How much is too much? playing Musically

[lufia]

Hello good sirs

When playing musically, how much is too much? Is it really okay to lets say for example...be absolutely no limit to your expression? How much can we change the music to our own before it is deemed unfavorable? Many years ago ive got a lot of mix reactions from my exam marks from an encore to other markers telling me i'm at times not playing by the book and being over eccentric.  So ive been playing in the safe 'boundaries' when im performing for quite some time now.

There should be no boundaries to artistic expression right? even if it means changing the normative within the sheetmusic to make it our own personal music to play. Though critics frown upon this, i don't think its right to leave such music static and bland, this i think is attributing to the death of classical music. We should be leaving our own soul and personal signatures within the pieces. What do you guys think?

heres a good example of Rachmaninoff playing mozart.

And heres another one that exaggerates what im trying to point out. There are major changes to tempo, pace, dynamics etc but sadly its not the piano(just think of it as one ) but it should get the point around i feel.

[iansinclair]

There can be no single answer to that.  The question is, are the changes being made themselves artistic?  And is the result still artistically true to the intent of the composer and the style of the music?

Sometimes a performance of piece A by player (or conductor) B can be somewhat eccentric -- Sir Thomas Beecham comes to mind -- and the result can be superb, although not necessarily quite what the composer may have had in mind.  On the other hand, sometimes piece C by player D can produce a result which is at best slightly eccentric (Leopold Stokowski comes to mind).  And sometimes the end result can be genuinely horrifying.

[maitea]

I agree with iainsinclair, there is no single answer to that.. Moreover, there is not "right or wrong" in art.. And actually, defining art is quite a complicated matter in its own. We base our "judgement', our opinion, say if you like it or not, or if you play it this or that other way based on "taste". Which is already mentioned in old music treaties as giusto. But "taste" is not something immobile! It changes with time, and performance history shows us, that for example slow tempos in classical sonatas used to be played far slower some 50 years ago than now. Or the way Bach used to be played has also dramatically changed in the last years, after more treaties and historical informed practice have come to life!

However, personally for me, the important thing is to be true to oneself and to the music. Changing things in the score just to be "different".. I don't rate that very highly on my personal artistic scale- but that might be me. I believe there is a HUGE, really VAST amount of colours and possibilities in the music, being true to the score. Getting  bit late now, and probably have written too much already!The important thing, is enjoying what you do, and share that with the audience,truthfully!

[jogoeshome]

Hello good sirs

When playing musically, how much is too much?

Lang Lang much

[slane]

This reminds me of the scene in Nodame Cantabile where two of Nodame's friends are listening to her play chopin (they are in the apartment downstairs from her) and one of them says "No Nodame! This is where the emotion has to really shine" or something like that, and the the other guy says "No you're wrong. When I hear chopin played like that, I feel like I've seen something I shouldn't have".
And then the first person wonders if she failed to get to a final at a competition because her playing of chopin was a tad obscene.

I wonder how the second guy would feel about Lang Lang. I like lang lang if I close my eyes.

[slobone]

If you're talking about deviating from the printed music -- adding or changing notes -- there's a whole history to this. It seems as though most pianists before the 20th century, and even some during the first half of the century, felt perfectly free to alter the music however they felt like, to show off their technique or "expression." (In the YouTube example you posted by Rachmaninoff, by the way, he makes very few changes. The other one I'd prefer not to talk about  ).

Then starting sometime around the 30's, and especially after WWII, it started to be frowned upon to make changes to the score, although some pianists, like Horowitz, still did it here and there. This is all separate from the longstanding tradition of virtuoso pianists composing an arrangement of somebody elses' piece -- if anything this is having a comeback these days. And I guess there are still some who make changes without bothering to mention the fact.

[slane]

Barenboim just makes it up when he forgets the music (sorry I can't find the article where I read that).
Because he is so masterful, and because most of the audience would assume that if Barenboim's playing it, it must be right, he gets away with it,

[slobone]

Barenboim just makes it up when he forgets the music (sorry I can't find the article where I read that).
Because he is so masterful, and because most of the audience would assume that if Barenboim's playing it, it must be right, he gets away with it,

I think everybody does that. What else are you going to do when you forget the music? Maybe Barenboim is the only one who's willing to admit it.

[p2u_]

When playing musically, how much is too much?

Too much would be when you no longer convince me that what you play is "right", logical, natural, balanced, etc.

An example: Although I understand what the pianist is after, I find this version of Liszt's Orage way too "dirty", even for a storm in the Swiss Alps.

Paul

[virtuoso80]

As a heavy metal guy, I often find many people's "too much" is my "not enough." It used to bother me, but now I just accept that, just as not everyone likes the music that I like, not everyone will like the interpretation I like.

[virtuoso80]

It's not piano, but, for all you Mahler lovers (someone often accused of 'too much'), is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypQMFUztE-c recording too much, in your opinion?


...because I think it's one of the greatest orchestral recordings ever made.

[p2u_]

As a heavy metal guy, I often find many people's "too much" is my "not enough." It used to bother me, but now I just accept that, just as not everyone likes the music that I like, not everyone will like the interpretation I like.

I think we should not confuse different styles of music with what is appropriate for that style. I can also appreciate heavy metal at times, but that doesn't change my taste or opinion about how other music styles should be performed. I'm not an expert, but there must be objective elements in heavy metal that make it heavy metal, and not something else?

It's not piano, but, for all you Mahler lovers (someone often accused of 'too much'), is this youtube.com/watch?v=ypQMFUztE-c recording too much, in your opinion?
...because I think it's one of the greatest orchestral recordings ever made.

Sounds just "right" (in the meaning of convincing) to me.

Paul

[pianoplunker]

As a heavy metal guy, I often find many people's "too much" is my "not enough." It used to bother me, but now I just accept that, just as not everyone likes the music that I like, not everyone will like the interpretation I like.

Too bad you cant turn your amp up to 11 - but even then it might not be enough :-)   Actually I think Heavy metal has a certain boundary of what is acceptable just like classical or polka or whatever.  I have heard very poor heavy metal interpretations where the music turned into a pile of shredded, mindless, noise.  For me, with any music, too many notes is too many notes.

[slane]

I think everybody does that. What else are you going to do when you forget the music? Maybe Barenboim is the only one who's willing to admit it.

Well people could admit that memorising music is hard, and since Beethoven didn't approve of playing from memory, Barenboim could use the sheet music and argue that's more authentic !

[virtuoso80]

I think we should not confuse different styles of music with what is appropriate for that style. I can also appreciate heavy metal at times, but that doesn't change my taste or opinion about how other music styles should be performed. I'm not an expert, but there must be objective elements in heavy metal that make it heavy metal, and not something else?

Paul

The way I'm thinking of it is more of an attitude than a genre. That's why I say I'm a 'heavy metal guy'. I see it as part of my soul; as how I see the world, so it influences the way I approach anything musical. This is assuming I'm using music as a means of expression, and not keeping myself at a distance and being a pure technician, which I've often felt the need to do in order to satisfy teachers and the like (and it's painful for me to do it).

I doubt you're a fan of vocalists who scream and growl (like Sprechstimme, it's often an acquired taste), but as one such vocalist put it, "If you're asking me to get on stage and express myself, I HAVE to scream." Point being, it's not an aesthetic choice so much as an non-negotiable need. I would compare it most to Blues in that regard.

This doesn't mean I literally scream at the piano, but when I look at a piece of music for the first time, and hear it in my head, I get a certain vision of the piece that puts a smile on my face. If you tell me that's 'wrong', the smile disappears, and I'm no longer interested. I've tortured myself, twisted myself into knots, and almost killed my love of the piano trying to conform to others' aesthetic demands of me. So, as I've discovered, the aesthetic argument is moot, because I HAVE to play the way that makes me happy, or not at all.

[p2u_]

I doubt you're a fan of vocalists who scream and growl (like Sprechstimme, it's often an acquired taste), but as one such vocalist put it, "If you're asking me to get on stage and express myself, I HAVE to scream."

Actually, I have nothing against screaming as a way of expression, although I tend to prefer the times when people had to be real talents to make it to the top, as opposed to the contemporary "stars". For example, one of my favorites in this respect is still this guy: Screamin' Jay Hawkins, I Put a Spell on You (1956), and also Nazareth - Love Hurts (1976).

Paul

[virtuoso80]

Too bad you cant turn your amp up to 11 - but even then it might not be enough :-)   Actually I think Heavy metal has a certain boundary of what is acceptable just like classical or polka or whatever.  I have heard very poor heavy metal interpretations where the music turned into a pile of shredded, mindless, noise.  For me, with any music, too many notes is too many notes.

I often do want my piano 'louder', but that doesn't mean hitting the keys harder has the desired effect. I actually think pp to ppp is the piano's most profound region of sound. Constantly pushing hard in a loud section does not make the music 'heavier', as I've learned. I like the Horowitz approach to dynamics: He can go huge when he wants, but he saves it for particular moments. That gives a sense of scale you don't get if you play fff constantly.

Also, not to get too off topic, but I wonder if those here would consider something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGNb-YT5ECA mindless noise? Or how about something genre-bending like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwbEi1JRa7w. Both are noisy and chaotic, but hardly mindless IMO.

[virtuoso80]

Actually, I have nothing against screaming as a way of expression, although I tend to prefer the times when people had to be real talents to make it to the top, as opposed to the contemporary "stars". For example, one of my favorites in this respect is still this guy: Screamin' Jay Hawkins, I Put a Spell on You (1956), and also Nazareth - Love Hurts (1976).

Paul

I can't resist sharing some more: Mike Patton performing a John Zorn piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPsXRiV6yo4. He does a wide range of work in various genres. Most famous as a vocalist for rock band Faith No More, and as the sounds of the zombies in the film "I Am Legend." He also recently put out an collection of Italian pop standards from the 50's and 60's.

Something more mainstream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwuReRw23_0 Notice how he's a decent enough singer, but he's able to progress into screaming to various degrees. It's not a studio trick either, he sounds quite similar live.

Okay, let's bring it back to piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgZhiYff7nM I would actually agree that Mr. Rudess can be guilty of 'too many notes'. Also, can anyone tell me anything about his technique? I'm curious because he's so finger-y, and I'm not at all.

[p2u_]

I wonder if those here would consider something like youtube.com/watch?v=kGNb-YT5ECA mindless noise? Or how about something genre-bending like youtube.com/watch?v=xwbEi1JRa7w. Both are noisy and chaotic, but hardly mindless IMO.

An honest opinion? The first one makes me want to leave the YouTube page immediately, but I didn't have trouble listening to the second one till the end. Not something I would spend my money on.

Paul

[slobone]

Well people could admit that memorising music is hard, and since Beethoven didn't approve of playing from memory, Barenboim could use the sheet music and argue that's more authentic !

Well again, Beethoven didn't have a lot of choices -- he couldn't exactly play "by ear" 

[danielekstrom]

I feel like that line is very hard to draw and I think a lot of it has to do with the performer as well. It's a very complex and subjective issue, but here are some of my thoughts:

One performer may be able to pull something off that another performer shouldn't dare. Performer A may be able to make textual changes throughout a piece and give a brilliant new spin on it, while  performer B may try the same thing and sound inauthentic. It's also possible the opposite way. Some performers are much better off performing in more eccentric ways and should try hold that back. It's a matter of personality and finding what works for you.

I think it's also a matter of context and perception. If someone is scheduled to play at an all Bach recital, everyone has been playing in a more "historically informed" way all night, then someone comes on and gives an extremely romantic sounding interpretation. Maybe that interpretation sounds amazing, but it may not be as appreciated in that context since it is completely inconsistent with the atmosphere for the night.