Ravel Ondine

[rachmaninoff_forever]

From measures 5-8, the right hand pattern changes.  But when I hear people play this, some people change, but others don't. 

Also apparently Robert Casadesus said that Ravel told him that the pattern shouldn't change.  And the same thing with Some guy named Paul Badura-Skoda, Rave told him to play the same pattern.

What do I do?

[birba]

Agosti told me the same thing.  But i play it like it's written, anyway.  I'm used to that subtle change and i like it.

[birba]

"Some guy named  paul badura-skoda" ?   How easily we forget, alas...

[pianist1976]

According to Henle's brand new Urtext edition, which is based for the very first time on the manuscript (I also think Peters' new edition also is) and Ravel's corrected prints, the pattern never changes. Those changes are due to an engraver's mistake on the first (and greatly spread) edition.

Also agree with Birba: Badura-Skoda is not just "Some Guy" 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Also agree with Birba: Badura-Skoda is not just "Some Guy" 

You mean he's a girl?

[david456103]

i guess either is fine, i hear both about equally often.

[birba]

You mean he's a girl?

Now i know you're kidding.   

[chopin2015]

I'm pretty sure it changes. It's not just the first 5-8 measures, look at measures 25 and then 26. lol

I forgot about this piece!

[birba]

But there it's a question of an inner voice accompaniment.  It's not really feasible any other way.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I'm pretty sure it changes. It's not just the first 5-8 measures, look at measures 25 and then 26. lol

I forgot about this piece!

Let's be Ondine buddies!

How far are you?

[andreslr6]

I have the Alfred edition and there it gives a good explanation of why the pattern changes, but if IIRC, like others have said, the original intention was that the pattern kept the same always.

[chopin2015]

Let's be Ondine buddies!

How far are you?

Ok! I think in my book it's like 91 measures long and i stopped at 71 a few months back. Don't be afraid to try it a couple times and don't let it keep you from being productive! But a few bars at a time is always harmless. Do you have a book with fingerings in it? Also, I learnt the 1st movement of sonatine in very few sessions, so I recommend looking at that for funsies, too! It has beautiful chords and after listening to it, there are inner voices and textures, bass and melody you will learn about.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Ok! I think in my book it's like 91 measures long and i stopped at 71 a few months back. Don't be afraid to try it a couple times and don't let it keep you from being productive! But a few bars at a time is always harmless. Do you have a book with fingerings in it? Also, I learnt the 1st movement of sonatine in very few sessions, so I recommend looking at that for funsies, too! It has beautiful chords and after listening to it, there are inner voices and textures, bass and melody you will learn about.

Right now I'm at...

39.

*** it the second half of 38 is tough. 

I have the sonatine as well, I'll look at it.

[chopin2015]

Right now I'm at...

39.

*** it the second half of 38 is tough. 

I have the sonatine as well, I'll look at it.

Sweet! Hey, that was fast! When did u start it? I am not currently working on it, as I am preparing a recording of ballade no 1 this weekend and a couple(5 ) new etudes by chopin are what I have been practicing lately. But i would like to finish ondine some day(i found mephisto valse much easier than ondine so I learnt that, instead)...perhaps I will work on Ondine next week! Heeey that's not a bad idea...*starts talking to herself*

If you have any fingering questions, just holler! I have printed and personal ones written in.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Sweet! Hey, that was fast! When did u start it? I am not currently working on it, as I am preparing a recording of ballade no 1 this weekend and a couple(5 ) new etudes by chopin are what I have been practicing lately. But i would like to finish ondine some day(i found mephisto valse much easier than ondine so I learnt that, instead)...perhaps I will work on Ondine next week! Heeey that's not a bad idea...*starts talking to herself*

If you have any fingering questions, just holler! I have printed and personal ones written in.

Started it on Wedsnesday.  The book I have for Gaspard is like REALLY nice.  The pages are like made out of Valentina Lisitsa's hair or something, so I said to myself that I wouldn't break the spine until I decided to legit learn some of the Gaspard.  So I was screwing around with it, and I was getting mad that the book wouldn't stay open.  So I ended up breaking the spine...  Now that's when I've cross the event horizon, the point of no return!

Anyways, The89thkey would've finished all of Gaspard and performed it all over the world by now lol.

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Give me your fingerings!!!!!

Just like send me all of it, much appreciated.

I don't have the score on me right now, but I remember 38 freaking sucked.  What's you're fingering for the right hand there?  Actually putting both hands together sucks the most there.

And there's a spot in the beginning where there's this D#F#A#, B# tremolo then changes to D#FA, B for a brief moment and then changes back.  This happens twice.  Do you go from the pinky on the B# to the 4th finger on the B?  Or do you use the pinky for both?  I think logically it would make sense to switch from pinky to 4th, but then doing the tremolo is more difficult.  But if I keep it on the pinky, then I think I take a little too much time switching.

Catch my drift?

[chopin2015]

Let me know if these help. I'd have to see tomorrow which ones I used in that specific bar.

[chopin2015]

you can use these...

[chopin2015]

On those last 2 notes I circled, use 1 cross to 2 so in the next bar u can start with. 1 2 and 5

[chopin2015]

Yeah, those should work, I just checked. Let me know if that helps at all and what you come up with!

[birba]

THIS is pianostreet.com....   

[chopin2015]

Hey, there's a thread I created a while back for Ondine, this is important:

This is by quantum about bars 53-56

The RH is in even 32nds grouped in 4.  The LH contains a triplet 16th followed by two non-tuplet (regular) 16ths.  When you put them hands together: the first group is a 4 against 3 polyrhythm, and the next group is 4 32nds against 2 16ths.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

The right hand starting at measure 47.

How the heck do you do that pattern?

I do the high notes with 5, 42.

There must be a better way!!!

[chopin2015]

Itvsays the other way is 4 then 52

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Itvsays the other way is 4 then 52

Wow that sucks.

What do you do?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Hey, there's a thread I created a while back for Ondine, this is important:

This is by quantum about bars 53-56

The RH is in even 32nds grouped in 4.  The LH contains a triplet 16th followed by two non-tuplet (regular) 16ths.  When you put them hands together: the first group is a 4 against 3 polyrhythm, and the next group is 4 32nds against 2 16ths.

I've hit a brick wall.  53-56 freaking sucks.

[chopin2015]

I've hit a brick wall.  53-56 freaking sucks.

I got you.

Start at the same time on the beat, you could do 4 over 3 or just make sure you start at the same time but your left is group of 3 notes before the pause and is slower than your right hand group of 4. Then you play the left hand during the pause on your right(it's the next beat or group of 4), then play your right A with your 2nd finger, then roll the left hand and play the A again with 1 then an octave above with 5 like a staccato octave run, at the same time as the rolled left, ya know? Here is a pic of the order of things and fingerings. You know how to count groups? Each group of 4 32nd notes is a beat(semiquaver) next group of 4 starts with a pause, you see?. So go 1234 1234 and count on 1, then keep the pulse the same and practice fitting 3 to the same pulse. for each 1 count  123 123. But the 1 always starts at the same time, on the beat here. K?

[chopin2015]

Wow that sucks.

What do you do?

I do 4/52 lol you'll get used to it!

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I do 4/52 lol

You're something else...

[chopin2015]

You're something else...

I have a big stretch between my 1st and 4 and 1st and 5th finger. I can reach a 10th. Do some piano range stretching exercises. Like see how much of a interval you can get between each finger. Also, you don't have to hold that g with your 1 or whatever that part of the song is. just practice doing the jump from the 1 to the 4. You don't have to hold the 4 while you are turning your hand to hit 2 and 5

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I have a big stretch between my 1st and 4 and 1st and 5th finger. I can reach a 10th. Do some piano range stretching exercises. Like see how much of a interval you can get between each finger. Also, you don't have to hold that g with your 1 or whatever that part of the song is. just practice doing the jump from the 1 to the 4. You don't have to hold the 4 while you are turning your hand to hit 2 and 5

I can play a 10th comfortably, reach an 11th, and on a good day with sunny skys, a 12th.

Yeah, it's not that bad.  I still do whatever fingering I do.

After a day or two it gets better.

[chopin2015]

I can play a 10th comfortably, reach an 11th, and on a good day with sunny skys, a 12th.

Yeah, it's not that bad.  I still do whatever fingering I do.

After a day or two it gets better.

Yeah, I mean I honestly do not see an issue to it. My teacher even said that skipping with a 4 is less reliable, as opposed to a 5. But still, it's just a technique. Why did you ask if there was a different way to do this instead of 5, 42? What are you noticing about it?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Yeah, I mean I honestly do not see an issue to it. My teacher even said that skipping with a 4 is less reliable, as opposed to a 5. But still, it's just a technique. Why did you ask if there was a different way to do this instead of 5, 42? What are you noticing about it?

Because at the time I wanted to find an easier way.  But there isn't unfortunately.

[chopin2015]

Because at the time I wanted to find an easier way.  But there isn't unfortunately.

Yeah, I mean, unless you had 6 fingers on each hand...

So try the 4/52 lol it's how the pros do it.

[birba]

That's really not a difficult passage.  (I feel like a voyeur spying on a romantic tryst...)

[rachmaninoff_forever]

That's really not a difficult passage.  (I feel like a voyeur spying on a romantic tryst...)

The 5,42 thing isn't that bad.

I just didn't know how to count 53 to 56

[chopin2015]

The 5,42 thing isn't that bad.

I just didn't know how to count 53 to 56

Really only count the right hand. Each group of four is what the right is evenly divided into. First group starts with a note, the next with a pause and they alternate.  During the first group, the left plays 3 notes during the 4 in the right. Look up 4 over 3 poly and study it. Next group is not polyrhythmic and starts with the left hand during the right hand's pause. Then the groups alternate back to polyrhythmic. You see? I just made a tutorial about it for you. It is uploading and I will post it here when its finished.

[chopin2015]

here you go! Hope this is a little useful. Also forgot to add that the dotted note which is the d in the right hand at the beginning of the 3/4 section, is part of the melody too. LOL My bad!

[rob47]

[chopin2015]

Lmfao

[rachmaninoff_forever]

This makes no freaking sense!!! 

Both hands are 32nd notes but they're not together what the heck?!!!

This makes no freaking sense!!!!

Chopin2015, I need your guidance.

[austinarg]

Those are unlabeled tuplets. As simple as that. Of course, playing them is not THAT simple 

[chopin2015]

You see the melody notes? Those play on the beat. The other notes you just squeeze in there. 7 is more notees than 6, so as the 7 happens over 6...both groups start and end at the same time but after they start, 7 happens more times than 6 because there are more notes in that group. Whatever happens inbetween is depending on some things like...are you listening to both of your hands? Do you know what the parts should sound like together and separate? Divide all the groups (they already are grouped, see? First one is 7 over 6. But each group still gets one 8th note duration, no matter how many notes are in that group). This is greatly depending on how well you can play without looking (i usually watch my left hand and do not need to look at my right hand) so relax and give yourself enough time to get familliar enough with each group and let it fall into your hand. The speed and right sound should come naturally.

I could make a viddy for you if you need. But first check your fingering, each group hands separate.

[lateromantic]

This makes no freaking sense!!! 

Both hands are 32nd notes but they're not together what the heck?!!!

This makes no freaking sense!!!!

Chopin2015, I need your guidance.

I played this piece as a senior in college and used it in both performances and competitions.  (That was many decades ago, so what I say here is based on a long-ago memory.)  But rhythmically, that passage is not as challenging as it looks (although I do remember long hours trying to get my fingers to the right notes!).  If the RH and LH are synchronized at the start of each half-beat, and if in between those points each hand executes an even “sweep” of the notes, it should come out right.  When you’re faced with a 6 against 7, for example, you don’t really have to do complex 42-based calculations in your head as you play it.

[werq34ac]

.-. can i join? I'm learning it too!

THAT PART IS THE MOST AMAZING PART EVAR!! Anyway, I personally just make sure that right notes fall together. It doesn't have to be exactly in time either I don't think since it's a climactic and you want to milk it for all it's rubato's worth. Tastefully.

Btw Chopin2015 you might want to look at your score again for 53-56. You're missing some notes from that melody.

[chopin2015]

.-. can i join? I'm learning it too!

THAT PART IS THE MOST AMAZING PART EVAR!! Anyway, I personally just make sure that right notes fall together. It doesn't have to be exactly in time either I don't think since it's a climactic and you want to milk it for all it's rubato's worth. Tastefully.

Btw Chopin2015 you might want to look at your score again for 53-56. You're missing some notes from that melody.

Not sure what you mean, but that's not my score there.

This one is, and I write in everything, including the note names in places I forget.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

If you played this for an audition, would it be considered a "modern" piece?

[j_menz]

If you played this for an audition, would it be considered a "modern" piece?

Sadly, yes by some people. I wouldn't try and get away with that nonsense at an audition, though. It is, after all, over a century old. Do you consider Edwardian fashions modern in anything else?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Sadly, yes by some people. I wouldn't try and get away with that nonsense at an audition

[j_menz]

I don't mean it's not a good audition piece, just that it shouldn't be considered modern. A hundered and a bit years is, after all, quite a long time.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I don't mean it's not a good audition piece, just that it shouldn't be considered modern. A hundered and a bit years is, after all, quite a long time.

Well then what would it go as?

Romantic?