In the market for a Hamburg D, but getting alot of mixed input from dealers

[noambenhamou]

Hi everyone,
I've posted here before for advice on a Hamburg D but i'm still looking.
I'm still in the process of selling my new 2012 Steinway D which NEVER even made it into my home.
I told the piano store that I would buy a new D and I flew to the factory about 9 months ago and picked the best one out of 5. It was the "best" out of the 5 but it wasn't any good. I felt alot of pressure from the store - Sherman Clay in Portland and from the factory to select one even though I told them numerous times that the pianos were not good. They kept filling my head with junk about how the piano will "mature" with age, about the current room acoustics in the selection room, and how I was pretty much too picky etc etc...

All the pianos at the factory (and even the 2 I went to look at at the store in Manhattan) had the exact same issue. Extreme lack of dynamic range, and very poor treble singing quality, and sustain.

After all the pressure to select a piano, I selected the best one under the assumption that the acoustics in the selection room were bad and once the piano arrived to Sherman Clay in Portland, the piano was still the same. Extremely poor dynamic range, and a very emotionally shallow tone out of the treble keys. Spent days and days with the technician and the piano did not get better. The harder the hammers were, the better the sound was, but the louder the piano became with the inability to play softly.
Right next to my NEW piano, was a 1998 NY D C&A that was absolutely magnificent! I could break the store front glass, and play so quietly softer than a whisper. So it wasn't the room acoustics...

Anyway - what a nightmare that was. And even with me paying full retail value for the piano - 147k I didn't get the good karma and found the "gem" I was looking for.
Sometimes I negotiate on high end items, and sometimes I want to help the local business. But in this case, I just got taken advantage of by the dealer and steinway corporate I feel.

Now the piano is for sale. I'd be lucky to get $90,000 for it. All the propaganda about a steinway being an investment is total B.S. and they should be sued for presenting it as such...


3 months ago I went to test out one of Pro Piano's 2006 Hamburg D's that was located in a small storage space in the LA area. I sat down and hit one note. I hit the middle C and instantly I knew this was a superior instrument.
The dynamic range was excellent, and the tone quality was absolutley beautiful. It's as if I didn't even have to play a nocturne, just a single note would almost put me to tears. And the feedback from the action in relation to the noise being committed by the piano were in perfect harmony.
This piano was brilliant compared to any NY D I have ever played, but I could easily tell that it wasn't a "gem" of the Hamburg D's. It was missing something. Pandora's box was opened and after hearing it, I could all the sudden imagine the PERFECT piano which would about about 2x better than that one. Better bass notes, even better dynamic range, better action. So although that was the best piano I have yet to play, I could now see the possibility of how good a piano can be.

The Steinway Hamburg sound is definitely the sound for me. I don't want to start the debate about the severe brainwashing I have because it's true! I also love to look at the Steinway logo on the fallboard while I play

So the issue now is this...
I'm getting mixed feedback from dealers on the following:

1) to C&A or not to C&A. Some say that a C&A piano is better and handpicked by steinway. Some dealers say that steinway doesn't have good enough techs at the factory to detect a "gem". So buying a sight unseen 2010 C&A piano from germany would not be necessarily a GREAT piano.

2) NY Steinway D's aren't good. All dealers were on consensus with this topic. Some say it's poor quality control, and some say it's just the NY hammer that stinks and if replaced with Renner or Abel hammers, the pianos could be great. Either way, I don't care since I'm never touching a NY Steinway again.

3) Newer is better?
Some dealers say that although the NY quality control is poor, the Hamburg pianos being made are still amazing. Other dealers said that from 1990 and newer, quality control at Hamburg has also been poor and should buy 1990 and older. This same dealer is also suggesting I try an even much older Hamburg D. Like even in the 50's range that has been restored properly. This whole idea scares me, but I keep thinking of pianos too much like cars. Old is NOT good.


So I have a few options:
1) newer C&A
2) older C&A
3) newer non C&A
4) older non C&A

Then I have to consider pricing. I can get a 2010 C&A from germany for 140k. And Pro Piano could want as much as 180k for a 2006 non C&A which is ok - they are not motivated to sell. I think they make way too much money renting them out hahah

The prices are all over the place. I called on a 1950 Hamburg D restored 10 years ago and they quoted 100k. I don't want to be in the same situation as I am right now. This 100% markup business is just too aggressive. I've recently found out that a brand new NY steinway D is $75,000 wholesale!!! Buyer be-ware. It's in the past now.
All I have to do now is find the perfect piano and I appreciate any suggestions.

PS - I won't fly to germany to the Hamburg factory to find another 5 poorly made pianos. That trip to NYC was a horror.
On June 19th I'm flying to San Francisco to play Pro Piano's 4 Hamburg D's. My worry is that he will ask way too much money knowing I can buy a brand new Hamburg D from germany right now for 160k...

[iansinclair]

You and Glenn Gould.  Good luck...

[silverwoodpianos]

Some dealers say that although the NY quality control is poor, the Hamburg pianos being made are still amazing.

I would agree that the Hamburg instrument is the better build and finished product.

PS - I won't fly to germany to the Hamburg factory to find another 5 poorly made pianos. That trip to NYC was a horror.

I would recommend a reconsideration of this part. One could also make the trip a holiday in Germany and France or something like that.

[sirpazhan]

you know, if I were to buy a hamburg, I wouldn't even think twice about flying to their factory and checking their stock.  you're dropping that much money,,, how much damage is a plane ticket and a room going to do to you? it will haunt the back of your mind if you don't.   

I know how chaotic it can be finding a gem.. it too me 5 years to find my model B. after years of looking at rebuilt, c&as, old, school used, etc etc.. i got so feed up and overwhelmed, I just concentrated on the news ones.. I'd say I went through at least 25-30 news before settling on the one I have now.  You just have to be patient.. trying to find that 'one' is not going to come easy.

Its hard to answer the news is better question.. because there are some really good old ones, rivaling the best new ones,, but they're few and far in between. Its up to you if you want to take the time to go through all of them to find one that fits your taste.   

and I've always been weary about used C&A's -- i feel like they've been through a storm of music.. too much wear and tear.. maybe if it was only used for a festival or a couple concerts.. but none of the conservatory ones.

good luck with it.. I know if I ever end up upgrading.. I'll be in the same boat as you. haha

[pianolive]

Looks like you should not be left alone with a sales man, if it is that easy to sell you a piano which you find "wasn't any good".

I have been in Hamburg quite some times with pianists to find a D. Only once we had to ask them to voice a piano once again. They make the greatest pianos but they are all different from each other.

Normally it will take three years to form the sound in a new D, but if a customer does not like it at all from the beginning, he should not buy it!

In Europe you are allowed to change the piano to another new D within a year if you if you find that the sound does fit in the hall or whatever you donīt like. I donīt know if they have the same policy in NY.

S&S NY and Hamburg is one company, so ask them to let you find a piano in Hamburg.

I would really advice you to have someone you trust to help you, a tech, friend or another pianist. Then the two of you should be left alone in the show room while testing the pianos.

Never go to any manufacturer show room at the end of the year, there will always be some "left overs" that nobody want. At Steinway you can easily check for how long it has been in the show room.

If you want an older D, S&S Hamburg made really great pianos in the 70īs.

[noambenhamou]

Thank you for the replies and suggestions.

So I looked into this thing called "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy:

"Anytime during your lifetime you can trade your Steinway-designed piano back to us and your will receive the full price you paid towards the purchase price of any new piano of greater value. (Subject to the reasonably good condition of the piano.)"

As recently discussed I do enjoy the hamburg D sound and feel and would like to upgrade.

The way I see it, the hamburg D is a Steinway of greater value and I should be eligible to return my NY D and receive a full credit and go to hamburg to pick out a new D.

Am I correct in my thinking?
I called the Steinway store in NY hall and the salesman said no because they don't have any hamburg aim stock.

I called the factory in queens and they said they will check on it and call me back.
I'd appreciate any opinions and I will also check back in and let you know what Steinway said.

Thank you

[iansinclair]

Hmm.  Well, I'll be interested in what Steinway says.  However, I wouldn't hold my breath.  Steinway has two factories: New York (the original one) and Hamburg.  They make the same models, pretty much at both factories.  To, so far as I know, the same standards (note that this was not true for a while, some 80 years or so ago).  It may be that the craftsmanship is different in the two factories, although I wouldn't care to say which was better on any given day.

So -- as I say, I'll be interested in what they say.  I'm not sure that the snob appeal of being built in Hamburg vs. New York will play awfully well, though...

[noambenhamou]

Yeah, I hear you.
Steinway may get their feelings hurt on the fact that I don't like the NY D and want a hamburg instead. But they should be wise enough not to take it to heart too much.

The fact is that although I don't like the NY D, it's purely a matter of personal preference.
If I had a mixer, a NY D is more like if you were listening to music in your car, and turned down the treble 50% and turned up the bass 100%. I can't stand that sound. My ears actually reject it and it gives me a headache. I like the treble up all the way and the bass way down - with all types of music.

The sustain of the NY D and lack of dynamic range on the other hand is un-excusable. But perhaps the piano is indeed capable with proper voicing. I have had many piano techs and non can change sustain or make a big improvement on dynamic range.

[pianolive]

So I looked into this thing called "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy
/quote]

This is not what I talk about. If you buy a Steinway here and then when the piano is in your home or hall and you find that the sound is not at all what you expected, you may change it to a piano of the same model without costs within a year. If you buy a D they might send factory techs first to see if they can help you.
I find it strange that they just do not tell you to go to Hamburg and find another D.

[noambenhamou]

Pianoalive,

Where do you see this information that within 1 year if I'm not happy with the piano Steinway will replace it? This could be beneficial for me...
Thank you!

[sirpazhan]

Pianoalive,

Where do you see this information that within 1 year if I'm not happy with the piano Steinway will replace it? This could be beneficial for me...
Thank you!

I've heard this done before.. pretty sure steinway won't replace a one year old piano with a 'brand new' one.. most likely you'll receive someone else's 1 year old piano (or a one year old floor model) going through the same situation.  

I remember something about it being an Authorized Dealer type of thing. not necessarily a corporate guarantee.. never heard any dealer in U.s offer this deal.. you may have to get on the phones for this one.

[pianolive]

Pianoalive,

Where do you see this information that within 1 year if I'm not happy with the piano Steinway will replace it? This could be beneficial for me...
Thank you!

Several authorised Steinway dealers in Europe offer this service, and the customer get a new one.
I only know of one time this happened. My experience is that when customers go for a new Steinway and try pianos in the shop or factory show room, they do find their piano. Sometimes they want some changes done in the factory and then a tech do the final adjustments and voicing at the costumer.
If the customers do not find "their" piano, they will wait and come back later. I never saw a sales man at Steinway go on and push a customer like you describe in your post.

[g_s_223]

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