How to develop "touch"

[awesom_o]

well, I've spent a decade developing my touch, among many other things.

I think Dima has hit the nail on the head several times in this post. Often, movement which might seem natural or even efficient at slow speeds in less demanding repertoire is not going to work in advanced repertoire at more demanding speeds.

Thruthfully, being a great pianist is about how well you play everything-not just the fast, thorny passages. It's how well you control the voicing, the pulse, the texture, the phrasing, the line, the articulation. It's about how big your tool kit is, and the spiritual restraint with which you use those tools to render the music of the masters.

[dima_76557]

I don't want to send this thread way OT but something happens in childhood around age 7 which precludes attaining true virtuosity if it hasn't already begun.  As the Jesuit's say "Give me a boy till the age of 7 and I'll show you the man."  In other words there's a fairly narrow window for hard-wiring a virtuoso - it closes around age 7.

Said when people thought the Earth was flat and that children's futures were preordained. They are not, of course. Human kind has learned much other stuff since that time. This 7 years is especially not limit for learning of motoric skills for piano playing.

Why the obsession with virtuosi anyway?  You're only missing out on about .01% of the total piano literature - if that!

1) Required repertoire in music colleges, academies and conservatories. No choice. You have to play that stuff to prove smth to jury of professionals without sense of humor and with minimum tolerance for "weaknesses". You also have to suggest that you can play easily 10 times faster, 10 times louder, etc. Transcendental technique, not mechanical.

2) Virtuoso playing is not only play fast and loud "warhorses". Can also be whispering "ppp" in Schubert piece that carries to all corners in back of hall or voice leading in difficult Shostakovich fugue, etc. Please read "what makes a great pianist" here:
https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/belkina/MonDepotPublic/Piano/PianoTechnique.html#Great_Pianists
To do all that, you have to have super command over body and over instrument, explore extremes of human posibilities, make instrument respond regardless of material difficulties. Musical taste, knowledge, artificial "interpretation" - not enough to get people's attention in hall.

[hardy_practice]

Just listen to awesom.  He's been there, done that.  I can't stop laughing!

[awesom_o]

I believe the piano is at the same time extremely simple yet extremely complex.

Simple: you can only control the volume and/or the length of each note. Whether you are Horowitz or Joe Shmo, this is how the piano works.

Complex: as soon as you add than one note into the picture, you'll begin to notice that Joe Shmo doesn't sound like Horowitz.

[awesom_o]

Horowitz believed strongly in the concept of a master touch. It is called portato. Very few pianists have it. Let me explain.

Portato is known by many names. Nonlegato is perhaps the best, most descriptive term. It is halfway in between legato and staccato.

Horowitz had great staccato and great legato. All he had to do to produce either one was just alter the note lengths of his basic portato touch.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just listen to awesom.  He's been there, done that.  I can't stop laughing!

what planet are you on? why is it funny that another poster plays well? I'm picturing the kind of bizarre empty laughter that you'd expect from a drunk on a bench. More to the point, have you done that? Have you even made a serious bid to TRY to- before casting cheap talk about?

[awesom_o]

There are many ways to develop your portato touch at the keyboard.
Many great pianists find the following method of study helpful, once a certain standard has already been reached:

Practice slowly with NO pedal, even if you are playing a Chopin Nocturne or Brahms Intermezzo (many people realize they need to practice without pedal in their Mozart and Scarlatti, but not so much in the later stuff: good pianists can play almost anything without pedal and still have good legato control with the fingers.

Listen to every note carefully to evaluate its length and volume within the context of the piece. How effectively can you listen to yourself while playing? This is what most training at the advanced level focuses on.

I feel quite strongly that the intrinsic muscles in the hands are what forms the basis of a sound playing mechanism. The arms have to be entirely free, yes. But their roll is to provide logistical support for the hand. The hand needs to be many places all over the keyboard and it is attached to the arm-so we need to use the arms to get the hands where they need to go.

The fingertips are the soldiers themselves-the men in the trenches who execute the orders from on high.

[awesom_o]

Every student understands certain aspects of playing the piano intuitively while struggling more with others. This is normal. A good teacher teaches each student differently depending on what that pupil needs.

There are different approaches to great technique but there are certain similarities between all great techniques as well.

Problems arise when students interpret metaphors too literally. In those situations, teacher should be more responsible and realize that x pupil doesn't learn through metaphors and prefers more of a logic-based approach.

Some students don't do as well when you try to explain things scientifically-they do better with linguistic metaphors to help relate the playing process to their already-present experience of the world.

At the end of the day I DO feel there is a grain of truth in the idea that there ARE no great teachers-only great students. Neuhaus?

[hardy_practice]

what planet are you on? why is it funny that another poster plays well? I'm picturing the kind of bizarre empty laughter that you'd expect from a drunk on a bench. More to the point, have you done that? Have you even made a serious bid to TRY to- before casting cheap talk about?

Either you are totally joyless, or have lost all memory! (though I'm sure it's the former) We're told the internet is a vast ocean, then why is it more like a Sartre play? No Exit (to be precise)

[awesom_o]

personally I would like it if everyone could make an effort to get along. Engaging in vitriol over the internet is behaviour which is not suitable for musicians of any calibre.

[nyiregyhazi]

There are many ways to develop your portato touch at the keyboard.
Many great pianists find the following method of study helpful, once a certain standard has already been reached:

Practice slowly with NO pedal, even if you are playing a Chopin Nocturne or Brahms Intermezzo (many people realize they need to practice without pedal in their Mozart and Scarlatti, but not so much in the later stuff: good pianists can play almost anything without pedal and still have good legato control with the fingers.

Listen to every note carefully to evaluate its length and volume within the context of the piece. How effectively can you listen to yourself while playing? This is what most training at the advanced level focuses on.

I feel quite strongly that the intrinsic muscles in the hands are what forms the basis of a sound playing mechanism. The arms have to be entirely free, yes. But their roll is to provide logistical support for the hand. The hand needs to be many places all over the keyboard and it is attached to the arm-so we need to use the arms to get the hands where they need to go.

The fingertips are the soldiers themselves-the men in the trenches who execute the orders from on high.

I basically agree,  but I'd just say that it doesn't strictly have to be non-legato. Initially, I think the best bet is to get maximum physical connection and prolong it. To get clarity, I like to get students to lift each finger to steady the last finger BUT to return it to the key before sounding it (all the while keeping the last finger stable, with no knuckle droop). From here, you can get a very clear sound in literal legato and it also prepares for the option of marginally detached articulation (which can be very difficult to do without arm pressures/tightness, early on).

From a literal point of view, I'm not convinced that legato vs portato directly matters when pedalling. I think there's a snappy clear quality that is less natural in literal legato, but still possible to get. Although horowitz used portato a lot, he still had that razor sharp quality in truer legato. When pianists detach too much,they miss horowitz's long lines.

[hardy_practice]

Horowitz believed strongly in the concept of a master touch. It is called portato. Very few pianists have it. Let me explain.

Have you read CPE Bach?  If so, is that portato?  I take it you're talking about the end of the note?  Whereas so many concentrate on the beginning?

[awesom_o]

Other than the solfegietto , I'm not very familiar with the works of CPE Bach.

I think far too many pianists get caught up in their ideas about how to play the beginning of notes, rather than the much, much more important task of how to get from one note to the next.

Some famous pianist said (was it Brendull?) it isn't so much how I play the notes as how I play the space in between the notes.

[nyiregyhazi]

Have you read CPE Bach?  If so, is that portato?  I take it you're talking about the end of the note?  Whereas so many concentrate on the beginning?

For me, it's the middle. It's not about the disconnect but about the moment of quality connection at the keybed (no matter how short). Miss that and you have a hard time making any sense of a meaningful musical line. It creates a position where the next will be prepared to operate with control. I constantly have to remind students to look for this moment of contact. As soon as they forget, they lose the even quality of sound and the sound goes all over the place.

This issue is scarcely different in legato or portato, btw.

[hardy_practice]

Is this portato?  I'm no fan but this impressed me:

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

[awesom_o]

Everything Glenn Gould does is portato. Legato and staccato are just the extreme ends of portato. This is what Horowitz and I are trying to tell you guys (well-he died the year I was born but he's still trying to tell you that from up in Heaven). Think if it not as three separate processes but rather a spectrum with two ends and a middle.

[hardy_practice]

Yes, it's music to my ears.  I really do think it crippled him though - physical he wasn't doing it with the right coordination.

[awesom_o]

Perhaps. It could have been a combination of many things that killed him. I think most times when a human being dies it's from a combination of things, unless it's just a bullet to the head or a fall off of a cliff. Then it was definitely only one thing.

Had Glenn lived longer, he would have likely given up regular playing and recording in favour of pursuing his interest in conducting, as well as completing the many unfinished compositions he had begun throughout his lifetime.

[awesom_o]

He was not a man of good health in general-he suffered a spinal injury early on in his life, and suffered from chronic pain and hypocondriasis as a result thereafter.

He took a wide variety of prescription and other drugs, often simultaneously, which can lead to severe side effects.

I don't think his technical skill on the piano is what shortened his life.

[birba]

Did you know that gould said he was going to die on his 50th birthday and that's exactly when he died?

[hardy_practice]

I don't think his technical skill on the piano is what shortened his life.

Agreed, it was the cocktail of prescription drugs that killed him.  Still, I sense his wish to play 'portato' with the technique he had damaged him.

Here's CPE Bach: 'Tones which are neither detached, connected, nor fully held [i.e. marked as such] are sounded for half their value unless the abbreviation Ten. (hold) is written over them, in which case they must be held fully.'  In other words, where there is no indication make them half value.  CPE did mean something else by portato though - he meant the slurs over the dots.

[awesom_o]

  I'm sure Glenn Gould would have been really, really interested in your ideas about how to play portato. Methinks the onus lies on you to show us the results of your methods. Gould has certainly left a sufficient discography to rank among the 20th century's top pianists.

His life, while short by our standards today, was longer than that of Mozart or Chopin. Sometimes the brightest stars burn out the fastest.

Other things killed him-we've established that. He died of a stroke, not of portato-tumouritis.

[hardy_practice]

Are you aware of his playing induced injuries?

[nyiregyhazi]

personally I would like it if everyone could make an effort to get along. Engaging in vitriol over the internet is behaviour which is not suitable for musicians of any calibre.

I prefer to take a positive outlook. Negativity is reserved exclusively for a single poster who is personally unaccomplished yet who falsely tries to portray expertise that he does not posses. A huge proportion of the advice he tries to give is directly responsible for his lack of accomplishment, as you said yourself about one of his comments, earlier.

Personally I'd sooner see him banned (as he has already been under multiple accounts) than have to warn against the tripe that he posts to unsuspecting members, who may be unaware of quite how low his personal standards are.

[awesom_o]

Are you aware of his playing induced injuries?

I am aware he developed an aversion to the concert stage and cancelled appearances on various different grounds. Playing the piano *well* can be an extreme activity: Gould certainly pushed things to the limits.

His injuries certainly didn't prevent him from leaving a vast output of recordings. Any RSI's he may have experienced were nothing compared to say, Fleisher.

Pianists are a bit like professional athletes (albeit of the smaller muscle groups). Saying Glenn Gould got an RSI so his technique isn't healthy is a little bit like saying Agassi felt a bit sore in his elbow one morning so that means you, as an amateur, woudn't want to have his stroke.

[hardy_practice]

This is worth reading: https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/glenngould/028010-4020.17-e.html of course Mr Fraser goes bizarrely further: https://www.pianotechnique.net/on-glenn-goulds-piano-technique.html

We're in agreement that that level of playing pushes at the physical boundaries.   What athlete has ever got through their career without the occasional injury?  Maybe he pushed too far, but then, maybe he should have used more of CPE Bach's technique (more flexor oriented).  Beethoven was taught from CPE's book and demanded Czerny teach his nephew from it. 

[awesom_o]

I really like Alan Fraser and think he's one of the few out there who really understands this subject matter well.

I have just recorded the op. 10 and 25 from the exact same bench height as Gould (14''). I prefer to be between 15-16 inches for certain other repertoire that I'm working on. So far no need to soak my hands in scalding hot water every 20 minutes 

Not sure if I agree with Mr. Fraser about this style of technique not working well for 'big romantic sound'. I think there's quite a bit more similarity between Gould and Horowitz's technique than meets the eye. They just played different repertoire, with a very different approach artistically.

I think my op. 10 and 25 contain plenty of 'big romantic sound'.
Besides playing a lot of French, English and German Baroque I play quite a bit of Rachmaninov and Medtner, not to mention plenty of the in-between stuff-Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Schumann, Debussy and Ravel.

I personally believe that there is much more similarity between harpischord technique and REAL modern piano technique than quite a few people out there but..... to each his own, I guess.

[awesom_o]

And yes, I am familiar with Ostwald's work too. I actually had a piano lesson with his wife, who was a pianist, when I was 10 years old!

[hardy_practice]

I personally believe that there is much more similarity between harpischord technique and REAL modern piano technique than quite a few people out there but..... to each his own, I guess.

100% with you there only CPE Bach wasn't that flattering toward harpsicordists.  His thing was clavichord.

[hardy_practice]

Engaging in vitriol over the internet is behaviour which is not suitable for musicians of any calibre.

Agreed.

[nyiregyhazi]

I really like Alan Fraser and think he's one of the few out there who really understands this subject matter well.

I have just recorded the op. 10 and 25 from the exact same bench height as Gould (14''). I prefer to be between 15-16 inches for certain other repertoire that I'm working on. So far no need to soak my hands in scalding hot water every 20 minutes 

Not sure if I agree with Mr. Fraser about this style of technique not working well for 'big romantic sound'. I think there's quite a bit more similarity between Gould and Horowitz's technique than meets the eye. They just played different repertoire, with a very different approach artistically.

I think my op. 10 and 25 contain plenty of 'big romantic sound'.
Besides playing a lot of French, English and German Baroque I play quite a bit of Rachmaninov and Medtner, not to mention plenty of the in-between stuff-Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Schumann, Debussy and Ravel.

I personally believe that there is much more similarity between harpischord technique and REAL modern piano technique than quite a few people out there but..... to each his own, I guess.

Alan fraser sits very low himself. I think his criticism of gould is to do with the style of finger movement.

[nyiregyhazi]

.

[awesom_o]

True. Do you know how low? I'd be interested to know!

[hardy_practice]

I basically agree,  but I'd just say that it doesn't strictly have to be non-legato.

It does as far as Chopin is concerned.  He always started pupils on staccato (though I'd hazard a guess it was closer to awesom's portato).   It was far more important to him that the hand/fingers stayed within their conformation. 

[nyiregyhazi]

It does as far as Chopin is concerned.  He always started pupils on staccato (though I'd hazard a guess it was closer to awesom's portato).   It was far more important to him that the hand/fingers stayed within their conformation. 

If you feel that it's a "rule" simply because chopin taught that way (in a context that we cannot fully know), it explains a lot. Also, I have no idea why legato would change the formation of the hand any more than staccato.

[nyiregyhazi]

True. Do you know how low? I'd be interested to know!

I forget now, but he does mention somewhere, I think.

[pts1]

Hi,I have been playing the piano on and off for years without a teacher.so have lots of bad habits Sad I´m now learning with a teacher which is great.My problem is that I can learn a piece fairly quickly,so I can play the notes but the whole thing doesn´t sound like music! In my head I can sing the piece with feeling but it just doesn´t come across when I play.The piece I am working on is Schuman´s Dreams,but it sounds more like anightmare when I play it! Do you have any suggestions for learning lightness of touch.It seems I can only play pp or FF.I can´t do anything in between Huh
Many thanks

Well, this thread has gotten in way deep over the OP's head and question, so I'll try and give him a bit of the advice he seeks.

OK... you want to play Schumann's Traumeri out of the Kinderszenen (sp. forgive me)

First, you need to sit so your elbow's are at least level with the keyboard, and preferably (until you're able to really figure what's best for you, about an inch higher)... this will give the arms just enough leverage so the hands and forearms will feel like they are "floating" on the keys.

Second, try and make all movements from ON the key... don't lift or hit the keys... place your fingers ON the keys and pull down the key with fingers only just enough to produce sound.

The quicker you pull down your finger the louder the sound... the slower, the softer..

Place your hands on these keys     E  F#  G#  A#  C, and without lifting play each note, one hand at a time, one finger at a time,  until you can do this from ON the key with just the finger pad/tip and successfully play in different dynamics.... soft to loud and back, for instance.

Once you have produced a sound, all effort should cease and the relaxed finger will "pop" back up due to the nature of the hand and the key pushing your finger back up.

This is the basis of all piano playing... being able to control the finger on the key to pull it down and produce the desired sound.

When you can do this little exercise successfully (and make this a daily thing) TRANSFER this skill to the Schumann piece.

You need a good fingering, and just going over the first few notes, as I recall them, you start on middle C with the second finger of the right hand then play the F above it with the fifth as you simultaneously play the low F with your left hand with the fifth finger.

Do JUST this much using the method I described above until you "like" the sound you are producing.

Then move on to the next few notes/chords, etc.

Once you can do this with confidence and predictability, you've learned a lot!

Baby steps.

This probably doesn't seem like much to you, but it is really quite a lot and pianists all through their lives continually work from this basic premise of sound control with tiny precise efficient movements.

[dima_76557]

@ pts1:

Excellent instruction. May I add?
Paul (p2u_) explained me that key for quickest way of learning for ALL piano motorics is "fast motion, but slow sequence". Brain, muscles and nerve system remember such training best. Slow sequence was maybe not clear enough from your post. Thank you for your patience.

[pts1]

@ dima

I'm quite happy for you to add your thoughts.

"fast motion, but slow sequence"...

By this I think you mean the time between playing the notes... correct?

As you know, trying to help someone with playing piano in words is tricky! ha

So I appreciate your clarifying this important point. 

[awesom_o]

@ pts1:

Excellent instruction. May I add?
Paul (p2u_) explained me that key for quickest way of learning for ALL piano motorics is "fast motion, but slow sequence". Brain, muscles and nerve system remember such training best. Slow sequence was maybe not clear enough from your post. Thank you for your patience.

This is the essence of the style of technique I studied under many great teachers. Play slowly, but articulate fast, jump quickly to the right notes and hover over them for a split second in order for your brain to register the jump.

Fast motion, but slow sequence. I really like that.

[dima_76557]

"fast motion, but slow sequence"...

By this I think you mean the time between playing the notes... correct?

Yes. Very slow practice but with fast articulation. This gives VERY clear image to brain and minimum repetitions needed to remember sequence of movements.

[timothy42b]

pts1,
I think Abby just rolled over in her grave.

One thing I think is missed in this conversation is the learning style of the individual.

Some people do very well with the "inner game" focus on results.  Others do much better with a more analytical focus on mechanics. 

I've come to believe this difference is neurologically hardwired, though I know some here disagree. 

[pts1]

The idea of fast or quick motion and slow sequence is the basis of Glenn Gould's "finger tapping" exercise. I'm sure you all know he had an unrivaled technique, well surpassing Horowitz in classical literature, IMO.

Gould's teacher would have him place his fingers on the keys to be played then very quickly tap the finger tip so that it quickly played the key at which time all effort ceased and the finger popped back up due to the key and hand/finger anatomy.

Other pianists talked about the "electric" quick quality or "quick little explosion" of the finger tip joint pulling the key down.

This, of course, is all designed to create an automatic and extremely efficient mechanical method of producing sound with the most concise movement and least effort possible.

This is the only way to play at a professional level and is the true aspect of technique all professionals have in common, regardless of how they acquired it.

I know everyone knows all this probably, but its always worth repeating, IMHO.

[pts1]

I think Abby just rolled over in her grave.

Oh, my! I hope she isn't uncomfortable! 

In my little description or tutorial, I really can't cover everything -- which is always part of the problem, not the cure, IMHO.

I mean this seriously... when learning complicated physical tasks... the fewer words the better!

Demonstration and emulation, mimicry, etc., are best, IMHO.

That is, after all, how we learn to walk as toddlers -- an EXTREMELY hard task to conquer -- and we are only at a barely verbal thought cognitive level!

IMHO, thinking and analysis is way over rated and can easily get in the way of complicated tasks if over done.

[hardy_practice]

Gould's teacher would have him place his fingers on the keys to be played then very quickly tap the finger tip so that it quickly played the key at which time all effort ceased and the finger popped back up due to the key and hand/finger anatomy.

Other pianists talked about the "electric" quick quality or "quick little explosion" of the finger tip joint pulling the key down.

This, of course, is all designed to create an automatic and extremely efficient mechanical method of producing sound with the most concise movement and least effort possible.

Yes, but how do you get the finger down without the help of the other hand?  There's more than one way to skin that particular cat and IMHO Gould chose the wrong way.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, but how do you get the finger down without the help of the other hand?  There's more than one way to skin that particular cat and IMHO Gould chose the wrong way.

That might be a pertinent argument- were it not for the fact that animals can be trained to move by this style of manipulation. When the brain experiences a path of movement, it tends to discover how to perform that with active muscle use (but generally way more efficiently due to the ease of having experienced the movement passively). good hands on teaching depends almost entirely on this same premise- of experiencing a movement before instigating it yourself

the thing I don't get about the tapping is that it tends to cause collapse of the joint during depression- which makes for an experience of inefficient movement. It's very hard to tap in a way that avoids that. I prefer to grab the finger around the end joint from both sides and bring it down that way. It educates the finger in effortless stability with no risk of buckling. When playing poorly, coming back to this exercise always makes a big difference very quickly.

[dima_76557]

pts1,
I think Abby just rolled over in her grave.

One thing I think is missed in this conversation is the learning style of the individual.

Some people do very well with the "inner game" focus on results.  Others do much better with a more analytical focus on mechanics.  

I've come to believe this difference is neurologically hardwired, though I know some here disagree.  

Yes and no. Depends on what you mean with "neurologically hardwired".

I think problem is not how student thinks but in how teacher teaches his discoveries FOR EVERYBODY. Some teachers in past, for a sample, discovered some new way for themselves (arm weight, torso, inner game, Ideokinetics, etc.) but forgot about their previous training (finger activity development) that did not work for them on its own.

They then teach only their new discovery (arm weight, torso, inner game, Ideokinetics, etc.), thinking that what they were taught before (fingers) should be completely rejected as ineffective, even if new student has not been through finger activity development. This is big mistake, of course, because it gives very poor results for new and untrained student. Reverse also happens: person discovers magic of finger tips and rejects role of arm weight completely. Moving alone with empty brain also happens very often, but it is almost always flacid motions in fast sequence, which makes it sound "mechanical".

Same with inner game: it works for ALL artists but there must be solid basic neurological wires present already to be effective. Training of pts1 is not "thinking about mechanics", it is baby learning of movements and reflexes, very primitive, but nature's solution for motoric skills. It is training of reflexes and will power, not gymnastics. "Thinking" or just "imagining result" at this stage without proper neurological foundation can block development as in case of OP.

[hardy_practice]

When the brain experiences a path of movement, it tends to discover how to perform that with active muscle use (but generally way more efficiently due to the ease of having experienced the movement passively). good hands on teaching depends almost entirely on this same premise- of experiencing a movement before instigating it yourself

I'd really need to see your evidence for that.  It's not the same experience as the efferent pathway isn't innervated.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'd really need to see your evidence for that.  It's not the same experience as the efferent pathway isn't innervated.

I already told you. Training of animals.

[dima_76557]

I'd really need to see your evidence for that.  It's not the same experience as the efferent pathway isn't innervated.

Problem is: what is "evidence"? This method is used in Chinese circus with good success for acrobats to learn virtuoso acrobat movements very quickly. Do you consider that evidence? A Chinese trainer of acrobat children showed this principle to Alberto Guerrero, Glen Gould's teacher, who simply implemented it without thinking.

Chinese and Japanese trainers rarely explain why you have to train something in a certain way in martial arts, for a sample. They just say: do this or that because they are masters and know from long experience that it works. If you start asking questions, they will kindly smile, turn around or send you away and tell you never to come back. Knowing why is not important for good results, especially for students. He/she is humble and does what is told.

P.S.: Besides, the training principle may be correct but the (pseudo)scientific explanation may be filled with incorrect assumptions. This is the case in most piano "methods". Story of Guerrero finger tapping is here: https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/tapping.html