Bach again...

[outin]

I have never been into Bach. In the beginning I tried a couple of inventions...hated them...the music that is. I just can't make myself learn something I do not want to hear. Since I do have to listen to my playing a lot and the better the playing becomes the more I suffer from listening to it...

Then I tried the pieces in the notebook for AMB...didn't like them at all. The little preludes...same thing.

Tried to listen to WTC...don't like any of them.

So thanks to Enrique I listened to the sinfonias...and I actually like a few of them! 

So now to my question: Would it be "wrong" to just start with one of those (meaning actually properly learn a Bach piece)? Since I now happen to have the sheet music from Henle and I would need to pick some new piece for my next lesson...I seem to be in a baroque phase now, maybe because of the winter, not in a mood to start romantic compositions at all. And I am getting tired of struggling with my (lack of) reach all the time 

From the Baroque era I have only really tried a bit of Telemann (I love some of his fantasies, but I am so slow to learn the fingerings that I always give up), Purcell and Scarlatti of course. I think my teacher would welcome something else for a change.

Any opinions welcome 

[j_menz]

There is no right or wrong place to start, just easier and more challenging ones. Learning something you like is always easier and much more satisfying than something you hate. So if there are sinfonias you like, start with those. You may face more challenges than if you started with a two part invention, but you'll like the music enough to persevere, and the very fact that you like what you are trying to achieve will help you achieve it.

Oh, and welcome to the club. 

[iansinclair]

Got to admit I'm not too keen on Bach for piano/harpsichord either -- which is slightly weird, since I really do like a lot of the organ literature.  But you might find some of the French suites entertaining enough to work on...

[49410enrique]

im so happy you've discovered some new music you like!

i agree, i would not neccessarily say that the 2 voice inventions are required pre-requisites to the sinfonias (which i agree with you, i tend to love these a lot, though i like bach and dig the much more popular inventions and wtc, these sinfonias i feel  really are special! ).

i say definately go with what you connect with the most. the good thing about these (also the bad thing!), is that even when you get into something really 'difficult' they are all very short! so in terms of total technical demands placed on you (even if the level of writting is very advanced at times), are relatively kept in check by the fact that for  each one, there just isn't that much total music to navigate (which again i think is the drawback, i soooo want some of these pieces to go on and on and on....).

have you had a listen to no 15 in b minor? it is an impressive piece! but not nearly as difficult  to learn as many of the others (it will take a while perhaps to get the tempo up with those fast arpegios, it does have a lot of energy, but the melodic lines and 3 voice writing is not as difficult to manage which will make the initial learning and reading much more manageable, think more of a back and fourth conversation , question, answer, etc. vs fugue like where all three with the subject and development of the theme at the same time).

this one holds a special place in my heart, it is the first bach work i seriously studied and performed (for a jury) with my previous piano professor (it was in fact the first work i ever studied with him).

i like this one the best of all th yt uploads (gould is up but i actually it's too quick), schiff does it nicely!
this will actually be my next sinfonia (an overdue revisit) when i work back around to working through them next year.

i always thought this was his 'shredder',  sinfonia!

[ajspiano]

^agreed - No. 15 is the bomb-diggity. Very exciting.

I have listened to that thing on repeat for 2+ hours and not got bored, more than once.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You should go ahead with the Sinfonias, but make sure you don't turn to the dark side.

[outin]

Thanks all 

I am sure I won't let it go any further, just do a couple of these maybe and then stop

Number 15 is supposed to be the easiest (at least if we believe the gradings on this site). But it's not really to my taste. The ones that I prefer are 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13,   Number 9 really is the best of these, IMO.  But maybe I'll just butcher one of the others first

Note reading still is my pitfall so maybe I should choose one with less sharps/flats 

[j_menz]

I am sure I won't let it go any further, just do a couple of these maybe and then stop

The starting out words of every addict in history. 

[ajspiano]

Be vigilant - sinfonias can lead to inventions.

Every sinfonia is doing you damage. Call quitline on 555-4635 Now.

[outin]

Be vigilant - sinfonias can lead to inventions.

Every sinfonia is doing you damage. Call quitline on 555-4635 Now.

It's just what the "establishment" is trying to let us believe...brainwashing!

A little trial won't hurt me...I can always quit! Gateway theories are all just BS!

[outin]

Got to admit I'm not too keen on Bach for piano/harpsichord either -- which is slightly weird, since I really do like a lot of the organ literature.  But you might find some of the French suites entertaining enough to work on...

I think I'd better stay away from pieces that PS has graded 8 something at this point...

[ajspiano]

I think I'd better stay away from pieces that PS has graded 8 something at this point...

They contain as many as 8 individual dance movements.. and while collectively they may be difficult for you, there will be individual movements that are within your reach.

[outin]

They contain as many as 8 individual dance movements.. and while collectively they may be difficult for you, there will be individual movements that are within your reach.

That's true... but usually I am not into dance type pieces at all...with the exception of the Chopin polonaises...stuff like menuets tend to irritate me 

[ajspiano]

Suite No. 6 in E major, BWV 817
Allemande
Courante
Sarabande
Gavotte
Polonaise
Bourrée
Menuet
Gigue

[outin]

Suite No. 6 in E major, BWV 817
Allemande
Courante
Sarabande
Gavotte
Polonaise
Bourrée
Menuet
Gigue

You people are good 

But I need to go to work now so this has to wait...

[j_menz]

You people are good 

Think of us as your Bach dealer. 

[elenka]

That's strange that you don't like any Bach's P&F from WTC,it's true that you may not like all of them, exspecially fugues are not easy to understand at first listening. The I and II from book I are not so bad... I studied from book I n° 14 in F# minor and from book II n° 12 and 18 these three are my favourite I got through the I keyboard partita in B flat and I found it very interesting to play Sinfonias are good to start with poliphonic music exspecially if it's Bach.
You need to play Bach by steps because it's not easy to play it. From the sinfonias I studied n 3 and n 11. English or French suites are good to start either.If you never tried out any Bach pieces you ought to start with the easy one or if you don't love Bach too much you can play othe baroque music such as Scarlatti and Soler Sonatas, Paradisi or Marcello pieces, Italian harpsichordist  wrote interesting pieces . But if you want a big advice you should attempt to learn Bach music, i did improve a lot in technique exspecially after studing fugues from WTC it helps more than 10 etudes all together trust it!

[p2u_]

I have never been into Bach.

That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it. Actually, to get you into Bach, I would not advise you to listen to his work too much initially, but instead find good jazz improvisations on some of his tunes. They can be really fun. For example this one by Bobby McFerrin (Based on the famous Largo from the concerto No.5 in F Minor, BWV 1056) or this Salute to Bach by the Oscar Peterson Trinity...

Paul

[ranniks]

Bach is so compelling that even if you don't like Bach you like Bach. Wait...What?

Anyways, welcome to that club, J_menz is arranging a Bach party tonight, don't forget the wig!

Back to the March in D Major^^.

[49410enrique]

[

Thanks all 

I am sure I won't let it go any further, just do a couple of these maybe and then stop

Number 15 is supposed to be the easiest (at least if we believe the gradings on this site). But it's not really to my taste. The ones that I prefer are 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13,   Number 9 really is the best of these, IMO.  But maybe I'll just butcher one of the others first

Note reading still is my pitfall so maybe I should choose one with less sharps/flats 

apparently made extra super popular by the modern literary porno fifty shades of grey (partly accounts for the super high view counts of what was for a while a relatively obscure /minor bach transcription )

how about this (i furnished the score only because it seems to be next to impossible to dig up-it may be on imslp i just didn't search there, actually it should/very likely could be there-- easily on the interwebs, maybe i just didn't google correcty when i tried again today, at least i found it before. i don't believe this/or this edition at least in in print. if ps.com has it for sale, let me know i'll promtply remove, also lots of hoop jumping over here, i had to take tif and convert to jpeg. then jpeg to pdf, then pdf 1 pdf 2 to pdf merge....ugh )

BE VERY CAREFUL, ONCE YOU'RE ALL STRUNG OUT ON BACH, LIKE ME, YOU START TO MOVE ON TO OTHER STUFF (AS WAS STATED), YOU EVEN START TO PREFER BACH VERSIONS OF PIECES BY FOLKS OTHER THAN BACH, AND THEN ALSO VERSIONS OF BACH BY FOLKS OTHER THAN BACH


*flies off

[outin]

if you don't love Bach too much you can play othe baroque music such as Scarlatti and Soler Sonatas, Paradisi or Marcello pieces, Italian harpsichordist  wrote interesting pieces .

Actually my main goal is to play all the Scarlatti sonatas before I die, but I do have a few to go (about 550 I will have to speed up a little, since 4 per year would mean I would have to live 137 year more...

[outin]

That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it.

I have absolutely no intention to temper my ears, they are free to do as they please and I will oblige 

[outin]

how about this (i furnished the score only because it seems to be next to impossible to dig up-it may be on imslp i just didn't search there, actually it should/very likely could be there-- easily on the interwebs, maybe i just didn't google correcty when i tried again today, at least i found it before. i don't believe this/or this edition at least in in print. if ps.com has it for sale, let me know i'll promtply remove, also lots of hoop jumping over here, i had to take tif and convert to jpeg. then jpeg to pdf, then pdf 1 pdf 2 to pdf merge....ugh )

Whats going on here! Where are the narcs when they are needed 

[costicina]

Thank you so much for posting the score, Enrique, you're precious! 

[worov]

That is no surprise for me because you need a well-tempered ear to listen to most of it. Actually, to get you into Bach, I would not advise you to listen to his work too much initially, but instead find good jazz improvisations on some of his tunes. They can be really fun. For example this one by Bobby McFerrin (Based on the famous Largo from the concerto No.5 in F Minor, BWV 1056) or this Salute to Bach by the Oscar Peterson Trinity...

Paul

Indeed many musicians improvise on Bach's music. Check out Emerson Lake and Palmer's version of BWV 812 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGQYXqUqslc

The bach piece starts at 3:21. (There is also some Janacek in it in this song)

Now, listen to the Bach original, you might enjoy it :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBKknvTtG8

[outin]

Well... My teacher and I agreed today that I play one invention first and then the sinfonias. I didn't resist because she played the invention so nicely to me 

[49410enrique]

Well... My teacher and I agreed today that I play one invention first and then the sinfonias. I didn't resist because she played the invention so nicely to me 

right on!

[ajspiano]

Well... My teacher and I agreed today that I play one invention first and then the sinfonias. I didn't resist because she played the invention so nicely to me 

Which one is it to be?

*I told you sinfonias would lead to inventions.

[outin]

Which one is it to be?

*I told you sinfonias would lead to inventions.

Nr 13

Unfortunately I haven't even started...haven't touched the piano since Monday
Our new organization has a deadline next Monday and my working hours have been between 12-14 hours...too tired to do anything after coming home and taken care of the pack...

[49410enrique]

...haven't touched the piano since Monday ...

[outin]

Well, I squeezed in 15 minutes this morning and tonight I came home early enough to practice some...I was getting serious withdrawal symptoms...Haven't started the Bach yet though...soon...

[p2u_]

Well, I squeezed in 15 minutes this morning and tonight I came home early enough to practice some...I was getting serious withdrawal symptoms...Haven't started the Bach yet though...soon...

Number 13 is a nice one. You don't have to practise it on the instrument right away, outin. Take your time to appreciate all the details while just listening, determining fingering, phrasing, etc. Take a recording that you can actually follow with your ears, voice by voice. Glen Gould, for example, plays it rather fast, so you may not be able to follow all the details. I would suggest something like this. Not that it is such great playing or something, but you can still learn a lot from it.

Paul

[outin]

Number 13 is a nice one. You don't have to practise it on the instrument right away, outin. Take your time to appreciate all the details while just listening, determining fingering, phrasing, etc. Take a recording that you can actually follow with your ears, voice by voice. Glen Gould, for example, plays it rather fast, so you may not be able to follow all the details. I would suggest something like this. Not that it is such great playing or something, but you can still learn a lot from it.

I actually prefer playing pieces "cold" the rare occasions it's possible... It's sometimes nice not to have a ready fixed image of what the piece should sound. 

I just read through some of it and immediately remembered why I hate to learn these... Because it is very painful for me to read this type of notation (It's a bit difficult to explain my reading problems to a "normal" person, but it's too monotonous, I cannot perceive what's written on the staff). Memorizing will take me ages... I wonder if I am motivated enough. But at least I've tried 

[outin]

I have been a good girl and learned the first 6 measures. After fixing the fingerings it's not difficult really, but it's good practice for hand independence...

[chopin2015]

^agreed - No. 15 is the bomb-diggity. Very exciting.

I have listened to that thing on repeat for 2+ hours and not got bored, more than once.

Are you serious, bro? Did you go surfing afterwards? Did you taste pink jelly beans like bananas? Lol

It is pretty cool though. I didn't like bach either. It grows on you! You'll like the WTC. You'll love learning p and fs. We all get old....

[49410enrique]

the thread title reminded me of this

[outin]

Well, whatever I learned completely fell to pieces at my lesson 

Had one of my worse days, could not concentrate on playing at all and had to force myself, which never works. My mind just goes blank.

And then she wanted me to try another fingering in one measure, which completely messed up the rest...

After my brain refused any co-operation we tried once again to work on my right hand octaves for the Chopin nocturne and I got depressed, I simply cannot reach them because of my thumb.

Back to work then, and try to do at least the rest of the first page until next time...

[hfmadopter]

Well, whatever I learned completely fell to pieces at my lesson  

Had one of my worse days, could not concentrate on playing at all and had to force myself, which never works. My mind just goes blank.

And then she wanted me to try another fingering in one measure, which completely messed up the rest...

After my brain refused any co-operation we tried once again to work on my right hand octaves for the Chopin nocturne and I got depressed, I simply cannot reach them because of my thumb.

Back to work then, and try to do at least the rest of the first page until next time...

My day went opposite yours. After having two days of bloating and cramps in prep and then a hospital procedure yesterday, finally in the evening I felt a bit more like myself, managed to get a half hour in at the piano. Working on Moments Musical (Schubert, Op 94 No 3). Did some scale and chord work the night before and it applied well for me last night in the piece. I'm a long ways from it being prepared but no real downers last night. That was good. I'm just getting back into some more traditional level 7 work after my time away. I selected this piece to do the day after Christmas, just getting to it now.

I got derailed over the digital piano experience and of course more David Nevue work to go along with the digital ( the wife is really getting into stringed orchestral sounds and piano combined on some of David's pieces, one in particular)..

[hfmadopter]

Well, whatever I learned completely fell to pieces at my lesson  

Had one of my worse days, could not concentrate on playing at all and had to force myself, which never works. My mind just goes blank.

And then she wanted me to try another fingering in one measure, which completely messed up the rest...

After my brain refused any co-operation we tried once again to work on my right hand octaves for the Chopin nocturne and I got depressed, I simply cannot reach them because of my thumb.

Back to work then, and try to do at least the rest of the first page until next time...

I managed to double post this quote in a computer bog down, sorry about that !

[outin]

My day went opposite yours. After having two days of bloating and cramps in prep and then a hospital procedure yesterday, finally in the evening I felt a bit more like myself, managed to get a half hour in at the piano.

Good to hear you are doing better now!

I have shown my right hand to 2 doctors and they both agreed that there's districted movement because of a shortened tendon/joint problem, but since there's no pain, problems in everyday activity or signs of arthritis it's not a real medical problem...

Try explaining that I NEED that movement to play a Chopin nocturne properly and they just look at you like what does it matter, you are not a professional pianist or anything, just play something else 

I may just have to redo my goals and forget about ever playing Chopin/Scriabin/whatever and just stick to my Scarlatti who almost never expects me to do RH octaves... 

[chopin2015]

Why cant you do octaves? You cant reach? Its ok to roll them. Even if youre a professional pianist. Although rolling is hard! But just concentrate on the sound, if you listen for the right notes, youll sound them perfectly.

[outin]

Why cant you do octaves? You cant reach? Its ok to roll them. Even if youre a professional pianist. Although rolling is hard! But just concentrate on the sound, if you listen for the right notes, youll sound them perfectly.

I can't reach. There are passages where rolling just would not work even if I could do it well. And I am a hopeless perfectionist, I'll hear the difference myself

But maybe one day I'll get a 7/8 keyboard...that would do the trick

[chopin2015]

I can't reach. There are passages where rolling just would not work even if I could do it well. And I am a hopeless perfectionist, I'll hear the difference myself

But maybe one day I'll get a 7/8 keyboard...that would do the trick

Ya you could do that or just be a harpsi player or play organ.

[outin]

Ya you could do that or just be a harpsi player or play organ.

I don't really like the sound of either...It's either piano or nothing...But I'm not a quitter, I just complain a lot 

[hfmadopter]

Good to hear you are doing better now!

I have shown my right hand to 2 doctors and they both agreed that there's districted movement because of a shortened tendon/joint problem, but since there's no pain, problems in everyday activity or signs of arthritis it's not a real medical problem...

Try explaining that I NEED that movement to play a Chopin nocturne properly and they just look at you like what does it matter, you are not a professional pianist or anything, just play something else  

I may just have to redo my goals and forget about ever playing Chopin/Scriabin/whatever and just stick to my Scarlatti who almost never expects me to do RH octaves...  

Thanks !
My first thought about your octave situation was just break the octaves. Then I saw your perfectionist reply. Well, that sounds silly to me. You have a deficient hand problem, it's mechanical in nature, so be it, break the octaves. I always think back to my teacher with her crippled hands all deformed with arthritis when these things come up. She could blow my Bach playing out of the water. She always broke octaves, even with fast passages between them. She just did it, years of experience ( she was also the church organist and director of music at the Catholic church in town here). But she told me anything you can't reach, break it rather than strain it. And she was right, lets face it at some point all of us can't span something, so it has to get broken.

[outin]

My first thought about your octave situation was just break the octaves. Then I saw your perfectionist reply. Well, that sounds silly to me. You have a deficient hand problem, it's mechanical in nature, so be it, break the octaves.

You are right...perfectionism is a curse sometimes.
Of course it's ok to break the octaves...If I could do it well enough to make it sound ok I would...but so far I can't. And don't have time to practice it with all that Bach...sigh...

[outin]

This damn invention...I have probably tried every reasonable fingering and I can't play fast or memorize properly...There's always some places that feel awkward and uncomfortable for my hands. The only way I can play some parts comfortably is with my long fingers close to the fallboard and with my upright that's hard to do without getting tension. It seems my hand shape, my instrument and the writing are incompatible 

[ajspiano]

There's always some places that feel awkward and uncomfortable for my hands.

Bar numbers?

[outin]

Bar numbers?

Don't have the sheet here but I have problems with almost every bar on the first page when trying to speed up. My teacher thought the fingering was fine and it felt so on her grand. But at home it just doesn't work.

[ajspiano]

Don't have the sheet here but I have problems with almost every bar on the first page when trying to speed up. My teacher thought the fingering was fine and it felt so on her grand. But at home it just doesn't work.

interesting. Is your pianos action heavier?

What specifically is the problem with speeding up..  feels tense?

Have you tried using parallel set practice?