perfect technique

[chopin2015]

So not that I like Lisitsa's music the most, but her fingers look good when she plays. Also, her pinkie is relaxed. What do you think the best way to achieve that is? Right now, I was just practicing a scale, and I concentrated on relaxing my hand every time I crossed over or changed fingering. It helps a little. Also, I will have to do more of concentrating on what my hand looks like when I play. What else?

How do you get your hands to look like they are barely moving? Like Zimmerman! I am still having to do a lot of work to play and you can tell it is because my hands are moving too much, i guess!

[ajspiano]

Your hand likes to work kind of in sync with itself..  such as that say, when you do a thumb pass if your pinky becomes tense and rises/curls this is probably in part not because you are failing to relax your 5th finger, but because the way you are executing the thumb and other fingers movements means it is easier to to do it with a raised tense 5th right now..  action and reaction.. and you do not have independent control over each finger.

You can correct it by adjusting technique in general, relating to everything you are doing not just the tense thing..  and/or you can work on holding type exercises, where you practice playing notes whilst always holding others.

Thal posted pdfs of the Dohnanyi exercises here, the first few may be enough for now - and you don't want to get caught up spending all your time on these kinds of things.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=14597.msg156210#msg156210

It is imperative that you maintain a light tough with these, don't press hard into the keys. Check yourself constantly, there will be a tendency to sub-conciously press harder with the held finger. FIGHT it..  go slowly at first, ensure that every note/chord is light and comfortable from your fingers through your hand/wrist/arm etc.

This will help with you playing in general, especially musical contrapuntal playing, as well as with general technique relating to hand shape/function... but its not a look - you will FEEL in control, and be able to generate a clear and even sound.

...........

Don't be so concerned with what it looks like. Your hands are a different shape to the blonde piano magician's. Sound/feel above look.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It shouldn't matter how it looks as long as you can play the music. 

I mean, when I play, my hands look like a drunk tarantula.  Disgusting, bleh.  But if it sounds good, who cares?!

[j_menz]

who cares?!

Real drunk tarantulas on the make? 

How do you get your hands to look like they are barely moving?

Don't be too concerned about what they look like, but the "barely moving" results from not making unneccessary movements.  Not, I think by taking an excessive movement and paring it down, but by taking stillness and generating the minimum movement necessary to produce the result you are after.

[ajspiano]

Don't be too concerned about what they look like, but the "barely moving" results from not making unneccessary movements.  Not, I think by taking an excessive movement and paring it down, but by taking stillness and generating the minimum movement necessary to produce the result you are after.

Adding to j_menz's advice here, that is a big part of why I suggested dohnanyi..  If you ground yourself on a note(s), it dramatically limits your available movement and forces you to be more efficient.. while also creating a permanent stop on certain subconscious movements that have nothing to do with the task at hand.

..alternatively you can play lots of fugues, and make sure you play them really well.. 

*actually that's not really an alternative - you should do that regardless of whether you do holding exercises.

[chopin2015]

Real drunk tarantulas on the make? 

Don't be too concerned about what they look like, but the "barely moving" results from not making unneccessary movements.  Not, I think by taking an excessive movement and paring it down, but by taking stillness and generating the minimum movement necessary to produce the result you are after.

Unneccessary movements and getting rid of these is a part of learning the piece and achieving good technique. It is impossible to play music correctly when i am forcing something with movements that are random and sketchy. My right hand is ok, but I need help with the left hand. Does anyone know a source with tons of left hand runs and scales? Also ranging in difficulty.

It's gonna take some time:( I gotta relearn all my pieces, almost. Haha! 

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but I feel like this should be addressed before I can move up a level.

Some pieces are fine, but my recent pieces really have this problem. I wonder if it is an injury? Could that be possible?

[j_menz]

Unneccessary movements and getting rid of these is a part of learning the piece and achieving good technique.

No. The order is wrong. That is starting with bad technique, excessive movement and trying to get rid of stuff. Start with nothing, no movement, stillness. Then work out the easiest/least movement neccessary. Do that, and no more.

[ajspiano]

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but I feel like this should be addressed before I can move up a level

I don't see that anyone said anything to the contrary..

[chopin2015]

No. The order is wrong. That is starting with bad technique, excessive movement and trying to get rid of stuff. Start with nothing, no movement, stillness. Then work out the easiest/least movement neccessary. Do that, and no more.

I agree. Its good to do that with every piece, in any case.

[outin]

I have spider hands too, but not sure which species and probably rather stoned than drunk...even my teacher commented something about spider legs once, then she noticed and seemed worried that I might be offended...

But what happens with my pinky is that it curles up when I play certain things... It annoyed me a lot when I saw videos of my playing and I spent time trying to get rid of it but it only caused tension and nothing happened. It looks exactly like with this pianist (look at 1:00 for example):

I am not sure whether I can actually help it, maybe it is a result of the way my tendons are and my small span. Since trying to get rid of it caused tension problems, I have decided not to try unless my teacher complains. I have enough other problems to work on and I will never play like Val anyway.

[ajspiano]

But what happens with my pinky is that it curles up when I play certain things...

Not that I'm advising everyone start doing it all the time..  but everything in its place..

The hand of the one vladamir horowitz in action - I believe the shot comes from a performance of Liszt's consolation 3..


..also, in explanation.. https://www.pianisttopianist.com/?p=601

[outin]

Not that I'm advising everyone start doing it all the time..  but everything in its place..

The hand of the one vladamir horowitz in action - I believe the shot comes from a performance of Liszt's consolation 3..


..also, in explanation.. https://www.pianisttopianist.com/?p=601

So do you think this is not necessarily caused by unnecessary tension like the notorius flying pinky issue?

[j_menz]

So do you think this is not necessarily caused by unnecessary tension

It seems to me that tension is something best identified by feel rather than by sight.  Of course, some people seem incapable of doing that (or just don't care til it's too late), but you identified tension when you tried to "fix" it - how did you recognise that? Touch or feel?

[ajspiano]

So do you think this is not necessarily caused by unnecessary tension like the notorius flying pinky issue?

Well obviously I cant really be sure what vladamir felt.. but his control is exquisite and he has command over the most difficult of repertoire..

it seems more likely that its deliberate when taking into consideration what Jura wrote - which I have tested and found to work as he says - though its not something that I have at all integrated into my own playing as yet.

[outin]

It seems to me that tension is something best identified by feel rather than by sight.  Of course, some people seem incapable of doing that (or just don't care til it's too late), but you identified tension when you tried to "fix" it - how did you recognise that? Touch or feel?

What's the difference?  

Trying to keep it down required constant effort and I actually got some pain after a while in the base of my pinky and wrist...

[outin]

Well obviously I cant really be sure what vladamir felt.. but his control is exquisite and he has command over the most difficult of repertoire..

Obviously I meant in my case, not Vladimir's 

[ajspiano]

Obviously I meant in my case, not Vladimir's 

Trying to keep it down required constant effort and I actually got some pain after a while in the base of my pinky and wrist...

Well..  you were probably trying to do it the wrong way...   

*more helpful comments on request.

[j_menz]

What's the difference?  

Trying to keep it down required constant effort and I actually got some pain after a while in the base of my pinky and wrist...

Oops, meant to say "sight or feel".  

Anyway, you've answered the question.

If you look around Youtube etc, you'll see various pianists doing extraordinaryily good things using a whole range of motions abnd positions. Clearly, they work for them.  You need to develop a sense of what feels right - not tense, not awkward, not uncomfortable - that allows you to play what you want as you want. If you do that, then what it looks like is of no consequence whatsoever. Nor does it matter whether or not it conforms to some particular school.  But you do need to use and develop that sense of feel, not just try and push through in the hope of it all working out in the end.

[j_menz]

Well..  you were probably trying to do it the wrong way...   

*more helpful comments on request.

You tease, you. 

[slobone]

Thal posted pdfs of the Dohnanyi exercises here, the first few may be enough for now - and you don't want to get caught up spending all your time on these kinds of things.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=14597.msg156210#msg156210

Don't forget to do Dohnanyi in different keys too, once you've mastered C major.

[ajspiano]

You tease, you. 

If you read between the lines my failure to attempt to saying anything more helpful is an expression of frustration at how difficult it is to get across in writing how to fix that..  when in person it can be solved in a matter of seconds.

[j_menz]

If you read between the lines

I always read between the lines. It's where the best bits are.

[ajspiano]

I always read between the lines. It's where the best bits are.

Indeed it is.
https://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/550x/31/2c/35/312c357001ee6cdf89a91fc31f627c0a.jpg
As demonstrated by this post.

[slobone]

And then there are the hands of Pogorelich...

[j_menz]

And then there are the hands of Pogorelich...

I think the word is "talons" when they do that.

[outin]

If you read between the lines my failure to attempt to saying anything more helpful is an expression of frustration at how difficult it is to get across in writing how to fix that..  when in person it can be solved in a matter of seconds.

Which of course implies that you do think it's a problem?

Anyway, have to trust my teacher, when I asked her she said I shouldn't worry about it and she doesn't have a habit to let things go... I also doubt this is something that could be fixed in a second

[ajspiano]

I think the word is "talons" when they do that.

he must have practiced with this

[ajspiano]

Which of course implies that you do think it's a problem?

well it depends    - is it directly impacting your ability to play what you are studying right now? so would it be worth addressing now or later or in another context... will it possibly resolve itself when presented with certain future repertoire...?

Anyway, have to trust my teacher, when I asked her she said I shouldn't worry about it and she doesn't have a habit to let things go...

Yes ofcourse, I havent actually seen what you are doing..

I also doubt this is something that could be fixed in a second

Perhaps not a "second" - but I would wager that I could have you doing it easily without effort/discomfort within 1-2 minutes...   of course you'd likely have to focus a lot and it would take some time at home to practice it in and make it habitual.

[j_menz]

he must have practiced with this

The ultimate answer to those endless "how do I get stronger fingers" threads? 

[ajspiano]

The ultimate answer to those endless "how do I get stronger fingers" threads? 

You'll be pleased to know I found it on an article titled "how can I help my 10 yr old become a piano virtuoso"

..thankfully as I got further into the article I was able to lift my jaw from the floor as it became apparent that it was explaining why such things are a terrible idea.

[outin]

If you look around Youtube etc, you'll see various pianists doing extraordinaryily good things using a whole range of motions abnd positions. Clearly, they work for them.  You need to develop a sense of what feels right - not tense, not awkward, not uncomfortable - that allows you to play what you want as you want. If you do that, then what it looks like is of no consequence whatsoever. Nor does it matter whether or not it conforms to some particular school.  But you do need to use and develop that sense of feel, not just try and push through in the hope of it all working out in the end.

I guess I should mention that I have a hederitary condition that affects the ability of my muscles to relax normally after action. Not a severe case, but it is often difficult for me to prevent and notice tension. I have worked really hard to learn to relax as much as possible while playing and my teacher has been happy with my progress lately but I doubt I will never be able to play in a naturally relaxed way that some people do.

But this pinky issue doesn't feel like tension really, it just seems to be the most efficient way to play certain things. It's not up all the time but does it very instinctively so I don't do it on purpose like Vladimir probably does.

[ajspiano]

I guess I should mention that I have a hederitary condition that affects the ability of my muscles to relax normally after action.

Now that is really interesting..  I want a student with that issue.

[outin]

Perhaps not a "second" - but I would wager that I could have you doing it easily without effort/discomfort within 1-2 minutes...   

Do what exactly? Stop ever lifting my pinky that way?

You are young and ambitious, but there are things beyond your abilities  

[outin]

Now that is really interesting..  I want a student with that issue.

Hmm...bad teacher wishing your students to have health issues... ]

[ajspiano]

Do what exactly? Stop ever lifting my pinky that way?

yes.

You are young and ambitious, but there are things beyond your abilities 

yes, but this isn't one of them..  (is that arrogant enough for you?  )

No, I don't mean you'd be able to walk out and it would never happen again after one short session. But I do believe that in that short space of time I could get you to execute it successfully in one particular context and give you the required knowledge to be able to work through it successfully over a more extended period in many others.

[ajspiano]

Hmm...bad teacher wishing your students to have health issues... ]

Forgive me for enjoying a challenge.

[outin]

No, I don't mean you'd be able to walk out and it would never happen again after one short session. But I do believe that in that short space of time I could get you to execute it successfully in one particular context and give you the required knowledge to be able to work through it successfully over a more extended period in many others.

Certainly I could learn to excute individual movements without doing that, but would make my playing better (in sound?). If not I am not sure if I care enough because obviously it doesn't give me any troubles afterwards...When I look at my playing, in some pieces I almost never do it and with some a lot.

[ajspiano]

I dont know what you currently sound like.

Better technique more than likely expands your sound palette, and allows you to learn passages faster than you were previously able to.

But it obviously has to be relevant at the time of study. There needs to be adequate pay off for the work involved. Thats what i was on about in the "it depends" paragraph i wrote before. It may benefit you to learn it now, it may benefit you to learn it later with a piece that demands it more seriously... there's too much to learn to try and cram it all in at once, and there may be more pressing issues for you.

[birba]

I guess I should mention that I have a hederitary condition that affects the ability of my muscles to relax normally after action. Not a severe case, but it is often difficult for me to prevent and notice tension. I have worked really hard to learn to relax as much as possible while playing and my teacher has been happy with my progress lately but I doubt I will never be able to play in a naturally relaxed way that some people do.

But this pinky issue doesn't feel like tension really, it just seems to be the most efficient way to play certain things. It's not up all the time but does it very instinctively so I don't do it on purpose like Vladimir probably does.

Years and years ago ( ahem!) i had a similar problem.  And to learn the right way of articulation, (relax after striking) i was on 4-note excercises for 6 months!  Speed?  First three months, one articulation at 30 on the metronome, working up to 60.  After that, one month, articulation every two notes.  Then, every three, then every four.  Just to point out that it IS possible like ajspiano says.

[chopin2015]

I guess I should mention that I have a hederitary condition that affects the ability of my muscles to relax normally after action. Not a severe case, but it is often difficult for me to prevent and notice tension. I have worked really hard to learn to relax as much as possible while playing and my teacher has been happy with my progress lately but I doubt I will never be able to play in a naturally relaxed way that some people do.

But this pinky issue doesn't feel like tension really, it just seems to be the most efficient way to play certain things. It's not up all the time but does it very instinctively so I don't do it on purpose like Vladimir probably does.

Then you should definitely work at a slow, deliberate pace. You might have a high risk for injury. I focus on my pinky and hands all day long now. I do curve my pinky in the right, but my left hand is so wrong right now! I am doing excersizes where I flex the pinkie in place while playing with other pinkies. I have a philosophy behind tension, and the right kind of tension.

Man while I was asleep, yall had a whole exciting conversation.

[outin]

Then you should definitely work at a slow, deliberate pace. You might have a high risk for injury.

No worries about that, I have learned what I can do and what not

Actually slow practice is not really efficient for me. The way it works is that with vigorous (even hard) exercise the muscles do loosen up and after maybe an hour or so my muscles start feeling like they should, soft and flexible. The more I work the better they are. But exercise does not benefit me like it should, because the muscles tense/cramp again during rest so the effect of physical exercise is never permanent. I sometimes have trouble getting up from the bed in the morning and walking, but in a couple of hours I may function normally for the whole day. The other symptom I have is muscle weakness which also causes problems with posture and all that is not very good for playing I guess...

I focus on my pinky and hands all day long now. I do curve my pinky in the right, but my left hand is so wrong right now! I am doing excersizes where I flex the pinkie in place while playing with other pinkies. I have a philosophy behind tension, and the right kind of tension.

How many pinkies do you have??

[outin]

Years and years ago ( ahem!) i had a similar problem.  And to learn the right way of articulation, (relax after striking) i was on 4-note excercises for 6 months!  Speed?  First three months, one articulation at 30 on the metronome, working up to 60.  After that, one month, articulation every two notes.  Then, every three, then every four.  Just to point out that it IS possible like ajspiano says.

But at what price?? I kind of like Ajs method (was it 2 seconds) more 

[chopin2015]

No worries about that, I have learned what I can do and what not

Actually slow practice is not really efficient for me. The way it works is that with vigorous (even hard) exercise the muscles do loosen up and after maybe an hour or so my muscles start feeling like they should, soft and flexible. The more I work the better they are. But exercise does not benefit me like it should, because the muscles tense/cramp again during rest so the effect of physical exercise is never permanent. I sometimes have trouble getting up from the bed in the morning and walking, but in a couple of hours I may function normally for the whole day. The other symptom I have is muscle weakness which also causes problems with posture and all that is not very good for playing I guess...


How many pinkies do you have??

Ouch, this is exactly why you need to stretch your warm up out, from least to greatest. When your muscles are cramped, massage them and ONLY I REPEAT ONLY do slow movements!

What I meant is, you need to think of your warm up routine. If you dont have one, thats fine. But the thing about tension is that it is a protective mechanism for our bodies. When you sit down at the piano first, you are tense. There are only physical ways to relieve physical tension. Even if you think you can meditate into free movement, your mind will still have to do a lot of work. Without a warm up...and this is the thing about warm ups:they can be wrong. You have to know what warming up is. Think:what is the goal for today's practice? Is it playing through a presto section? Then your warm up should be slow and deliberate. Probably work on slower and shorter pieces for a while before you will actually be warm. Never start with a fast piece. The tension will kick in much sooner than if you work your way through it, and you will have a bigger cramp. Its like a massage. You need at least an hour sometimes.  If your goals are different, you still should plan everything out.

If you are having such a difficult time getting up, i do too. I have depression and adhd(or you could call it bipolar...haha)
It affects my physical state a great deal. When I dont feel good, I take a really long time to start the day(im not allowed caffeine). But, when it finally kicks in, it is wonderful, and totally worth the wait, meaning you wait for your body to be ready, you prepare your mind and plan/think/talk to yourself while your body is relaxed.

It all should take a very long time and every little thing is a huge deal! Naturally! LOL

Hey Outin, what is your schedule like? Do you work and then practice in the evening? On the weekends, are you free to practice?

And i only have 2 pinkies hahaa

[outin]

If you are having such a difficult time getting up, i do too. I have depression and adhd(or you could call it bipolar...haha)
It affects my physical state a great deal. When I dont feel good, I take a really long time to start the day(im not allowed caffeine). But, when it finally kicks in, it is wonderful, and totally worth the wait, meaning you wait for your body to be ready, you prepare your mind and plan/think/talk to yourself while your body is relaxed.

Poor thing, no caffeine?? 

Yes, the mental part is important...Because I need all my mental strength to get going when every part of my body tells me that I should just stay in bed...

Hey Outin, what is your schedule like? Do you work and then practice in the evening? On the weekends, are you free to practice?

And i only have 2 pinkies hahaa

What a pity, I guess it would be fun to see you play with some extra ones

I do practice after work, not long if I come home late because of the neighbours (today I got home around 7) unless I have something I really want to do. On weekends I can usually practice all day...

I really am a night person, so if I didn't have a day job I could do much better. When I didn't work like I do now I used to do a lot of creative work between 10pm and 2am. Studying also. That time I am usually at my brightest. So no wonder I have a hard time learning to play because I miss that window of opportunity every day 

[chopin2015]

Poor thing, no caffeine?? 

Yes, the mental part is important...Because I need all my mental strength to get going when every part of my body tells me that I should just stay in bed...

What a pity, I guess it would be fun to see you play with some extra ones

I do practice after work, not long if I come home late because of the neighbours (today I got home around 7) unless I have something I really want to do. On weekends I can usually practice all day...

I really am a night person, so if I didn't have a day job I could do much better. When I didn't work like I do now I used to do a lot of creative work between 10pm and 2am. Studying also. That time I am usually at my brightest. So no wonder I have a hard time learning to play because I miss that window of opportunity every day 

It's true, morning practice is awesome! I take evening classes because I feel I can get more practice in the morning.
Boy, I'm tired now! Working my butt off, fixing my pinkie.

[ajspiano]

But at what price?? I kind of like Ajs method (was it 2 seconds) more 

I said i could show you what to do, quickly. I don't recall saying anything about you then performing the task quickly.

[ajspiano]

Actually slow practice is not really efficient for me. The way it works is that with vigorous (even hard) exercise the muscles do loosen up and after maybe an hour or so my muscles start feeling like they should, soft and flexible. The more I work the better they are. But exercise does not benefit me like it should, because the muscles tense/cramp again during rest so the effect of physical exercise is never permanent. I sometimes have trouble getting up from the bed in the morning and walking, but in a couple of hours I may function normally for the whole day. The other symptom I have is muscle weakness which also causes problems with posture and all that is not very good for playing I guess...

Super interesting.

Obviously that is your experience and i wont argue with it when i have a lack of understanding about what makes your brain muscles behave differently to the norm.

It does seem so backward though. I find the practice involves a myriad of tempos, but the exact execution simply must be done slowly at one point or another.. it has to be learnt at a pace where it can be focused on. Past a certain tempo it needs to have been ingrained into your brain. Otherwise you practice slight (or significant) physical errors.

[chopin2015]

Super interesting.

Obviously that is your experience and i wont argue with it when i have a lack of understanding about what makes your brain muscles behave differently to the norm.

It does seem so backward though. I find the practice involves a myriad of tempos, but the exact execution simply must be done slowly at one point or another.. it has to be learnt at a pace where it can be focused on. Past a certain tempo it needs to have been ingrained into your brain. Otherwise you practice slight (or significant) physical errors.

Myriad of tempos, awesome! I feel like music and tempo are difficult to do exactly the same every time you play, so even though slow practice helps learn to play to tempo easier(sometimes?) It also builds a safety net for when you need to perform but are not warmed up. However, fast practice is just something so few people should do without all the experience. Not just because of the errors you are playing through, but also because a lot of slow practice with a little push here and there builds muscles and flexibility, too. But sudden fast practice without being physically prepared(i bet your mind can push your body much more than the other way around) is just scary. Nothing wrong with fast practice, but it works best at the peak of your practice not the beginning, i assume.

[ajspiano]

Myriad of tempos, awesome! I feel like music and tempo are difficult to do exactly the same every time you play, so even though slow practice helps learn to play to tempo easier(sometimes?) It also builds a safety net for when you need to perform but are not warmed up. However, fast practice is just something so few people should do without all the experience. Not just because of the errors you are playing through, but also because a lot of slow practice with a little push here and there builds muscles and flexibility, too. But sudden fast practice without being physically prepared(i bet your mind can push your body much more than the other way around) is just scary. Nothing wrong with fast practice, but it works best at the peak of your practice not the beginning, i assume.

A semi-constant flip between fast and slow (and some other speeds in between) is what I was refering to.

Small sections (single hand position figures) done full pace, or even way beyond tempo as a method of finding movement patterns that function at high tempos - movements that will then be practiced, refined and connected at slow tempos..

..either in total musical slow motion, or sometimes in slow/fast motion (where the physical movements (transitions to notes and key strokes) are as fast as possible without destroying the quality of movement, but there is an extended gap between notes of complete stillness/comfort.

Slow but fast is part of what birba's exercise was doing no doubt.. perhaps he can confirm.

And to learn the right way of articulation, (relax after striking) i was on 4-note excercises for 6 months!  Speed?  First three months, one articulation at 30 on the metronome, working up to 60.

[hfmadopter]

Which of course implies that you do think it's a problem?

Anyway, have to trust my teacher, when I asked her she said I shouldn't worry about it and she doesn't have a habit to let things go... I also doubt this is something that could be fixed in a second

I think the point is, if it even needs fixing. As we develop we sometimes take on a habit that is not detrimental to anything including ourselves and feels comfortable. And sometimes that depends on the piece or passage we are playing. Having a flying pinkie is one thing a curled one another. In another post you mentioned something about being doable jointed as well and this may be playing into some of this. To me if you can articulate the music and feel comfortable doing it, I agree with your teacher don't worry about it at least for now..