VOTE : PS Competition, Round 1 - Performances

[costicina]

I 

What I have liked from the beginning, which I think AJS helped set up, was this feeling of collaboration rather than competition.  All of us who are students are on the same journey of learning and gaining skills.  So when one person said "I'm having problems with this thing." others thought "me too", and then ideas were flowing.  This was a positive thing, and it had a warm feeling to it.

Yo0ure so right!!!!

[keypeg]

changed mind - might be confusing

[outin]

WHERE IS R-4??

Has he withdrawn? I thought I'd start the difficult job of making my mind, but I wanted to wait until he's in...

[andreslr6]

WHERE IS R-4??

Has he withdrawn? I thought I'd start the difficult job of making my mind, but I wanted to wait until he's in...

Besides, he would have like a week of disadvantage in votes. What's going to happen now? is this dead already? when are the votes stopping? and the results?

[keypeg]

I think we're still waiting for AJS' comments.  He's the other judge for commenting.

[ajspiano]

Ok so I had a busy weekend so haven't got to sit down and review all this properly yet.. So my comments are still coming..

I still haven't heard from R4 so I think we can just go ahead and vote.. I hope you've all been holding back for that reason.. I've only had 2 people vote so far.. 

I'd like to make a point of inviting the contestants to vote.. just not for yourself.

[fleetfingers]

Do you think the title of this thread should have the word "vote" included somehow? There are so many lurkers here and guest users and those who are not as active and don't read every single thread . . . perhaps they are skipping over this one because it doesn't apply to them. Just wondering if there should be more of an invitation in the title to encourage votes. 

[fleetfingers]

Thank you, lostinidlewonder for listening and commenting on/grading my performance. fwiw, I don't mind the comments being made public, at least for me. Also want to say that I liked this piece! I thought it was a great choice for the first round.

[ajspiano]

Do you think the title of this thread should have the word "vote" included somehow? There are so many lurkers here and guest users and those who are not as active and don't read every single thread . . . perhaps they are skipping over this one because it doesn't apply to them. Just wondering if there should be more of an invitation in the title to encourage votes. 

I think I'll do that..

I'm considering a re-post to the audition room if I don't receive very many more over the next day or so.

[keypeg]

It was also the week between Christmas and New Year.  In fact, for some people, Jan. 6 was Christmas, and Jan. 14 will be New Year.  More people should be around next week.

Also, do people know how to vote?  (Do they know how to extract information from longer posts?)

[unholeee]

I was waiting to hear what was up with rachforever's video before voting. My very scientific method includes listening to as many times as possible before I can't possibly stand it. So which ever has the most plays after that. And the if it was recorded on an a real piano, bias.

[ajspiano]

ok..  so a total of 2 more people have voted since my last post.. I'm going to post a link to this thread in the audition room. Hopefully I wont cop it for reposting.

I also received performances from johnmar78 and have added them to the OP, links are provided here also. I think its ok to included because there has been limited voting so far and I will weight the results to those who were in on time.

….....................

johnmar78

Tchaikovsky Op 39. No. 21

Schumann - Traumerei

….....................


Here's hoping we get a few more votes in the next few days.

unholeee, I suspect that we may leave it in regard to rach_forever as I still haven't heard anything.

[littletune]

P.S.: If you allow me, I'll give you my take on littletune's performance.
She didn't actually play "Sweet Dreams" by Tchaikovsky, but rather "Sweet Dreams, My Little Birdie" by littletune with millions of hardly perceicable subtleties. Under the circumstances (with the untuned piano and all), I would have excluded her from participation, but with honorable mention because of what she was able to do with that piece; make it her own.

Paul

Well you're pretty right,   i was thinking about my bird, I even thought I would mention him in the beginning of the video, but I kinda had a feeling it wouldn't be received so well   so I rather didn't cause I was afraid I would dishonour his name. I don't know exactly why i would need to be excluded, I mean I know I said it myself in the beginning but I don't really think that anymore. I think I have the right to be in the competition just like everyone else! (And I know you probably didn't mean it like in the way that I wouldn't have a right to, but in a different way). And... didn't you say first in your post something about that I had a lot of energy... or was that some other post   you people keep changing your posts and then I get confused!   because I did read it right away when you posted it I just didn't feel like answering at that time, cause I could have said something that I really wouldn't want to say...   but now I'm ok I hope!   It's just funny because that thing about the energy was exactly the one thing I did/do like about my playing... I know my playing is VERY awkward compared to the way other people play but I have more energy than most people   I mean I know that, other people have said that and not just about the piano but about everything I do (when I want to do something). And I liked all of the performances but in some of them something bothered me and that was that I couldn't feel any life or energy or soul (or whatever you wanna call it) in them. And most people don't notice that, but I do and then I'm like: WHYYYYYYY? it could be sooo perfect but it's kinda meeeeeeeh...   Yes people I can see into your souls     you can't fool me!          

(i'm kinda disappointed that Rach4ever didn't post his video too! Probably it's because he saw the last place is definitely mine!!! mine!!!! ALL MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!   )

[costicina]

Littletune, I think that what P2u says, that you were able to perform this (rather dull) piece  making it your piece is one of the best compliment one could hope to get.
After all, in classic music, this is  what distinguishes the very few excellences from the mass of average pianists people.
Your 'energy' is your treasure and your force: please preserve it at any cost!

[p2u_]

I don't know exactly why i would need to be excluded, I mean I know I said it myself in the beginning but I don't really think that anymore. I think I have the right to be in the competition just like everyone else! (And I know you probably didn't mean it like in the way that I wouldn't have a right to, but in a different way).

I was thinking about the future contest, and saw this stage as a preliminary to that contest. I would exclude you only to protect you because I think it's UNFAIR and UNREASONABLE to have you compete on your instrument against advanced people with well-tuned concert grands. I cannot exclude I'm wrong about this. I am sincerely sorry if I hurt your feelings. Forgive me for my wrong word usage or half-baked explanations.

And... didn't you say first in your post something about that I had a lot of energy... or was that some other post   you people keep changing your posts and then I get confused!  

Actually, I said that AFTERWARDS, post # 70:

she has the temperament of a volcano (c)

Paul

[p2u_]

Littletune, I think that what P2u says, that you were able to perform this (rather dull) piece  making it your piece is one of the best compliment one could hope to get.
After all, in classic music, this is  what distinguishes the very few excellences from the mass of average pianists people.
Your 'energy' is your treasure and your force: please preserve it at any cost!

Thank you, costicina, for this truly beautiful and very positive post.

Paul

[keypeg]

I was thinking about the future contest, and saw this stage as a preliminary to that contest. I would exclude you only to protect you because I think it's UNFAIR and UNREASONABLE to have you compete on your instrument against advanced people with well-tuned concert grands.

That was a concern all along.  The piece was slated as "grade 4 or 5" but the first people to join were advanced pianists, possibly even professionals.  One reason I joined was to act as a bridge because I'm somewhere in between.  I have a digital.  I was self-taught 35 years ago, but after getting a piano again, have had a teacher since last year who is helping me unlock my body. For a singer this particular piece is ideal.  The word UNLOCK is important.  Because for most of us, we are students.  That means that the music is still locked inside of us, and we are going through steps to learn to get it out.  The aspect of this competition that I did not like at all near the end was this idea that the piece had to be played up to certain things.  Not for students - because we must play according to what we have.    I wondered about competitions, and now I'm even more certain that I don't like the idea.

What I'm trying to say is that a student is in the state of being formed, of becoming.  We are in the process of getting skills so that in the future our playing will evolve.  The music is still inside us, and what we WILL be able to do is not yet there --- but a good teacher can see and hear what is already there.  LittleTunes, I listened to your playing.  Something is there - it is not "just notes" - and more importantly, it will grow; or - what is already there will come out more and more.  And it is there.

You belong in this project that AJS set up.  Let's not call it a competition.  It was to be an exploration of the music, what we can see in it, and how we might play it.  We were growing along this, each of us according to where we were at and what we could do.  THIS is what I joined, and why I joined it.

[littletune]

I was thinking about the future contest, and saw this stage as a preliminary to that contest. I would exclude you only to protect you because I think it's UNFAIR and UNREASONABLE to have you compete on your instrument against advanced people with well-tuned concert grands. I cannot exclude I'm wrong about this. I am sincerely sorry if I hurt your feelings. Forgive me for my wrong word usage or half-baked explanations.

Actually, I said that AFTERWARDS, post # 70:
Paul

Oh no you didn't hurt my feelings!! I just said it in a stupid way!   I'm sorry! I didn't have much time last week and yesterday when it was Sunday evening I thought I had to write something finally but I didn't have enough time again so I was writing faster than I usually do (cause usually it takes me a pretty long time to write things because I always check so something wouldn't sound the wrong way,   but yesterday I didn't and I got the feeling later that I should have said it in a different way cause you might understand it as if I was hurt or angry or something). And I should have said thank you for all your nice comments and I should have checked other posts too!!!!! So sorry and thank you! I though you meant it in that way (as in being unfair and all that) I just wasn't completely sure   I know you are a very nice person!!!    
(...and I'm writing really fast again because I need to go to music school soon and I have to take out my dog before that and do some other things ... and besides that our internet is working really funny one minute it's working and the next it's not, like right now it just disconnected so I'm waiting and hoping that I'll even be able to post this,... but I just really wanted to say this!)    
Thank you Paul!

Littletune, I think that what P2u says, that you were able to perform this (rather dull) piece  making it your piece is one of the best compliment one could hope to get.
After all, in classic music, this is  what distinguishes the very few excellences from the mass of average pianists people.
Your 'energy' is your treasure and your force: please preserve it at any cost!

Thank you Costicina! you are very nice too!   I didn't want what I wrote to sound like I was angry or hurt or something! maybe I was trying to defend myself a little   and I was a little awkward with my writing ...  like with piano      

Thanks again!  

Thank you Keypeg! Well if so few people are voting it will probably really be more a project than a competition  but even if it is a competition I'm completely ok with my last place really! 

And before I wanted to post cause the internet came back and then it said: Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.  and then I read Keypegs post and wrote something back and now the internet is gone again! Oh oh I think it's back...

[keypeg]

(Done - fwiw)

This is my third try in two weeks.  Maybe this time I can get the words out.

Playing music on an instrument has two major sides: 1. There is the thing inside us that relates to the music and where we want to express what we feel in the music; 2. There is "technique" and "theory" where we get skills in how to use our bodies on the instrument, and we get formal understanding which helps us bring more out of the music.  When you know you have G7-C or V7-I in the piece, and it feels like a section is ending, even that is "theory". ---  If we've never been taught but we do have music inside us, then we might be totally in the first side (1) and play sort of wildly with a hint of something, or be locked up trying to get it out but we can't.  Otoh, there are people who are totally in (2), that is they know exactly how to move and time themselves, because they have been taught, but feel nothing and no real feeling comes out.  For a musician, these two - 1 & 2 - mesh and intertwine, one coming from the other in both directions.  It is one of the most important things my first ever (violin) teacher told me.  As students, we are in the process of getting there.  This is very important, and why I don't like this idea of competitions, especially at earlier stages.

As a student first time round, I was like a roof without walls or a floor.  I had played different instruments self-taught, and gotten at music somehow with strange "reading".  I could feel things, and heard things in music.  So if I was shown generally how to hold the instrument and move, I took off on that and tried to express what I heard - by hook and by crook.  (violin) I heard the whole thing, and tried to play what I heard.  I advanced a pile of grades in one year and then got stuck.  There had been a six year old boy doing the same grade 1 exam as I was doing at nearly 50, and my teacher had said "You must remember that he has taken over a year to learn what you did in a few months." (so I wouldn't feel bad) - but even then, I had the feeling that this child who had taken a year to my few months sounded steady and solid.  

Later when I seemed unable to progress I started to explore what learning to play can actually be.  This is where the (1) and (2) first came up.  I was missing foundations.  I could chase what I was hearing in my head, and never had a chance to know that C was C, or what an efficient way of moving the hands along with the body might be like.  That is the steady and solid of that little boy.   It seemed that I "had this already" because I could get music to come out.  But in a way, I didn't really.  I also learned another important thing.  I was being told by someone that we must do every basic thing perfectly, or we would be doomed forever with the imperfections that we established.  If this were true, we would have no dancers, orators, or singers, because all small children stumble, fall, and mispronounce.  Our skills evolve and begin imperfectly.

By the way, while learning that instrument I did a lot of swaying, like LittleTunes, because there was so much in me that wouldn't come out, and for me - I didn't know how to move.

After this I got a piano.  I was no longer able to take lessons with anyone, and I also knew how important it was to get basic technique.  I only played very simple music so that my old habits wouldn't gel, and spent most of my time on theory and understanding music that way.  Then I was fortunate enough last year to start working with a teacher who is giving me what I need --- the floor and walls to my roof --- the 1 for 2.  Since as a student I know these are the goals, because of my past, we can work well without it going off track.  

Most of the time in my practising has been spent on things like learning how to play a chord without locking up the wrist or arm.  I'm slowing down to know that this note I'm playing is a D#, and here is a G7 followed by a Cm.  We rarely polish pieces, and mostly I am working in a mechanical, basic way ("unmusical"), in order to get the floor and walls.  It's topsy turvy because I'm missing things.  LittleTunes - you're going forward step by step, and your floor and walls are being built.  I saw two things in your playing, besides the music that will come out more and more --- I saw that steadiness: each note and chord that you played, you knew where you were going; and I saw subtle little movements in your wrist that I've had to strive for.  Your playing is evolving from the ground up, and that is what is supposed to happen.  Again: We are students.

When I read the assessments describing what the music "should" have in it, I had two reactions:
- in a competition, esp. assuming that the music is being played by professionals who have the skills, yes
- in the context of students playing - a student being someone whose skills are being formed - depending on where the student is at - absolutely not!  I'll qualify that.

I am not (yet) a piano teacher.  But I do know that things evolve, and trying to go after results before having the underlying skills can tie a student into knots.  In my own experience, it actually hurt me, because I pushed any way possible to produce the sounds I wanted to produce.  We play at the level we are at, using the skills that we have.   Also, some of the musical effects are created by doing a combination of things, which we have to learn to do, by first getting those "things" solidly, before using them.  It is foolish to expect someone to do this, before having the skills and knowledge.  (That's the best way I know to word it.)  I don't know how a "competition" could be geared toward that.  Say this piece can be played at different levels (which it can) --- does the judge say that a student at a grade 4 level should play as expected for someone who has that set of skills, while a professional should be expected to play commensurate to those skills?

This has become long and rambly.  What I'm trying to get at is what it means to be a music student.

[ajspiano]

Ok, so we have 10 votes now.. which is not as many as I'd have liked.. but its a bit better than the few that had drizzled in before.. Thanks to those who took the time.

Because I've been caught up with life (or to be more honest just learning how to cook lots of awesome food because I want to) the last week I have yet to do my judge/vote bit.. Which I plan to do tonight after my meeting with Francisca (who is my wedding invitation designer person).

Then I will announce our champions..  lets hope the suspense is killing you.

[ajspiano]

OK you lot. - this post contains the results, so don't read any further if you are having your first look at the thread and would like to listen to the pieces before reading the results.

Now if you do want to know - scroll down..






















This is how it is.

The overall winner is..
andreslr6 - CONGRATULATIONS.

The overall Runner up is Costanza - BY 1 VOTE.

...........

For "Sweet dreams" - the winner is..
Keypeg -

runner up..
Costanza

For the own choice...
Andreslr6

runner up..
Costanza

...............

Very honourable mention to Keypeg- who just pipped andreslr6 on votes for both pieces with sweetdreams alone...But I cant give him the title without the second piece, nor can I ignore the particularly well played (in my opinion [and my opinion counts]) Prokofiev.

.....

I haven't personally written detailed comments for everyone yet but I feel it wouldnt be fair to delay any longer though the results and my opinion is not that significantly different to the voting/lostinidlewonder to sway the results, so the above stands.

Thanks everyone for participating - its been fun

To the winners  - which I'm going to say includes costanza, because really, good effort and all judging methods considered, you were practically inseparable..  These 3 were the ones at the top of the pack and I was never looking to make this about 1 best performance.

..If you want your copy of my CD - you can PM me an address to send it to.

@Andreslr6 - you may put something like "I'm the best pianist on pianostreet" in your signature, and I won't personally have a go at you for it.. and if someone else does and I see it, I will defend you at least once.

[andreslr6]

Woah!  Thanks! somewhat unexpected (for moments I thought it had been abandoned or something haha) And also congratulations to Constanza and Keypeg, and the others who participated as well! Indeed very good performances, I myself couldn't decide which one I preferred more after listening to all.

Too bad I never got to hear rach4ever's performance, I thought that was holding up the continuation of the competition.

Again, congratulations to everyone! I expect more competitions to come 

[ajspiano]

I'll also add that ALL performers did receive votes, and that apart from keypeg blitzing the tchaikovsky everyone else was only a few votes behind...  so really, well done to everyone.

I expect more competitions to come 

That would be fun indeed - however I hope someone else is willing to orchestrate it at some point since it'd be nice if I could be in one

@everyone - I'd be interested to hear what you thought about everything, and any discussion re how to make it a better 'event' for next time.. and if there is infact enough interest for a next time to be run anytime soon..?

ALSO - I'm going to now link to the results in the OP and state that voting is closed.

[andreslr6]

That would be fun indeed - however I hope someone else is willing to orchestrate it at some point since it'd be nice if I could be in one

@everyone - I'd be interested to hear what you thought about everything, and any discussion re how to make it a better 'event' for next time.. and if there is infact enough interest for a next time to be run anytime soon..?

I'm interested in both organizing one and participating again! as a suggestion, and also a way for me to be allowed to do both things, after comments like p2u's I was thinking on making 2 categories, one amateur/beginner and another one advanced/pro/whatever. Different requirements for each, the amateur/beginner can be something like this one and the advanced category should be more strict and demanding, like having 2 rounds, ask for a Bach P & F and/or a Chopin Etude, etc. something more alike to a real life competition, but at the same time keeping it as it is: a virtual competition, with no economic prizes but rather little gifts like the CD, or the signature, maybe even talk to the administrators and offer a free 1 month gold membership something like that.

Also, one that I strongly advice (specially after the little incident we had here), if there should be another competition, ask for VIDEO only, no audio. There's no need for personal info, just a user name and a youtube video.

[m1469]

Even better than video would be the requirement to perform live via Ustream.  

[kujiraya]

Some suggested standards for recording equipment and set-ups would be very helpful.

[keypeg]

Congratulations to EVERYONE who participated - This wasn't an easy thing to do (it wasn't for me).  Andreslr6, I really enjoyed your playing of both pieces, and Constanza as well.  What I liked the most about this was being in it together.  I remember in the very beginning when the first voice talked about the left hand being a problem, and each of us said "me too" and "me too".  Because piano is a lonely thing usually.

[keypeg]

Re: Equipment - Most of us are students and not professional performers, and we have varying incomes and finances.  If equipment requirements are high, some of us will not be able to participate and we won't have a choice.

I have a digital piano with internal recording, so that the piano will play back what I played into it.  I've been told that there is a cable you can get which goes from the earphone jack into the computer so that you don't have distortions.  I was thinking of getting that, but of course this doesn't give video.

My grown children gave me an iPod as a gift 2 years ago, which has a built in camera.  I sometimes perch it on a corner for short recordings since my teacher is remote, for diagnosing technique.  It's not good for music because of the sound quality, and it equalizes voices.  So if you have a soft bass and louder melody, it tries to equalize the contrast - that's no good.

I struggled with the equipment I have throughout.  The iPod recording nixed much of what was there.  My son's microphone put near the speakers was much better, but there was a buzz.  Several people tried to help me reduce the noise, but that created distortions.  It's what I have, and I wouldn't be struggling with it if I had a choice.

Money is often a barrier to musical pursuits.  Please keep in mind that what some people have is all that they can afford.

[ajspiano]

I think USstream would be awesome, however my immediate reaction to it is how do we get everyone from all over the planet to congregate at the same time and perform.

Plain video also offers the luxury of being able to record yourself multiple times and settle on your preferred version before posting. I think you'd end up with a lot more nervous performers using a live stream service.

I think USstream would dramatically increase the authenticity of recordings, but lower overall participation.

..........

Standards for recording equipment is pretty tough. -
If I went all out I could produce something pretty nice and I doubt the majority of users here would have access to that kind of thing..  At home I have microphones in the $1000+ range.. and access to actual studios due to friends being amid audio engineering degrees.

That said I honestly don't think my iPhone records that badly.. it does compress the sound a bit but its pretty good really.

[keypeg]

That said I honestly don't think my iPhone records that badly.. it does compress the sound a bit but its pretty good really.

I'm told the iPhone cameras are a bit better than iPod cameras.  I don't know how recording compares.  When I brought my iPod recording to the computer and listened to it, it was disappointing.  The $95 microphone still had those distortions, but I when I heard it, I cried.  You put everything you have into something, and then it won't come out - that is rough.  Every inch of sound means something.  (Hm, can you measure sound in inches?   )

[j_menz]

when I heard it, I cried.  You put everything you have into something, and then it won't come out - that is rough.  Every inch of sound means something.  (Hm, can you measure sound in inches?   )

Haha. I can relate. My first recording, I didn't adjust the gain on the mike, and so the sound level was just above zero. With a run through audfacity and the whole thing turned up to the max, it was almost audible - at least that there was a piano there somewhere.

I haven't recorded myself before, and one of the things I learnt out of this is that I need to do more practice with it. The process was more forgiving of some things than I expected, and less so with some others.

What I used was a Zoom Q2HD.

[ajspiano]

I'm told the iPhone cameras are a bit better than iPod cameras.  I don't know how recording compares.  When I brought my iPod recording to the computer and listened to it, it was disappointing.  The $95 microphone still had those distortions, but I when I heard it, I cried.  You put everything you have into something, and then it won't come out - that is rough.  Every inch of sound means something.  (Hm, can you measure sound in inches?   )

I remember my first attempts at recording electric guitars -

I would get something that sounded almost ok and we'd all be like "holy crap! dont touch a freaking thing. now play"

I think I like the cellphone recorders because they are EASY to produce something that is ok..  not brilliant, but ok.

By contrast, if I pull out my rode condenser mic I start having to care about placement/gain/equalisation etc.  the final product is beautiful, but it takes away from your playing focus because you have to spend time thinking about the recording.

[johnmar78]

congradualations to Keypeg and Andera, constaza and all participant. This comp was fun.

AJ, I reckon more comps should coming soon  one fixed piece is GREAT. At the moment I reckon, with working amateurs like us we missed out some people  and time is the issue. Anyway, looking forward to next one

[ajspiano]

Disclaimer: the contents of this post does not reflect what may or may not happen in any subsequent pianostreet comp that i or anyone else organises...

That aside..

I have an announcement to make. Previously I was aware that this was a possibility but for several reasons it was not made public knowledge here in the thread...

Reasons -
1.
When I was first contacted about this I did not know how many people would post performances in the end and how many votes there would be..

2.
The object of this exercise for me was not competitive but rather to facilitate a learning environment and I felt that if this had been known it may have jeopardised that.

3.
If this had been known earlier it would potentially have created reason for people to create faked recordings. And that was obviously fair concern since there was dispute over that anyway.

...........................

A very generous forum member, who has asked to remain anonymous, PM'd me early in the competition and offered to donate a decent prize.

$50 voucher for amazon.

How freaking generous hey? This person is a non-competitor (obviously) and also is someone I consider to be a valued trustworthy member of the forum... So I said OK,  but we will announce and organise it POST voting to avoid anyone trying to rig the voting over it.. Myself and the donor have discussed this today..

...And so andreslr6 will be awarded the voucher.

ADDITIONALLY

To show my appreciation for this little bonus to the competition project I have decided just now that I am going to match that contribution.

I would like to give a $25 voucher to lostinidlewonder because I sincerely appreciate his efforts on the judging front.

The remaining $25 I would like to award to costanza, provided she agrees to spend it on something piano related. I trust that marg will see to that.

....

I hope that this doesnt bother anyone as i can understand people having reservations about money being involved.. I assure you that this was not my idea and was born only out of someone elses generosity.

Best wishes everyone.

[costicina]

THANK YOUUU!!!!!
THe idea of this  competition as a 'learning experience' has proven to be absolutely great: we had fun, we tried to do our best, we felt 'companions' and friends in this adventure, much more than competitors. A  special thanks, with all my heart, to AJ, the ideator, and to Lostinidlewonder, who has been such a fair and competent judge.  ANd of course, thank you for the generous donor of the money prize!

[49410enrique]

..., provided she agrees to spend it on something piano related. I trust that marg will see to that....

*wonders if a pretty dress (performance accessory?) or mozart chocolates (piano snacks) will count...

congrats to the winners, and all who participated!

[andreslr6]

Thanks again! and thank you to that anonymous donor! that was really an unexpected nice surprise. Congratulations again to everyone and hope to see you again in the next competitions 

[keypeg]

@everyone - I'd be interested to hear what you thought about everything.

As you know, I liked the idea of everyone exploring a single piece, and all the things we could learn and discover from it on all fronts.  I also liked the idea of different people posting their performances of the piece, and then we could compare and discover in the same way.  The original goal was also get people to participate.  Those the least likely to post their recordings are people who have no experience in it.  There are younger students who aren't in the competition circuit and whose teachers may not even do (a lot of) recitals.  There are also a lot of older people like myself who are essentially in isolation.  Some may have had lessons when young, with traumatic experiences related to them.  The cameraderie - exploring idea was very appealing.

It was made into a competition.  Unexpectedly this did have a positive effect.  I had been getting over timidity about posting - people were telling me "Why don't you post something?" and I was seriously thinking of it when this came up - the competition factor made it a bigger hurdle, and overcoming such a bigger hurdle boosted confidence.  In that respect, it wouldn't have mattered how I did.  Doing it was the thing.

For most of the time this cameraderie, exchange of ideas, and openness stayed even once it was a "competition".  I had hoped the second part would happen: that once the performances were posted, we could talk about this or that thing that was done, why choices were made, what difficulties we encountered - did we have the same ones?  This was actually the part that I was looking forward to.  But it didn't materialize.  We waited for an "assessment", and as soon as the official assessment was in, we didn't have ideas or impressions of our own.  We only discussed points of the assessment.  No exploring.

Two things bothered me.  The one was with LittleTunes, though we all rallied around her, because there IS music and substance in that playing.  I don't know if this thing happened because it was a competition - was competition a factor?  I do know that when my son's school played at competitions in ensembles, quartets etc., adjudicators made comments, and the actual teacher did not always agree with them.  This also happens in exams - so no, this wasn't a competition thing.

The other was obviously the accusations levied against me.  Would that have been there if it had not been a competition.   Do competitions bring about competitiveness, suspicion, distrust, an idea that the other person is a sneaky enemy?  I almost didn't enter, because my playing can still feel private and personal.   I have played in recitals when I studied another instrument, and I've sung here and there, but these are not recorded - your voice vanishes at the last note.  But to have my "voice" preserved - that bothered.  To then read that what I put my all into was not my voice, was very hurtful.

See I have an overall view in life of kinship.  Native Americans have a saying which I hope I can remember: "mitakuye ayasin" (?) which means "We are all one."  School systems use competitions as  means of getting kids to strive, by dividing them against each other, and this has some harm to it.  I just naturally don't like this.  So my feelings about competitions remain mixed, and are just a little bit less negative than they were.

[outin]

That would be fun indeed - however I hope someone else is willing to orchestrate it at some point since it'd be nice if I could be in one

Just choose some Bach for the set piece and I will volunteer, since I am certainly not participating 

[dcstudio]

wow--that was an exciting thread.  lol.   I am still having trouble believing all the drama that occurred.  Guess there's no such thing as a friendly piano competition.  Congrats to all.  Keypeg you held up wonderfully!! WOW. 

[ajspiano]

Just choose some Bach for the set piece and I will volunteer, since I am certainly not participating 

What if its invention 13?

Generally regarding repertoire though - while I think it would be cool to have a more advanced competition as andreslr6 has suggested - I do think that would isolate people and lower participation..

Thing is, there will be a lot of people who just can not put together something like a chopin etude with only a month or twos notice. - and for me personally I would probably not want to do that either since it would take a fair bit of my attention (because I wouldnt want to post something less that what I would consider to be REALLY good) and what limited practice I'm getting at the moment I'm putting toward the concerto (as per rach 3 thread)...  So really, for me it would have to be one I can already play close to well enough..

^I also think that kind of repertoire will much more severely "separate the men from the boys" than lower grade material will. I like that the less experienced were able to compete with the more experienced here...  but at the same time I can understand how some people would prefer a more significant challenge, so its really a difficult balance. I guess further attempts will still be somewhat experimental.

....

I share a lot of keypegs thoughts - I'm pretty big on using the forum as a shared learning resource - which I've tried to do before with other threads..  you can dig up the composition thread (where we all wrote minuets) for example. So my ideas are always going to relate back to increased participation and discussion.

There was definitely less discussion than I'd hoped for here - but thats just life I guess. I expected that if there was to be good discussion I would have to fuel it myself to a degree. Which I started out trying to do but unfortunately failed to keep it up. I think the problem was that I wasnt personally excited about learning the piece..  when I am I tend to ramble on with a lot of thoughts..  as in my chopin 10/1 polishing thread.. So perhaps if I do it again I'll try to pick something that I REALLY like that also works as a suitable piece for the event and everyone else.

I suspect that its easier for me to talk about ideas relating to the piece and its learning because its something I do regularly in teaching - where as most students are perhaps used to being on the recieving end of advice/thoughts, rather than giving it..  Without this being a complaint to anyone who didnt comment much about learning the piece (and some of you did share some great thoughts), - thats a mould that needs to be broken to create a better 'event' learning wise. Thoughts don't have to be world class, the point is to clarify ideas through conversation..  using the other 'competitors' as a sounding board to figure out better or different solutions to the pieces problems...

..but ofcourse I guess thats not what everyone was necessarily looking for in being involved here.

[pts1]

Just to put my 2 cents in as an observer, I think if you go down the road of setting standards about recordings, this will defeat the intent of the "friendly competition".

I think people should be able to use whatever means they have to participate in terms of recording.

The really nice thing about this site is it has all levels of accomplishment participating and its usually done in a spirit of friendship and as equals. To have a "competition" really eats away at this IMO.

We've already seen what was brought out in one participant  who accused another of "stealing" her recording, altering it and presenting it as her own. (never mind the impossibility of this since his was submitted before hers. And why would anyone want to claim her playing as their own anyway?)

The accuser also handed it very poorly, and it would have been much better to handle it in private messages with AJ if she REALLY thought there was an issue. As it stands, the only thing that was accomplished was to cause upset and put the accuser at the center of attention, which I suspect was her true motivation in the first place.

For me, as an observer, this tainted the whole proceeding with an ugly smear.

So to have standards and so forth will undermine the intent of the thing with more of the kind of ugliness we recently saw.

I think of it more as a "talent show" in which one "shows" one's talent.  

And at the end, some one can be awarded a prize, be it acknowledgement or something more material.

This may just be semantics, but "friendly competition" is an oxymoron really and represents a slippery slope towards an elite kind of nastiness and one-upmanship.

So I'd do everything I could to maintain the simple participatory function of it which is to share, build friendhips and learn new things.

[outin]

What if its invention 13?

Especially then! 

[lostinidlewonder]

A very generous forum member, who has asked to remain anonymous, PM'd me early in the competition and offered to donate a decent prize.

$50 voucher for amazon.

That is really a generous donation, good on that individual!! I hope when the next competition is organised there is some time to look for donations, this has certainly made me want to contribute too.

...And so andreslr6 will be awarded the voucher.

*Claps very loudly* well deserved andresir6!!

ADDITIONALLY

To show my appreciation for this little bonus to the competition project I have decided just now that I am going to match that contribution.

Wow!

I would like to give a $25 voucher to lostinidlewonder because I sincerely appreciate his efforts on the judging front.

Oh golly gosh! I was more than happy to donate my time, it was a great learning experience for myself and I really enjoyed it. This competition was relaxed and friendly. So accepting this wonderful thank you feels like I'm getting waaay too much, but I am very gracious, thanks ajspiano.

The remaining $25 I would like to award to costanza, provided she agrees to spend it on something piano related. I trust that marg will see to that.

*Claps very loudly* again, good work costanza!!!

I hope that this doesnt bother anyone as i can understand people having reservations about money being involved.. I assure you that this was not my idea and was born only out of someone elses generosity.

I think the donations are really touching, even your offer of posting a CD at the start of the competition to the winners. You have started something really promising here and I can speak for myself that the next competition will have my support for prizes and judging (I will encourage teachers at my school to judge it next time).

[keypeg]

m1469, the last message was two words - "thank you".

[m1469]

I have never before in my life listened to somebody else's recording and been left with the impression that it was my own under somebody else's name, nor can I imagine why somebody would do that in these circumstances.  I don't apologize for that impression, as by all means I would of course prefer not to have it and would obviously not wish to create it.  I realize you have all, for your own reasons, wanted to not let it rest.  But no, I do not apologize for how I feel and for what I hear.  As I said before in this thread, and as I told keypeg in private, if I am wrong, which I clearly hope I am, then I do apologize.   I do not feel I owe anybody anything and as I told keypeg clearly, there is not anything more I have to say about it.  In my opinion, if you all cannot let it rest, then you obviously have some hope of achieving something beyond there having been a mistake in my listening, and whatever that is, I hope it's fulfilling for you.

I do not feel this was a competition, and I went into it believing it was something it was not, so my thoughts and feelings have nothing to do with whatever people are claiming is related to competition.  The experience in this thread has seemingly ruined a very unfortunately large amount for me, and while you have made it very clear that this is not your concern, perhaps you can consider whether you have truly achieved what you would have liked to have achieved by your actions.  Whether you really know me at all, and whether you are actually in a position to determine how I might react.  In fact, I believe you owe me an apology and this thread a public explanation.  And, you know who I mean.

[p2u_]

@everyone - I'd be interested to hear what you thought about everything, and any discussion re how to make it a better 'event' for next time..

For practical reasons, I think it would be a good idea to determine the md5 hash (unique authentication number) of the files you get. Even if a file is actually renamed by accident, the hash stays the same (it determines the content, not the name) and you can track down the true owner by it. I suggest when someone sends you a file, you determine the hash and send the number + the name of the file to the owner of the file as a reply. It would be even better if the participants did this themselves and sent YOU the hash, together with the file.

Here is a small utility by Robin Keir that does that: Hash.exe, packed in a zip file. The source is legitimate. The maker of the program is an authority in the computer security world. No install needed. You just unpack and launch the program, "browse" and double-click on the file you want to determine the hash for. This will give you three types of hashes for one and the same file. You can highlight + copy the hash number(s) from the program's interface and paste it/them to wherever you like. I repeat: as long as the content itself is not modified in any way, this hash will stay the same.

Paul

[p2u_]

I have never before in my life listened to somebody else's recording and been left with the impression that it was my own under somebody else's name, nor can I imagine why somebody would do that in these circumstances.

Dear m1469,

I just applied a check on the files to investigate if they were indeed identical. Here are the results:

Code: [Select]

m1469's File: C:\Users\p2u\Desktop\Tchaikovsky.mp3
Size: 2285160 bytes
Modified: 24 January 2013, 13:48:15
MD5: 91245B201F099C2795688F0D443D59D1
SHA1: D0ACAE9702D7479518C6D8AB3ED39113ACFC357C
CRC32: 12411DC1

Code: [Select]

Keypeg's File: C:\Users\p2u\Desktop\sweet-dreams-fin2.mp3
Size: 3332806 bytes
Modified: 24 January 2013, 13:51:14
MD5: 3BE0750C114E2965FF1033D69DDF8008
SHA1: D8000B21508B4C6E37A9E2335E81F02F26249A37
CRC32: F04E093D
Even if I rename your file into "sweet-dreams-fin2.mp3" (the name keypeg gave to his/her file), the hashes don't change. Conclusion: those are really different files.
P.S.: The audio properties are also technically too different to make it one and the same file, but I guess it would go really too far to give the details on a forum like this...

EDIT: I also compared keypegs' first file from dropbox with the second one from boxcloud:

Code: [Select]

File: C:\Users\p2u\Desktop\sweet-dreams-fin2.mp3
Size: 3332806 bytes
Modified: 24 January 2013, 14:49:44
MD5: 3BE0750C114E2965FF1033D69DDF8008
SHA1: D8000B21508B4C6E37A9E2335E81F02F26249A37
CRC32: F04E093DAs you can see, the hashes with the final version by keypeg's link coincide. Had it been filtered or remixed, the hashes would be different because those procedures would modify the file itself. I really hope you take my word for it.

Paul

[unholeee]

md5 would prove useless as the audio properties are edited (the data itself) the hash will change. you could add a second of silence and it would change.

[p2u_]

md5 would prove useless as the audio properties are edited (the data itself) the hash will change. you could add a second of silence and it would change.

I am not sure I understand your statement about "MD5 being useless".
1) Keypeg's first file was submitted earlier than m1469's file.
2) Besides, the MD5 in both files submitted by Keypeg coincide.

Would you agree that this is sufficient evidence that m1469's file cannot have been filtered/modified?

Paul