  Is there any tension?  Do you have a habit of straightening it out while playing or is it always nicely rounded and relaxed?  If there is any hint at all of your pinky straightening out and tensing while playing slowly, this will be compounded when you play more quickly.  Pushing yourself to play quickly can create tension in other areas of the body so if there is already a tendency in one area of your body, it may worsen.

The very fact that you are aware of this tension suggests that you can now begin to release it!

My suggestion would be to play scales slowly while keeping your focus on relaxed fingers.  I don't mean sloppy fingers, they should still be reasonably firm, but ensure they are relaxed and rounded over the keys.  Then, when you are able to do this slowly, VERY gradually begin to increase the speed, each time checking that little finger.  If it straightens, slow down and deliberately relax it.  Very, very gradually increase your speed.  You will need the utmost patience for this because I'm talking VERY gradually here.  

You are already well on your way to overcoming this simply because you have become aware of it.  Now it's up to you to control it, with patience and RELAXED determination.   My little finger used to rise every time I played a trill.  When my teacher suggested putting a flag on it, I began to focus on the problem and it disappeared very quickly.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 08:02:51 PM
I don't think that's remotely strange.
I worded badly.  What I meant by strange is practicing with the arm hanging at the side.  A keyboard is then positioned to accommodate.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #8 on: December 05, 2012, 08:41:58 PM
I worded badly.  What I meant by strange is practicing with the arm hanging at the side.  A keyboard is then positioned to accommodate.

The keyboard is positioned to accomodate an arm hanging by the side? I'm not sure if the piano action actually works unless it's positioned the right way up.

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #9 on: December 05, 2012, 10:13:57 PM
That's why I said keyboard and not piano.  It's just a thought.
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 10:19:17 AM
That's why I said keyboard and not piano.  It's just a thought.

?

Offline p2u_

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Re: Fast scales WITHOUT lifting the pinky??
Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 11:06:24 AM
?

If you are not in for a keyboardclass, don't react, OK? Nobody wants to see yet another topic ruined.

Paul
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No more pearls before swine...
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