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Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2 (Read 14268 times)

Offline outin

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #50 on: January 18, 2013, 05:37:41 AM »
And I recall you participated in that offensive thread making fun of "ugly pianists" yourself.  Yes, you took a "higher ground" but failed to clearly voice any objections to the thread's contents.  


I did ? ??

Offline j_menz

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #51 on: January 18, 2013, 05:38:25 AM »
is there a safe list?

People who have managed not to tread on the toes of cmg at any point?
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #52 on: January 18, 2013, 05:40:45 AM »
People who have managed not to tread on the toes of cmg at any point?

Well then you and out due to being anti hanon.

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #53 on: January 18, 2013, 05:42:19 AM »
YOU?  YOU?

Complaining about the INSENSITIVITY of others??

YOU were the poster who proudly contributed to the "ugliest pianist" thread who said, and I paraphrase:

"OLD PEOPLE ARE EXEMPT FROM THIS CATEGORY BECAUSE BEING OLD IS UGLY BY DEFINITION."

I found your comments so utterly offensive,  (not to mention the very thread you contributed to), I asked the moderators to delete the damned thread.  Which they did.

So, please, don't b*tch about political correctness here or the suggestion that you have been victimized or misunderstood.

You're obviously shameless.

You owe us all an apology for your earlier tasteless posts.

Actually I said it was unfair to judge old people's looks through features acquired through the degeneration of one's body with age, but okay swhatever.

Also I didn't say anything about being PC, I just made a metaphorical analogy to aid in someone's execution by basically saying have a more delicate and controlled attack rather than hammer the keys, and I get hit with diatribes about how society can't pet cats properly.

Then  I get called shameless and offensive and told to apologise, all for trying to help someone play a little better.

What the hell is wrong with you?

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #54 on: January 18, 2013, 05:48:45 AM »
Then  I get called shameless and offensive and told to apologise, all for trying to help someone play a little better.

What the hell is wrong with you?

Could be something to do with swearing in your post and generally flipping out when no offence was intended toward you.. 

Brenden has previously claimed to be better than bach, be capable of sight-reading all the beethoven sonatas to performance standard, be as good as composer as chopin and declared anyone who doesnt compose to be a artless waste of a  musician (which is probably quite a few piano streeters) ...  I admire your desire to help.. I guess the rest of us are a little less inclined to be so generous.

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #55 on: January 18, 2013, 05:55:40 AM »
I think you're taking those gun pictures and puppets a little seriously.

I'm moreso just a bit surprised that you persist on not getting the metaphorical implication of the stroking comment. It's like really, you don't have to get into the details of stroking a cat just because of some analogy. The image that's conjured up in the average person is the important thing.

I wasn't saying offence was meant towards me, but you can spare people the details.

Also I know full well what Brendan has been up to, but you can either give him some sort of useful advice, which might actually help his performing ability as well as placate his ego to some extent (which may also just subside with age), or you can just mock/deride him because he's a teenager who said some smug teenage stuff.

I don't really see where I fit into his arrogance, though, really.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #56 on: January 18, 2013, 06:01:35 AM »
I'm moreso just a bit surprised that you persist on not getting the metaphorical implication of the stroking comment. It's like really, you don't have to get into the details of stroking a cat just because of some analogy. The image that's conjured up in the average person is the important thing.
Speaking as someone who knows what you're getting at pianistically, and as a piano teacher that has worked on it with more than a few students I don't honestly think that the petting a cat analogy is a good option so far as an all encompassing description that would work for a lot of people...

...But I never actually said it was a bad suggestion, and I suspect you use it because it worked for you. I was just going with the flow of the topic for fun..  it went this way for me because I don't think brendan wanted advice, I think he wanted (and perhaps expected) to be told his performance was wonderful.

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #57 on: January 18, 2013, 06:02:46 AM »
This really shouldn't have been the result of a Chopin thread.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #58 on: January 18, 2013, 06:05:58 AM »
This really shouldn't have been the result of a Chopin thread.

Perhaps not..   as far as off-topic argumentative rants go though, this is pretty mild.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #59 on: January 18, 2013, 06:07:22 AM »
As an aside..  I have a student who is an adult beginner, 26yrs old.

He had NEVER held or petted a cat until he did so at my house just recently.

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #60 on: January 18, 2013, 06:09:58 AM »
It has given me an idea though, maybe I should start touting myself as the second coming of Beethoven so I get more reactions to my posts.

Nah, as Aesop said one mustn't mistake notoriety for fame.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #61 on: January 18, 2013, 06:12:54 AM »
@ All:

When people say something, they assume certain things that are not said explicitly, but we can guess from their gestures, mimics, etc. what they really mean. When people write on a board like this, it becomes more difficult to guess all the assumptions and premises, the more so since English may not be their native language. We may also assume more than what the writer assumed, and that's how this kind of conflicts start. I suggest dropping the argument and start anew. Let's try not to be ambiguous in what we write. Thank you.
P.S.: As I see it, Teran had no intention of offending old people; he was just rather unlucky in his word choice in that "ugly-pianists" thread, which was a junk topic to start with anyway. The cat petting here was meant as "a gentle movement, not hitting the keys".

Paul
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No more pearls before swine...

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #62 on: January 18, 2013, 12:00:13 PM »

Offline costicina

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #63 on: January 19, 2013, 11:55:10 AM »
About cat petting: I find AJ's metaphor deeply appropriate. There is an entire approach involved, not only a mechanical set of movements...

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #64 on: January 19, 2013, 09:08:48 PM »
Well you have to start somewhere, don't you?

Offline cmg

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #65 on: January 20, 2013, 05:36:43 AM »
People who have managed not to tread on the toes of cmg at any point?

Thanks. You think making fun of old people's pix, such as Cortot, etc., an adult form of entertainment?  These are the "toes" of cmg that one should not tread upon?


You should examine your own arrested development.  How old ARE you anyway:  sixteen?
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline cmg

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #66 on: January 20, 2013, 05:47:00 AM »
Actually I said it was unfair to judge old people's looks through features acquired through the degeneration of one's body with age, but okay swhatever.

Also I didn't say anything about being PC, I just made a metaphorical analogy to aid in someone's execution by basically saying have a more delicate and controlled attack rather than hammer the keys, and I get hit with diatribes about how society can't pet cats properly.

Then  I get called shameless and offensive and told to apologise, all for trying to help someone play a little better.

What the hell is wrong with you?




Because you're a liar:  you didn't say that at all.  You said, "old people are exempt from the ugliest pianist prize because old people are ugly BY DEFINiTION."  I'm not wrong.  Your post was SO offensive even the moderators deleted it.

Of course, j_menz, who is stuck in adolescence, and apparently feels I'm hyper-sensitive, would disagree and support your bigotry. 

 
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline cmg

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #67 on: January 20, 2013, 05:51:51 AM »
I did ? ??

Yeh, you DID. Your only comment was something to the effect that "if you feel old people are ugly, then what does that make me?"

Does this ring a bell?  Or all of you brain-dead?
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline p2u_

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #68 on: January 20, 2013, 05:58:40 AM »

Because you're a liar:  you didn't say that at all.  You said, "old people are exempt from the ugliest pianist prize because old people are ugly BY DEFINiTION."  I'm not wrong.  Your post was SO offensive even the moderators deleted it.

Hm. That is very offensive and deliberately so, yes. No doubt about that. I didn't actually see that post. I avoid topics like "the prettiest", "the ugliest", "the worst", "the best", etc. because they are basically all derogatory by definition. I still want to ask you to forgive (not forget) and move on.

Paul
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No more pearls before swine...

Offline cmg

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #69 on: January 20, 2013, 06:10:21 AM »
As to the j_menz opinion here that I am hyper-sensitive, fine.  

This forum, which I subscribed to some years ago, is populated by pretentious and delusional posters such as brendan and the 89thkey.  The rest of you exhibit adolescent strivings and amateurish incompetency.  Being a beginner isn't something to be ashamed of, but most of you pose as accomplished pianists.  You're not.  You're jokes, and in denial about your abilities.

This is too boring.  Social media is an aberration and this forum exemplifies it.  There are no accomplished or professional pianists to connect with here.  (Well, very few and infrequently.)  Or, on ANY piano forum.  REAL pianists practice and perform, as it turns out, and they don't have time to POST.

I'm outta here.  Thank God.  This is a ghetto.


Bye.  I have more important things to do than argue with adolescents, or adults stuck in adolescence.  
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)

Offline outin

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #70 on: January 20, 2013, 08:31:35 AM »
Yeh, you DID. Your only comment was something to the effect that "if you feel old people are ugly, then what does that make me?"

Does this ring a bell?  Or all of you brain-dead?

Yes, I asked what is the age limit that would make me qualify. Ever heard of sarcasm? I would have expected everyone to understand how I felt about your comment and the whole thread, but obviously not  ::)

Now that hardly qualifies as "participated in that offensive thread making fun of "ugly pianists" yourself". At least my aim was solely to make fun of you (or whoever it was that made that ridiculous comment on that ridiculous thread)

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #71 on: January 20, 2013, 10:40:02 AM »

Offline costicina

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #72 on: January 20, 2013, 12:51:06 PM »
Thank you, Enrique, this thread was getting very unpleasant, and as always you found a way to lighten it with your irresistible elephant!!!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #73 on: January 20, 2013, 08:00:05 PM »

Because you're a liar:  you didn't say that at all.  You said, "old people are exempt from the ugliest pianist prize because old people are ugly BY DEFINiTION."  I'm not wrong.  Your post was SO offensive even the moderators deleted it.

Of course, j_menz, who is stuck in adolescence, and apparently feels I'm hyper-sensitive, would disagree and support your bigotry. 

 

Yeah no I don't think so.

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #74 on: January 20, 2013, 08:08:22 PM »
But really though I think you're guilty of sensational hyperbole worthy of a politician. I mean seriously, finishing off one of your posts with the nauseating "how old ARE YOU?" question.

So apparently it's mean to call old people unattractive, but okay to imply adolescents and the general youth are abhorrent plebs beneath your attention.

Great logic there.

I mean honestly since you threw that pathetic how old are you question out there, let me ask you this. Were you bullied as a youngster?

Seriously though I've actually been extremely well behaved on here considering I'm a young male, you don't even know the half of the offence I actually am capable of causing, but I save that for the boys, you know, generally people who don't do fifty cartwheels as a response to every facetious remark.

Offline lelle

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #75 on: January 20, 2013, 08:56:09 PM »

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #76 on: January 20, 2013, 09:30:41 PM »
I think your crediting me with something i didnt say, costicina.

Anyway perhaps we can redirect the conversation back towards piano and the nocturne - which i will attempt to do since i was likely the one that sent it out of line in the first place.

Whether or not we can agree that its like patting a cat perhaps we might consider valentinas demonstration as posted by Paul earlier. She has proven herself fairly excellent in this regard i feel - in a number of different videos.
With love from Valentina

Is this what you mean, teran? There is a very good visual of the RH motions in the above video.

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #77 on: January 20, 2013, 09:53:26 PM »
Yeah that's basically what I mean, I mean her motion is a little more exaggerated than what I would say but I mean that's just how her hand moves and it works for her... but yeah that's sort of the basic idea.

I mean I said before in that post (eons ago) about the directness of his attack being the main issue really, with the idea of the stroking motion diminishing the effect on the tone by the noise of the keys and action. Basically to make the note more sonorous and less percussive, as just the sound of your finger, nails, and the hammer slapping can have a huge effect on the tone, so softening the overall attack while still maintaining good volume gives a much more sonorous tone.

That was what I was trying to get across to Brendan, but I mean, I feel that a lot of the time advice is given in more abstract musical terms, and tbh if the person is capable of actually following the ideas of tone colour etc, they're not going to be playing the way they are in the first place.

So yeah, I used the cat stroking analogy, which is the one I was told and I always thought it was rather apt.

Apparently I was wrong though.

Also to dispel cmg's hyperbole once and for all, here's the direct quote from that thread.

Quote
Also I think it would be unfair to bring up the old ones because well... yeah. I mean Mitsuko Uchida was beautiful as a young woman but obviously she is now a senior citizen, you can't really fight the ravages of age no matter the level of your inherent beauty.

Make of it what you will, but it was definitely not quite what they would have you believe. Also obviously not deleted for being too offensive, since I found it just now. :rolleyes:

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #78 on: January 20, 2013, 10:16:20 PM »
Yeah that's basically what I mean, I mean her motion is a little more exaggerated than what I would say but I mean that's just how her hand moves and it works for her... but yeah that's sort of the basic idea.

I mean I said before in that post (eons ago) about the directness of his attack being the main issue really, with the idea of the stroking motion diminishing the effect on the tone by the noise of the keys and action. Basically to make the note more sonorous and less percussive, as just the sound of your finger, nails, and the hammer slapping can have a huge effect on the tone, so softening the overall attack while still maintaining good volume gives a much more sonorous tone.


That was what I was trying to get across to Brendan, but I mean, I feel that a lot of the time advice is given in more abstract musical terms, and tbh if the person is capable of actually following the ideas of tone colour etc, they're not going to be playing the way they are in the first place.

So yeah, I used the cat stroking analogy, which is the one I was told and I always thought it was rather apt.

Apparently I was wrong though.

Also to dispel cmg's hyperbole once and for all, here's the direct quote from that thread.

Make of it what you will, but it was definitely not quite what they would have you believe. Also obviously not deleted for being too offensive, since I found it just now. :rolleyes:

I'd say again that I don't think the cat analogy is bad.. it just fairly ambiguous if its not also accompanied by an actual demo.

Valentina's technique does look quite exaggerated I agree, but as you say it is obviously her thing. It is even more evident in this video of Etude Op. 10 No. 6 again in the RH.

Theres also an interest in how the finger acts on the key physically and sonically - which I found quite fascinating when I first learnt and experimented with it. This can be tested just on a desktop (no piano required - in fact the difference may be more obvious just on a desk)..

If you perform a finger strike with a more curved finger, that lands right on the finger tip, with part of the finger almost vertical (sometimes I here people refer to this techniques as "like little hammers" - at least I think that's what they are referring to) it produces a punchy harsh kind of sound comparitively to the flatter finger that strikes with the pad - which produces a deeper more resonant sound with a softer tone generally - which is what valentina is predominantly using in these videos.

Offline teran

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #79 on: January 20, 2013, 10:36:11 PM »
Another cool example I've seen is the string being held to stop it vibrating and then striking the key, and the amount of noise it actually makes.

Offline gligeti

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op 9 No 2
«Reply #80 on: March 28, 2013, 08:35:12 PM »
 ;D

Just found this thread... Talking 'bout cats and Op 9. No. 2. Coincidentally my cat likes this piece.