Challenging Pupil...

[dinulip]

Hi,

What can be done about a 7-year-old child who is very energetic, sensitive, musical and talented, but nearly impossible to manage?  Lately, she has been saying that she would rather learn how to play the guitar, but her father does not want her to switch intruments.  Seeing how talented she is, I can understand why.  However, she is always agitated during her lessons, and does not take my comments very readily.  She makes lots of gestures with her arms, just to look like a great pianist!  She says that she would like me to let her play as she likes...  I would be willing to do that for a couple of months, maybe, but I am afraid that it will be very hard afterwards to get her back on the right track... 

Anyone has gone through such an experience before?  Please tell me your secret...

Thank you!

[chopin2015]

why not guitar and piano?

[keypeg]

I'm curious, if she is always agitated in lessons, is she ever still for long enough for you to see that talent?

[lilla]

Sounds to me like she needs a big dose of instructions.  Do you have a policy?  Read to her the expectation during lessons.  I have a sheet I used to use for learning disabled students with pictures.  Something like, "Eyes On", "Listen", "Hands Quiet."  She needs to know who the teacher is, who the authority is, and how she is expected to behave in lessons.  This seems to be lacking quite often now a days.  Perhaps also review what the rewards will be for following lesson rules - perhaps assign a personal choice piece once per month or so.  Or the last five minutes of the lesson she gets to improvise with large hand gestures.  Does this make sense to you?

[j_menz]

Ritalin in the water cooler?

[lostinidlewonder]

Lately, she has been saying that she would rather learn how to play the guitar, but her father does not want her to switch intruments.

I've had very young students say to me that they don't want to learn the piano. I ignore it the first time they say it. If they bring it up again sometime down the track I will take notice and mention it to the parents. There is literally no point in teaching a child who says they don't want to learn something. If they vocalize it you need to take action. I've had some that say nothing and do it because their parents want them to, I will not refuse to teach them because it is never too late to learn that sometimes in life we have to do things we don't exactly want to do!

Some children do not know what they want to do and say things which doesn't have real meaning behind it except to escape work. They might just want to get out of the work required from them sitting in a lesson, whether it be piano or any other subject for that matter.

However, she is always agitated during her lessons, and does not take my comments very readily.

Some kids don't like to think that they are doing something wrong. Challenge them to do it another way rather than correcting them. If you could provide some scenarios you are experiencing then we might have better advice here.

She says that she would like me to let her play as she likes...  

This makes me think that she is afraid to think that how she does something might not be the best way. Especially bright young students can be this way, they play sports and know they are doing it right because they win, they get high marks in class because it says so on the test papers, but with music there is a broad degree of what constitutes good. You would not want a total beginner to play like a professional concert pianist immediately because there are many other stages of good that they must achieve before they get that.

I find some young students are not mentally capable rather than physically. They may have the ability to improve but their very mental capacity to deal  with change and reassessing the way they do things is not at that same level. I have currently one very talented 5 year old Chinese boy who can read words like a grade 7 student and studies advanced maths for his age etc etc. He plays the piano well but of course there is areas to improve, but how much I can improve is limited to his capacity to deal with making that change. If I push for too much change he can get depressed and agitated and try to distract me from pushing the issue too hard. So I have to push but not too hard, give him space to breath and give him my trust that he will try to work it out and at least pay attention that there is need for improvement.

[keypeg]

I didn't go right out and say it, but if she is playing the role of a superstar pianist as she imagines it, doing exaggerated flourishes and such - is she talented, or is her family telling her she is talented so that she does this acting?  If she is not letting herself be taught, and if does this kind of acting at home, how can she be developing any music?  Talented people are usually engrossed in the instrument and in the music, not in themselves looking like talented people.  So I'm wondering whether the OP actually does see ability in how she plays.  The attitude itself would be the problem, no?

[slane]

Seven is very young. How long is her lesson? My daughter, now 9, would not have coped with more than 15mins at that age. She never imagined herself as a concert pianist but she was certainly impatient with having to use the right fingers and count the notes and all that pedantic stuff. That's why I got her a "proper" teacher.

Lilla gives good advice on asserting yourself.
Keypeg may have some good insight into the parents attitude. Perhaps they have pumped up her ego. Or she may just be like that. My Aunt taught my cousin about 3 lessons, then he decided he'd mastered the instrument and went off to his friend's house to teach him.
Her other two, less arrogant, children went quite far with their lessons.

[maitea]

show her videos of true great pianists! Usually messing around with extravagant arm movements is inversely proportionate to the artistic quality!Has she ever been to a concert? Could you play for her, and let her calm down and just listen? Music is inside, not outside.
And I agree with lostindlewonder, it sounds like someone in her family is helping her create those fancies...

[matt_walker]

It's a tricky one. A half hour lesson can feel like a lifetime with a challenging pupil, can't it! I think you should say something directly to her, that it's your job to teach her and it's very difficult when she doesn't listen/misbehaves etc. Or speak to her parents, and ask them to have a chat with her to see what she really wants to get out of it maybe.

[dinulip]

I'm curious, if she is always agitated in lessons, is she ever still for long enough for you to see that talent?

Well, sometimes she decides to quiet down and play more seriously.  Then, she makes beautiful phrases -- just naturally.  It suddenly becomes obvious that she is musical.  Also, I noticed that she reads music quite easily.

[dinulip]

It's a tricky one. A half hour lesson can feel like a lifetime with a challenging pupil, can't it! I think you should say something directly to her, that it's your job to teach her and it's very difficult when she doesn't listen/misbehaves etc. Or speak to her parents, and ask them to have a chat with her to see what she really wants to get out of it maybe.

I have spoken to her father, who stands totally behind me.  He has had quite a few chats with her over the past year.  Apparently, she is somewhat embarrassed about her behaviour -- but only after the fact!   

[dinulip]

Sounds to me like she needs a big dose of instructions.  Do you have a policy?  Read to her the expectation during lessons.  I have a sheet I used to use for learning disabled students with pictures.  Something like, "Eyes On", "Listen", "Hands Quiet."  She needs to know who the teacher is, who the authority is, and how she is expected to behave in lessons.  This seems to be lacking quite often now a days.  Perhaps also review what the rewards will be for following lesson rules - perhaps assign a personal choice piece once per month or so.  Or the last five minutes of the lesson she gets to improvise with large hand gestures.  Does this make sense to you?

Thank you, Lilla.  I agree with you: teachers have become much too lenient over the past two decades or so, with the result that those, like myself, who would like to be a little firmer, are afraid to do so.  However, I have spoken to her father two days ago, and he stands totally behind me.  Therefore, I am considering having a little chat with the little devil next week -- and make it clear to her who is the 'master'!   

[dinulip]

I've had very young students say to me that they don't want to learn the piano. I ignore it the first time they say it. If they bring it up again sometime down the track I will take notice and mention it to the parents. There is literally no point in teaching a child who says they don't want to learn something. If they vocalize it you need to take action. I've had some that say nothing and do it because their parents want them to, I will not refuse to teach them because it is never too late to learn that sometimes in life we have to do things we don't exactly want to do!

Some children do not know what they want to do and say things which doesn't have real meaning behind it except to escape work. They might just want to get out of the work required from them sitting in a lesson, whether it be piano or any other subject for that matter.
Some kids don't like to think that they are doing something wrong. Challenge them to do it another way rather than correcting them. If you could provide some scenarios you are experiencing then we might have better advice here.
This makes me think that she is afraid to think that how she does something might not be the best way. Especially bright young students can be this way, they play sports and know they are doing it right because they win, they get high marks in class because it says so on the test papers, but with music there is a broad degree of what constitutes good. You would not want a total beginner to play like a professional concert pianist immediately because there are many other stages of good that they must achieve before they get that.

I find some young students are not mentally capable rather than physically. They may have the ability to improve but their very mental capacity to deal  with change and reassessing the way they do things is not at that same level. I have currently one very talented 5 year old Chinese boy who can read words like a grade 7 student and studies advanced maths for his age etc etc. He plays the piano well but of course there is areas to improve, but how much I can improve is limited to his capacity to deal with making that change. If I push for too much change he can get depressed and agitated and try to distract me from pushing the issue too hard. So I have to push but not too hard, give him space to breath and give him my trust that he will try to work it out and at least pay attention that there is need for improvement.

Many thanks for this great, well-detailed reply, lostinidlewonder!  There is so much 'food for thought' in your comments!  Your experience with the 5-year-old Chinese pupil is quite similar to mine with my little girl.  She is physically ready to learn certain "techniques", but the mental maturity is not quite there yet.  Like you, I have to feed her some information, but only bit by bit -- otherwise, piano will disgust her forever.  With her, I feel like I am walking on eggs! 

[dinulip]

I didn't go right out and say it, but if she is playing the role of a superstar pianist as she imagines it, doing exaggerated flourishes and such - is she talented, or is her family telling her she is talented so that she does this acting?  If she is not letting herself be taught, and if does this kind of acting at home, how can she be developing any music?  Talented people are usually engrossed in the instrument and in the music, not in themselves looking like talented people.  So I'm wondering whether the OP actually does see ability in how she plays.  The attitude itself would be the problem, no?

I agree with you: it is mostly an attitude problem.  She has talent, but a talent which, in the end, may be all for nothing, because of her 'attitude'.  Her father recently told me that when she was three years old, he had to transfer her from a small "family-like" daycare to a larger one, because she was constantly "testing the limits" of the lady in charge... (poor woman!).  This transfer occurred shortly after the birth of her younger brother.  I suspect that she badly needed some attention from her parents -- and still does.  She has two younger siblings.  It could be that she is mourning the parental attention that she had during the two first years of her life -- and never got back.

[keypeg]

Dinulip, are you yourself seeing evidence of talent?  If so, how it is manifesting itself?

[dinulip]

She is not a child prodigy, but she is definitely more talented than the average child.  She phrases naturally and plays with expression.  Also, she is a fast reader.   

[lostinidlewonder]

Many thanks for this great, well-detailed reply, lostinidlewonder!  There is so much 'food for thought' in your comments!  Your experience with the 5-year-old Chinese pupil is quite similar to mine with my little girl.  She is physically ready to learn certain "techniques", but the mental maturity is not quite there yet.  Like you, I have to feed her some information, but only bit by bit -- otherwise, piano will disgust her forever.  With her, I feel like I am walking on eggs!  

I appreciate that you found something in my post that resonates with your experience.

Finding that balance of instruction and letting them go off on their own is very tough. If you let them have completely control you can't teach them, if you constantly assert your authority they may hate you for it and thus you can't teach them effectively. That can be a real challenge as you know yourself!

I find young minds are mentally developing at lightning speed every week, month, year! The amount of change that they go through is extremely fast compared to a developed adult. I think that can be a really tricky issue for teachers of young children to deal with. The young student might throw tantrums of a little child (resist your teaching because they are agitated), the might try to concentrate and listen better as their mind absorbs and processes new information.

I don't want young students to see me as an authoritative figure or any student for that matter. I remember as a child enjoying being taught by teachers who where pleasant and smiled and felt like a friend to me. I like to do the same with my young students, once you have that you can challenge them to work and make changes easier. I hated teachers I had who acted like "know it alls" and didn't care about my own perspectives. It is wonderful to ask children how they see their music, just get them to talk about it, how it makes them feel, how challenges they are posed with make them feel and how they might try to solve it. They can come up with the most ingenious ideas that an adult could easily miss. (I remember very early on in my teaching career one child (about 8 ) telling me 12 finger combinations is a pinch and 13 is a flick, I learned a huge amount thinking of it like that!)

Given that you are concerned about your young students reactions you will improve your teaching method with her. Just giving it attention helps. The amount of teachers who just don't care and carry on despite their students reaction, I have come across many in my lifetime! As private tutors not mass class instructors, we cannot do this unless we want to be terrible teachers!

[pairra]

I've had to deal with rambunctious students. One in particular, has turned into quite a talented pianist. She's is about 12 now, though I started as her second teacher when she was about seven. She definitely didn't sit still, often laying down on the bench, acting silly, ect. But she's gradually evened out over the years, so maybe it is just a maturity thing. I mean, as many times as she had been lectured about acting correctly, she didn't really change until *she wanted too*.

Your student sounds like a challenging, though immature, student. And challenging students can be fun. I think the idea of having her watch youtube videos is a really great idea. Also, maybe setting aside time for her to be dramatic? Maybe have her compose a song that tells a story and that she also has to act while playing?

And how do you mean she is agitated? Is she full of energy or does she just get upset when you make a comment? I have one or two students that don't really like comments from me. Both are smart and know that they have done something wrong and would rather work out the problem during the week and just play their pieces at their lesson. This is again, the maturity thing.  They are just not ready for constructive criticism and would rather just focus on practicing. When they become ready, they will ask me to help them. (It's happened.) Or, they will learn by themselves to fix the problem and I will give them praise for that.

Also, maybe instead of telling her the problem, ask her if there is anything she did wrong or needs to work on.

And, if she really can't sit still because she has lots of energy, then try 15 minute lessons. Once or twice a week.