Fingering for Pathetique mordents ?

[mikomasr]

Hello,

I've been learning the Pathetique on my own, and I'm having serious trouble with the mordents. I know how they should be done in theory, but in practice as soon as I try to go a bit faster, the three notes just don't sound clear anymore, and I guess it's because of bad fingering.

In some bars specifically, where the mordent is between a back key and a white key, I have to turn my hand sideways for my fingers to fit, because there is so little space... It's hard to explain but anyway I was wondering if you had any suggestions for proper fingering? My score doesn't give very clear suggestions...

Thanks in advance!

[slobone]

Is there any way you can post a picture of the measures you're concerned about? Otherwise I'm not sure where the mordents you're talking about are.

[mr_drm]

I know exactly what you are talking about.  I use 2-4-3 for each one. It works for me.

[j_menz]

Is there any way you can post a picture of the measures you're concerned about? Otherwise I'm not sure where the mordents you're talking about are.

Bars from about 55 to 80.

Just looked at the score and figured I'd have a suggestion since these don't give me trouble. Realised I have absolutely no idea what fingering I use, which I find strange. 

Score I checked suggests a combination of 232 and 343.  My guess is the two limiting factors here are how comfortable you are having your thumb on black notes and how fast your 343 is.  The 243 suggested above seems  eminantl;y workable, too.

[mikomasr]

Thanks everyone for your comments!
Here are the two mordents I have trouble with (only these two, in red on the screen capture I'm attaching). I do 3-4-3 on all others just fine, but on these two, I just can't get my middle finger to hit that white key because it's so close to the black key my 4th finger is already on (this is when I approach the normal playing speed). And wow I have no idea how some of you manage to go 2-4-3 on this... should I just keep practising slowly until... the time is right... ? or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I do 2-3-2-1 the whole time.

But as you can see, everyone suggested to you like different fingerings, so you have to find out what's best for you.

[jugular]

I do 3-4-3 for all the mordants, it just feels more natural for me. If 3-4-3 is working for you on all the other mordants, then I suggest continuing to practice the mordant that's giving you trouble (F-Gb-F) with that fingering.

One thing that actually helped me play these mordants with more fluidity was to think of it as an eighth note triplet instead of an ornament. For example, if you break down the mordant you're having trouble with it'd be an eighth note triplet for the F-Gb-F then landing on the quarter note Eb for the next beat. Think of those four notes as a tiny motif, now draw out the contour of the motif and you get a /\ figure. The first note to the second (F-Gb) is the only ascending motion of this motif, the rest is descending:  a motion that is generally preferred as opposed to ascending.

Most players focus purely on the mordant, and then rush their finger to reach the quarter note in the next beat. I started like this and found it to be extremely choppy and out-of-time; it wasn't until I started thinking of the mordants in terms of contour where I finally started playing them with a bit more justice.

I hope that doesn't sound too confusing, I tend to rant on a lot. Give it a try if you want and see how it affects your playing!

[cas70]

2-3-2-1 should work fine for all of them, I think.