Smooth Crescendo.

[senanserat]

Hi!

I was wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks to achive a smooth cresc. I have tried using the gravity drop method that suggest the author and while way better than what I started with I need a really smooth cresc. I need the audience to, and myself of course, to feel the pressure, the intensity building up, this is especially important because I consider this the climax of the piece then what follows is a gliss. that releases the tension.

There are 3 repetitions of the the same chord, with the last one going half an octave more, and each should begin soft (but louder than the previous) and gradually grow. Another problem is that the piece demands it to be done at 200 BPM Quarter.

Here is the aforementioned passage, any help would be deeply aprecciated.

[faulty_damper]

Crescendo also means to speed up.  This increases the rate of information that the brain must process so that is perceived as more intense.

Also, if you are having difficulty with a crescendo, you'll need to figure out how much you need to do to make it louder, gradually.  Louder does not mean more difficult on you.  It should be just as easy to play loudly as when you are playing softly.

[dima_76557]

Crescendo also means to speed up.

No, it does not; crescendo pertains to volume only. Personal associations are not everybody else's rules.

[hfmadopter]

Before entering the crescendo, in the phrases before it that is, play at a volume low enough to leave yourself enough room in terms of volume to grow the crescendo . You don't want to max out the piano's capability before you hit that climax. You want room for a very slight almost hesitation and hit the climax. It's dynamic to do that. And play the notes sufficient to let them really sing out. With that speed it's easy to short change them. The last thing you need to do in a dynamic crescendo is to short change your notes, make sure they get full value and that you are evenly touching the key bed on all of them..

Now there is a timing thing happening at the same time. Because to increase volume you ramp up velocity of each note striking the strings. So the drop speed increases, the after effect is that you need a slight seemingly sustain on the notes to get to their full value. So it feels as though you are slowing down the release of the notes. If you just rap it out the sound will be all wrong, it gets wispy or thin sounding instead of intense.

[perfect_pitch]

Seriously... You're learning the Death Waltz???

Which arrangement???

[senanserat]

Crescendo also means to speed up.  This increases the rate of information that the brain must process so that is perceived as more intense.

Also, if you are having difficulty with a crescendo, you'll need to figure out how much you need to do to make it louder, gradually.  Louder does not mean more difficult on you.  It should be just as easy to play loudly as when you are playing softly.

For what I knew the Cres. was a sound only dynamic, but I guess speeding slightly its a natural consecuence considering that I have to drop (not press acording to Mr. Chang) with less resistance each time. Nevertheless I don't want it to sound rushed, while a bit of speed up may work, I want a rich sound that increases in tension.

Before entering the crescendo, in the phrases before it that is, play at a volume low enough to leave yourself enough room in terms of volume to grow the crescendo . You don't want to max out the piano's capability before you hit that climax.

I am aware of that, but the piece is played almost enterily forte with of course its apropiate dynamics, another problem is that because the segment before this ends with a bass scale from D to G (no blacks keys) that requieres a natural cres. then I have to jump to the start of what I posted around Mf and end in F.

The last thing you need to do in a dynamic crescendo is to short change your notes, make sure they get full value and that you are evenly touching the key bed on all of them..

I don't worry about that so far this being my first piece I learned it since the start at 60 BPM (currently at 180/200 BPM Quarter!) Eigths counting each note as One and Two and Three and Four, repeat. So the timing is not a issue, expression in the other hand...

Now there is a timing thing happening at the same time. Because to increase volume you ramp up velocity of each note striking the strings. So the drop speed increases, the after effect is that you need a slight seemingly sustain on the notes to get to their full value. So it feels as though you are slowing down the release of the notes. If you just rap it out the sound will be all wrong, it gets wispy or thin sounding instead of intense.

I though using the sustain pedal (which I barely learning to properly use) could help me there, but because of how fast this passage is so far I have only dirtied the sound, not even half pedal helps much because the problem is that I need a steady curve from mp to mf,  then f to ff and the end is ff to fff -> gliss.

Such control simply eludes me at the moment, I go from mp to mf without much in between to blend it.

Sorry if I express in a confusing matter, english is not my natal language and this matter frustrates me.

Seriously... You're learning the Death Waltz???

Which arrangement???

Marasy's naturally, is the best and most difficult out there. (IMO)

[hfmadopter]

I though using the sustain pedal (which I barely learning to properly use) could help me there, but because of how fast this passage is so far I have only dirtied the sound, not even half pedal helps much because the problem is that I need a steady curve from mp to mf,  then f to ff and the end is ff to fff -> gliss.

/quote]

I can see how that would muddy it up. If to use any pedal you must learn to be a master of disguise ! Very quick very light taps of the pedal might help you out of a bind. However, it can become a crutch. Also the pedal must be mechanically well regulated on your piano. I'm a fan of cheating with pedal but so it it barely is heard as pedal. I guess if my technique were better I wouldn't think lime that  ! At any rate, the sustain I was mentioning didn't mean with pedal.

[senanserat]

I though using the sustain pedal (which I barely learning to properly use) could help me there, but because of how fast this passage is so far I have only dirtied the sound, not even half pedal helps much because the problem is that I need a steady curve from mp to mf,  then f to ff and the end is ff to fff -> gliss.

/quote]

I can see how that would muddy it up. If to use any pedal you must learn to be a master of disguise ! Very quick very light taps of the pedal might help you out of a bind. However, it can become a crutch. Also the pedal must be mechanically well regulated on your piano. I'm a fan of cheating with pedal but so it it barely is heard as pedal. I guess if my technique were better I wouldn't think lime that  ! At any rate, the sustain I was mentioning didn't mean with pedal.

I understand, while I didn't have a teacher I avoided practicing mostly because I didn't want to pick bad habits. I though the pedal was just something you pressed and magic sounds came out of it, but it is very very danm tricky

The piece I am playing is this one in question, please note how in 1:50 he starts a cresc. that just makes you lean forward in expectation. That is what I wish, that is technique, something, something one can acquire with the right methods And tat is with crappy sound quality!

     (Was going to use the BBCode but it said invalid link soo)

[j_menz]

You keep a crescendo smooth, perhaps paradoxically, by maintaining the rhythmic accent variations in volume within it. That way the ear is guided properly where you are going. Lose them, and you lose the reference points to the build up.

[faulty_damper]

No, it does not; crescendo pertains to volume only. Personal associations are not everybody else's rules.

Yes, it can.   It depends on the context, however. Generally, getting louder also means speeding up, much like how a person who shouts is talking faster than if he were just speaking normally.  Otherwise, he'd just be speaking loudly and not shouting.  <--- this is a huge difference even if both dynamic volume is identical.

[j_menz]

Generally, getting louder also means speeding up,

Nope, unless an accelerando or some such is also mentioned. There may be exceptions, but the two phenomena are normally separate. Generally, getting louder means just getting louder, not changing the pulse at all. And getting softer does not imply slowing down.

[senanserat]

As we can see this is quite the complex topic, yet there are no many replies as to what exactly would the technique be. >.<

[j_menz]

As we can see this is quite the complex topic, yet there are no many replies as to what exactly would the technique be. >.<

Yes and no. There are lots of different crescendos, and there is no specific "technique" that covers all or even most of them. The only general advice is the same as for most dynamics - know what you want it to sound like and then play that, using your ears to check that you are doing so.

[hfmadopter]

You keep a crescendo smooth, perhaps paradoxically, by maintaining the rhythmic accent variations in volume within it. That way the ear is guided properly where you are going. Lose them, and you lose the reference points to the build up.

I fully agree, coming to that end is another matter ! The only way to get louder on the piano is to increase hammer velocity. In so doing many folks don't give full value to the notes, that must kept up ( full value). So doing can give one the sense of holding the notes slightly. I think most would find that in the end that hold equates to full value after increasing strike velocity..

The poster mentions wanting a kind of forward anticipation in the crescendo. My take on that would be to administer, if anything, a slight gain  or accentuation of the pulse as the crescendo builds. What's your thought ? I have not listened to the recording he posted yet but will get to that.

[j_menz]

The poster mentions wanting a kind of forward anticipation in the crescendo. My take on that would be to administer, if anything, a slight gain  or accentuation of the pulse as the crescendo builds. What's your thought ? I have not listened to the recording he posted yet but will get to that.

In the recording, the pianist maintains strict tempo.

I think that anticipation is achieved not through speeding up, but rather (very) slightly delaying hitting the main beats (while maintaining tempo overall).

[iansinclair]

Just to add to the confusion ( ) I might mention that in some orchestral and choral works the build to a climax consists of both a crescendo (more volume) and an actual slowing down of the musical pulse (sometimes a simple tempo change; sometimes an actual doubling of the note values of the main theme)!  One can hear this in such diverse places as Copland's Appalachian Spring, the Brahms German Requiem, and Beethoven Symphony #9.  Mahler Resurrection Symphony also...

So as has been said -- there are no general rules!

[hfmadopter]

Just to add to the confusion ( ) I might mention that in some orchestral and choral works the build to a climax consists of both a crescendo (more volume) and an actual slowing down of the musical pulse (sometimes a simple tempo change; sometimes an actual doubling of the note values of the main theme)!  One can hear this in such diverse places as Copland's Appalachian Spring, the Brahms German Requiem, and Beethoven Symphony #9.  Mahler Resurrection Symphony also...

So as has been said -- there are no general rules!

Yes, I agree and it is what I do as well. A lot of people tend to rush, it's an incorrect approach to a dynamic climax IMO.

[hfmadopter]

In the recording, the pianist maintains strict tempo.

I think that anticipation is achieved not through speeding up, but rather (very) slightly delaying hitting the main beats (while maintaining tempo overall).

That would be a pretty standard approach that many top pianists have used  ( in fact as pointed out, even orchestral groups). There are many ways to accentuate something, one is that slight sense of holding back.

[senanserat]

That would be a pretty standard approach that many top pianists have used  ( in fact as pointed out, even orchestral groups). There are many ways to accentuate something, one is that slight sense of holding back.

Excuse my ignorance, but are you sayong that in order to achive that type of cresc. "slowing" down?. Let see the score, measure 101's end and start of the 102, woulnd't that quick note (rest) note be accelerated?

As someone mentioned there are different types of cresc. what I want to achive is that particular type for this piece.

[hfmadopter]

Excuse my ignorance, but are you sayong that in order to achive that type of cresc. "slowing" down?. Let see the score, measure 101's end and start of the 102, woulnd't that quick note (rest) note be accelerated?

As someone mentioned there are different types of cresc. what I want to achive is that particular type for this piece.

Listen to the bass pulse in that recording you posted, I think it's where you are speaking of anyway. Baam-baam- baam,- boom, baam- baam- baam,- boom. Can you feel that slightest hesitation between there ? Not the notes, feel the pulse. You have to feel it to do it, it's not a by the numbers thing. What isn't heard is as important as what is.

I'm sorry, I'm not the greatest at explaining this !

[senanserat]

Listen to the bass pulse in that recording you posted, I think it's where you are speaking of anyway. Baam-baam- baam,- boom, baam- baam- baam,- boom. Can you feel that slightest hesitation between there ? Not the notes, feel the pulse. You have to feel it to do it, it's not a by the numbers thing. What isn't heard is as important as what is.

I'm sorry, I'm not the greatest at explaining this !

But the bass is just an octave played with a tribal-ish rythm, the real crescendo comes from the melody, am I right? What I need is that steady acumulation of tension so I can have people on the edge of their seats by the time the gliss. comes to release the tension.

Don't worry I am not the most elocuent myself when it comes to this.

[faulty_damper]

Now that I've listened to the music, I'd agree with others that in this case, getting louder just means getting louder without an acceleration at that part of the music.  However, I think the overall piece should speed up a bit from beginning to end.  This will help intensify the music.

[senanserat]

Now that I've listened to the music, I'd agree with others that in this case, getting louder just means getting louder without an acceleration at that part of the music.  However, I think the overall piece should speed up
 a bit from beginning to end.  This will help intensify the music.

Okay so bottom line, in this case let gravity drop be harder while accelerating in (I guess) the end of measure 101 and 102? Also my Lehrer said that I should not exactly accelerate but give emphasis to the priotities.

1.Melody
2.Lowest Bass
3.Middle

So in parts where the cords go literally zig-zag in this manner: i.e  C to B then C# to A# ,I should play and again as i.e, loud, softer, louder, soft

[dima_76557]

Okay so bottom line, in this case let gravity drop be harder while accelerating in (I guess) the end of measure 101 and 102?

Nobody can give you PHYSICAL instructions on how to make a crescendo. It is YOU who should have a clear sound image in your mind of what you want, and then practice to make your hands imitate the sound that is already in your head. Where is the highest point in the dynamic level? You should gradually work towards that point in order not to get too loud too soon. That is the whole secret of a good crescendo and it may take some experimenting. "Gravity-drop" thinking in itself is not going to help you here. The tone gets louder by increased key acceleration. Try anything that gives you good enough control over the hammers to make that sound grow. Experiment.

[faulty_damper]

I never use gravity drop because it's inefficient.  I control the weight of my arm or wrist coming down to play louder.  I do not actually use more strength, just speed, so that it's just as easy to play loud as it is to play soft.  The technique uses far less energy and movement.

[senanserat]

I never use gravity drop because it's inefficient.  I control the weight of my arm or wrist coming down to play louder.  I do not actually use more strength, just speed, so that it's just as easy to play loud as it is to play soft.  The technique uses far less energy and movement.

Isn't that the same? I don't lift my arm skyward, I just let it "drop" and arrest it depending on how loud I need it, anyway I am just a newb at this point in the space-time but I think it has helped me.

[hfmadopter]

But the bass is just an octave played with a tribal-ish rythm, the real crescendo comes from the melody, am I right? What I need is that steady acumulation of tension so I can have people on the edge of their seats by the time the gliss. comes to release the tension.

Don't worry I am not the most elocuent myself when it comes to this.

I would submit that the anticipation is within that tribal beat and how it is executed. Sure, bring up the volume overall in both hands. The whole thing makes for the overall package. As I may have already said, it's not something you do by the numbers !