Bach again...

[j_menz]

And in general I don't get it how people can use the pedal at all in Baroque. I have tried but it always sounds wrong to me...

If you're sight reading through a fugue, trust me: the pedal is your friend - historical authenticity sacrificed on the altar of practicality.

[outin]

If you're sight reading through a fugue, trust me: the pedal is your friend - historical authenticity sacrificed on the altar of practicality.

It's not about authentity at all I just hate the way it sounds when I try to apply the pedal

And the day I am sight reading a fugue will be the day cows actually start flying...

[j_menz]

And the day I am sight reading a fugue will be the day cows actually start flying...

I see it now:



Actually, I noticed you said you could now hear two voices at once, that would indicate that with practice you should be able to do more. That is a basic requirement for sight-reading fugues.   Your "stray note" problem may be an issue, but I suspect it will resolve itself in time. So I suspect your neighbours are going to need an industrial strength umbrella in no time.

[outin]

Actually, I noticed you said you could now hear two voices at once, that would indicate that with practice you should be able to do more. That is a basic requirement for sight-reading fugues.   Your "stray note" problem may be an issue, but I suspect it will resolve itself in time.

What do you mean by "stray note" problem? I am not sure which one of my numerous problems you are referring to?

So I suspect your neighbours are going to need an industrial strength umbrella in no time.

I accidently found myself in a piano shop yesterday and my plans on getting the grand became more solid again. Poor neighbours...

[j_menz]

What do you mean by "stray note" problem? I am not sure which one of my numerous problems you are referring to?

Seeing notes on the page that aren't there, are in the wrong place or which have gone off for a coffee somewhere.

[outin]

Seeing notes on the page that aren't there, are in the wrong place or which have gone off for a coffee somewhere.

Oh that 

Yeah, the reading part really sucks. I thought "stray notes" would refer to playing wrong notes. Which is not so much a problem with me. I play the right note but with wrong finger, notice it one or two notes later, get confused and everything falls apart. When I am sight reading this is not a problem, because there aren't "right" fingers yet, so I just adjust. If I could get the reading part right, I think I would much prefer sight reading to playing from memory.

[chopin2015]

What do you mean by "stray note" problem? I am not sure which one of my numerous problems you are referring to?

I accidently found myself in a piano shop yesterday and my plans on getting the grand became more solid again. Poor neighbours...

Do it! Screw the neighbors! You gotta live too! Hehe. Do u live in an apt or a house?

[outin]

Do it! Screw the neighbors! You gotta live too! Hehe. Do u live in an apt or a house?

I live in an apartment with neighbours upstairs and to one side, no-one lives downstairs. Yes, I am definitely going to do it sooner or later. Just too busy with work stuff to really get into the project.

[chopin2015]

Awesome! Freakin do it!

[asuhayda]

The first Bach piece I ever played was Invention #1... hated it.  I played a couple other Inventions, more or less hated them too.

Then for my college audition I played French Suite #5 - Gigue .. loved it 

So, I started looking at more of the Suites.. English Suites, Partitas, French Suites.. eventually I played a bunch of the WTC. Now, I don't want to play anything else but Bach.. I even like the Inventions that I hated when I was younger.

Weird.. but I learned to appreciate Bach's music and began to understand its purity as well as it's structual soundness.  It's really the only type of music that I feel satisfied playing.  I feel like the sound I produce is (close to) correct.  I don't feel that way with Beethoven or Rachmaninoff or Mozart.

Only thing is, it takes me like 10x longer to learn a single piece by Bach! Which tests my patience, but pays off in the end.

Happy fugue-ing!

[outin]

Only thing is, it takes me like 10x longer to learn a single piece by Bach! Which tests my patience,

It definitely does!

but pays off in the end.

The jury is still out on this one 

[outin]

I really hate to say this but...

practicing this piece has completely changed my right hand 4th and 5th fingers...the tension is gone and they work like never before   

[j_menz]

I really hate to say this but...

practicing this piece has completely changed my right hand 4th and 5th fingers...the tension is gone and they work like never before   

Hahaha. Why do you hate to say it?

I'm quite happy to point out:

I told you Bach was good for you.

[outin]

Hahaha. Why do you hate to say it?

Because you guys will get smug for being right about everything 

[ajspiano]

Because you guys will get smug for being right about everything 

I'd just like to point out that I deliberately didn't post "i told you so" here. I wanted to, but I didnt.

[outin]

I'd just like to point out that I deliberately didn't post "i told you so" here. I wanted to, but I didnt.

But I could hear you thinking it all the way up here 

[ajspiano]

But I could hear you thinking it all the way up here 

Move to australia. I would love a telepathic student.

[j_menz]

Move to australia. I would love a telepathic student.

Since she can hear you anyway, why is the move required. Just easier to send the bill and bank the cheque?

[ajspiano]

Since she can hear you anyway, why is the move required. Just easier to send the bill and bank the cheque?

Unfortunately, since I'm not telepathic, -  in order to think the right thing I'd need to see/hear her playing in person.

[outin]

Move to australia. I would love a telepathic student.

Are you sure?

Student playing the best she can...
Teacher: That was better but maybe you should...
Student: Why do you say that when you are actually thinking that I am completely unmusical and will never be able to play anything properly and if you didn't need the cash you would tell me to start knitting instead 

[j_menz]

Student: Why do you say that when you are actually thinking that I am completely unmusical and will never be able to play anything properly and if you didn't need the cash you would tell me to start knitting instead 

I doubt that that applies to you, but in any case I suspect that where some teachers would think that at times, provided you were actually trying,  AJs thought process would run more along the lines of:

Yeah! A challenge! 

[chopin2015]

Outin, i just found a baby grand for 700 dollars. But....i dont have a place to put it. Im trying to move my bed but idk where to put it either!!! Why must life be so unbalanced? How is your piano search going? Btw, i want to hoard pianos...

[ajspiano]

lol - j_menz is right..  I've never once thought that about anyone.

Frankly the desire to play the piano is usually a big suggestion that a student has got sufficient music in them.

[outin]

Outin, i just found a baby grand for 700 dollars. But....i dont have a place to put it. Im trying to move my bed but idk where to put it either!!! Why must life be so unbalanced? How is your piano search going? Btw, i want to hoard pianos...

Why do you need a bed? Just close the lid and put a madress on the piano

I am not really seaching since I know already what I want but I don't have the time or energy to organize the thing right now...

I too want to have at least 3 different kind of pianos 

[chopin2015]

I would get rid of my bed to have another piano to sleep under...

[outin]

lol - j_menz is right..  I've never once thought that about anyone.

Of course that isn't the worst case scenario...

Student playing intensely...
Teacher thinking: mmm....that's a pretty short dress...  
Student: Excuse me!!

Disclaimer: Everyone involved are adults

[ajspiano]

I'm a professional. Even in my secret thoughts..  and none of my adult female students wear short skirts to lessons.. is that the norm in finland?

[outin]

I'm a professional. Even in my secret thoughts.. 

I have no doubt, no offense meant. Just a hypothetical demonstration of the dangers of dealing with telepaths.

and none of my adult female students wear short skirts to lessons..

Maybe you just haven't found the next Yuja Wang yet?

is that the norm in finland?

It seems all norms have flown away during the last decase or so. Went to a female doctor recently. She was 60 something...had a short white coat and a skirt even shorter. When she sat down I had a hard time staying serious...

[ajspiano]

I have no doubt, no offense meant. Just a hypothetical demonstration of the dangers of dealing with telepaths.

None taken. Though to be honest ive had a that problem in reverse a few times..  with highschool girls who had an obvious crush on me (no telepathy required).

Maybe you just haven't found the next Yuja Wang yet?

No definitely not. I do have a 5 year old that i have high hopes for though. I haven't pushed him much yet but he's VERY motivated and every week he comes back having learnt more than I left him to do at lesson... I was quite impressed last lesson when during our little improv session he started playing double 3rds in his RH too.

Still, the 'him' part and the fact that he's not Scottish means i'm not expecting any skirts.

It seems all norms have flown away during the last decase or so. Went to a female doctor recently. She was 60 something...had a short white coat and a skirt even shorter. When she sat down I had a hard time staying serious...

Oh wow. Well at least she was confident despite her age...

[outin]

... with highschool girls who had an obvious crush on me (no telepathy required).

Isn't it a pain to be so handsome...

[ajspiano]

Isn't it a pain to be so handsome...

Its certainly a different kind of challenge trying to teach someone who's communicative ability has been reduced to giggling.

[outin]

Its certainly a different kind of challenge trying to teach someone who's communicative ability has been reduced to giggling.

You could have asked them to giggle one of the voices in the Bach fugues...that might have been useful 

[ajspiano]

You could have asked them to giggle one of the voices in the Bach fugues...that might have been useful 

It may have been an effective way to make me giggle just as much..  which I doubt would improve the quality of the lesson at all.

[outin]

It may have been an effective way to make me giggle just as much..  which I doubt would improve the quality of the lesson at all.

Seriously....I am a bit curious about how did you resolve the situation? Did you just ignore it and let them grow out of it after a while? I find these one sided attractions very uncomfortable. Had it happen a couple of times in a work related situation and mine is not nearly as "personal" as teaching piano can be.

[ajspiano]

Seriously....I am a bit curious about how did you resolve the situation? Did you just ignore it and let them grow out of it after a while? I find these one sided attractions very uncomfortable. Had it happen a couple of times in a work related situation and mine is not nearly as "personal" as teaching piano can be.

Well in regard the the situation I'm thinking of... I was young, and used to it. Doesn't that sound arrogant? Haha..  seriously though, these 2 girls were 15 at the time, they had lessons directly after one another and were best friends - I was barely 18..  they had been at the same highschool as me and knew/percieved me to be one of the "cool" senior school guys that was in a band.

I was probably exaggerating a little saying all they could do was giggle.. but they obviously had a thing.. I just ignored it and got on with the lesson, they always had the thing as long as I was their teacher but their confidence talking to me got better.

Not sure what it'd be like if they same thing happened now.. That'd be really awkward by comparison with me being older now.. and engaged. 

[chopin2015]

There was a time when I was like 17, and my guitar teacher was either 22 or 23....hes fantastic. Taught me everything I know. He was already married and now has a awesone son (not to mention his wife is extremely beautiful) so nothin wierd there...his friend was suuuuuper fine. He was a drum teacher who had a girlfriend and got married to her...i remember taking lessons on drums...in flip flops, eyes redder than the devils butt cheeck. I didnt last long there and just ignored all hormonal rage because its really awkward when youre attracted to someone and its soooo wroooooong! Haha
 And then teachers in college....*bites lip off*  older men rock...your time is still to come, aj. When youre in your 30s ...yeah, thats awesome. Lol

[outin]

Back on the invention...Technically it has gotten pretty good, can play quite fast and sounds nice...for a while...

BUT as for getting through the piece (or any piece really)...I am seriously getting to wonder if it was a bad idea to try to learn the piano at all...I can play none of my pieces no matter how well rehearsed. I play HS, play small sections, start from different parts and everything else that is usually recommend. Yesterday I even memorized the notes away from the piano which I never do because it makes my brain hurt.

I can see where the problem is, but have no tools to get around it.

It's all in my mind...Kind of a mental block. I just don't trust my memory anymore after it failing constantly. So all the time when I play I worry about the coming memory lapse. The only way I can get through the piece is to play so fast that there's no time to get worried. Playing fast is risky though, I get finger slips and my vigilant fingers also tend to replace each other without permission no matter how many times I have practiced with the same fingering. And when something like this happens I get distracted again.

I just cannot keep my head together, it splits into two while playing. The other part is thinking/worrying about things not relevant to the piece which takes a lot of brain power away from the playing and makes it impossible to concentrate on the music. It feels like when I play my mind keeps filling with the notes and at one point it just has to reset and shuts down. The more notes the sooner it happens. So if the piece is slow I might get to the latter half, but if it's fast I might only get through a few bars. So I kind of play on the edge all the time, if I am lucky I might not mess up. And relying on luck just makes me worry more.

I would seriously need that Rach vodka...alcohol has always helped me concentrate is small portions, but unfortunately my drinking days are over...My stomach cannot handle even a tiny bit.

Oh well...as hopeless as I am today is my lesson so I just have to deal with it...

[chopin2015]

No, you are just afraid if mistakes and dont know how to play through them. Practice recording yourself.  You'll be more aware of where and what your mistakes are etc.

[outin]

No, you are just afraid if mistakes and dont know how to play through them. Practice recording yourself.  You'll be more aware of where and what your mistakes are etc.

Oh, I am always aware of my mistakes the second I make them, sometimes even before...unfortunately. My brain works a bit too fast that way...You are right, I am unable to play through the mistakes, my teacher has tried to make me but so far hasn't had much success. I try but if I don't let my mind analyze what happened it goes completely blank. If I didn't notice I could just go on... I do recording quite often but don't see how it would help this issue.

But right now I think I just need a break, too much work and too little time to practice...weekly lessons have become really stressfull... I still enjoy sitting down practicing  the difficult spots, solving technical problems and learning to make music out of the notes on the sheet. I just dislike playing pieces even when I practice...probably not how it usually is. The lessons are great when we work on specific issues but when I am supposed to play I feel unwilling and forced and I don't do well when I am forced to do something. Usually I wouldn't even do it but it's kind of hard to refuse to play your piece to the teacher since it's kind of the idea of the lessons. I think this is why I am so stressed also at home on weekends, trying to learn and memorize the piece faster than I really can to get through playing it on the next lesson which is always too soon...

[hfmadopter]

But right now I think I just need a break, too much work and too little time to practice...weekly lessons have become really stressfull... I still enjoy sitting down practicing  the difficult spots, solving technical problems and learning to make music out of the notes on the sheet. I just dislike playing pieces even when I practice...probably not how it usually is.

This part seems a bit unusual, where you don't like to play the pieces. Do you really like the music you are doing ? If you don't really really like the piece I could see you feeling the way you are. Add the outside stress and no release, it's a lose lose situation. A single glass of cabernet or even sometimes tea, coffee kick back look up a few things of interest online, have a small snack and just a short time to unwind after work works for me. Also as crazy as it may sound, excercise helps a lot. In the summer I bike ride, in the winter I have my bike on an excerciser stand in my studio. Work up a good sweat, have a shower, then practice. Break this mind set at any rate.  You might need look at a different kind of music for a while.

I have to go up a big hill to get to my work, over the top and half mile more on the left is the place. At the end of my day when I leave, I turn right obviously and go down that hill, before I get to the bottom of the hill ? There is no more work, my mind is now shifted on to what I will do next. I had a boss years ago who lived off Cape, so that means going over a rather large bridge. He used to say there is an invisible gate on that bridge, when he crosses the bridge the gate closes behind him and he was then removed from work totally.

[outin]

This part seems a bit unusual, where you don't like to play the pieces. Do you really like the music you are doing ? If you don't really really like the piece I could see you feeling the way you are. Add the outside stress and no release, it's a lose lose situation. A single glass of cabernet or even sometimes tea, coffee kick back look up a few things of interest online, have a small snack and just a short time to unwind after work works for me. Also as crazy as it may sound, excercise helps a lot. In the summer I bike ride, in the winter I have my bike on an excerciser stand in my studio. Work up a good sweat, have a shower, then practice. Break this mind set at any rate.  You might need look at a different kind of music for a while.

I have to go up a big hill to get to my work, over the top and half mile more on the left is the place. At the end of my day when I leave, I turn right obviously and go down that hill, before I get to the bottom of the hill ? There is no more work, my mind is now shifted on to what I will do next. I had a boss years ago who lived off Cape, so that means going over a rather large bridge. He used to say there is an invisible gate on that bridge, when he crosses the bridge the gate closes behind him and he was then removed from work totally.

I do like the music (apart from the Bach of course), that is not the issue. I just don’t like playing a piece when I am not up to it really. When it comes to work, I do not bring work home, but I am mentally exhausted after working non-stop for 12 hours or so (hardly have time for lunch these days and it’s all brain work).

I certainly do not exercise enough, that’s for sure, but I never will, I hate it. I cycle or walk to work when possible.

I sent a message to my teacher today explaining that I need to slow down a bit, so maybe I won’t feel quite as pressured over my lessons. And I do have a week’s break from lessons now due to school holidays.

[outin]

I have spent about 5 weeks on this piece now. I have tried every kind of memorization technique with it and it has actually helped me to get to the source of my troubles. It's not that I cannot memorize. It is the remembering/retrieving information  part that does not work. My head is like a Windows computer: The hard drive is functioning and the data is stored there, but the OS just keeps crashing. How do you fix the OS in your brain?

The crashing seems to be connected to the need to use my hands and think at the same time. My working memory seems to disappear  when my hands are at action. If I just close my eyes and think about the music and playing, I can remember the notes and the keys to play, see everything in my head clearly, but when I actually start playing it all disappears. So I have to rely on muscle memory only and even if I may gradually be able to go into some thinking, sooner or later the OS crashes and I'm back to the muscle memory. And I seem to have a rather weak muscle memory as well. Or maybe it is the weakness of the muscle memory that strains the OS so much it crashes?

Playing slow pieces is more manageable because the crashes are usually so short that I'm often able to recover before the rhythm of the piece is completely ruined. But playing fast pieces is impossible unless I manage to avoid the crash. The best I can do is about a half page before it happens, unless there are breaks in the piece where I can kind of reset on my own. And this piece has none of those...

[chopin2015]

So play much slower when you first sit down to play the piece. then play it faster, then sliw down again if you must. Play slower through parts where you make mistakes.

[outin]

So play much slower when you first sit down to play the piece. then play it faster, then sliw down again if you must. Play slower through parts where you make mistakes.

Thanks, I'll try that... I would usually do the other way round, play fast once to see how it goes and then start slow practice/HS/whatever.

It's not so much about making mistakes anymore, they usually are just random slips of fingers or badly articulated sloppy notes... I often do not even make any mistake, my mind just goes blank for a split second and I do not know what to do next. If I am lucky it happens in a spot where it's easy to recover, but it can happen anywhere. On a really bad day it may happen already in the first measure

[outin]

So I just had a little morning practice. Only practiced 1/4 of the piece today. Played slowly once, not too bad, knew what to play. Tried the second time still slowly...got blanked twice...3rd time got blanked again twice, but in different spots. After that I couldn't even get through the first 2 measures, simply had no idea what to play, could not retrieve any memory of the piece from my head....this is what usually happens.

Had some coffee and went back to the piano. Played fast once, fine...managed to play fast 3 times before I started having small memory breaks. Decided to stop while winning

I wonder if taking such small breaks in practice more often would be helpful. The problem is just that I am so damn lazy to get up from the piano...

EDIT: Or maybe not...went to the piano 3rd time, and now it was like the piece had completely vanished from my head. Couldn't play it at all...After really struggling for a few times I was able to barely get through once in moderate speed and decided to stop. Tried the nocturne and couldn't remember most of the first page on it either and I had no trouble with it yesterday. Decided it's one of those days, better go to work instead...

I wonder if Bach is actually causing brain damage...  

EDIT2:
Had one more little practice session. This time started with the Nocturne and had no memory problems at all in the part that I had learned. OT: I also see much improvement on my RH octaves, which makes me very happy. I’m now able to play deeper to the keys as long as they are slow.

I was able to get 15 minutes of focused practice with both pieces before I really had to leave for work. So either it was the raising coffeine level in my system or my theory is right: I should never start my sessions with Bach since it is not good for my brain. I agree that it is good for the fingers, but obviously is dangerous for the brain if not taken on at the right time 

Also this might explain why my lessons sometimes are a complete disaster…I don’t get to “start again” until I get into the right mind setting...

[j_menz]

Had some coffee and went back to the piano.

You tried to play before your morning coffee? 

[outin]

You tried to play before your morning coffee? 

OK, I admit that wasn't very smart...

I guess I need to make another scientific experiment...how many cups is required for an invention...

[chopin2015]

Increase as you go...

[ajspiano]

OK, I admit that wasn't very smart...

I guess I need to make another scientific experiment...how many cups is required for an invention...

I generally dont look at the rach without 4 at least... So for an invention i guess 7 to 9 depending on how much sleep you got.

[chopin2015]

Try turkish style...ull need 2 tbl spoons