Is it too late for me?

[mosis]

I am 16 years old and doing my Grade 10 RCM this year.

Is it too late for me to get anywhere with piano performance?

I've been playing since I was very young, but I hated it up until a few years ago, and my love for piano hasn't seriously started until about a year ago. I have a great teacher (although I believe he isn't hard enough on me) and I know about great practice methods (Chang's book and Bernhard's methods are great resources), and I'm working on technique and repertoire acquisition. I originally wanted to minor in music at Waterloo, but now I don't know how serious I want to be about piano. Everyone says there's no money in it unless you're great. Is it too late for me to get anywhere where I can make a decent living and enjoy my life?

[janice]

Is it too late for me to get anywhere where I can make a decent living and enjoy my life?

Some of the others will have to answer the first part of your question (about making a decent living), but I will answer the second part (about enjoying life).  The answer is "most certainly"!  You can always make the choice to enjoy life and the great part is, you could be dirt poor and still enjoy it!  Perhaps this isn't the answer that you are looking for, so I suggest that you rephrase your question (even though I know what you mean )

[jr11]

If you're serious about this, ask yourself some tough questions. Are you a better pianist than all your peers? Do you consistently win at festivals, and get first class honours in all your exams? Are you willing to give up a good portion of your life (social, academic, maybe career), and could you deal with the disappointment of not succeeding? Do you want to live out of a suitcase for extended periods, away from loved ones?

You are young enough to go for it, but you have a lot of ruthless competition, and it's not all glamour at the top either. Go for it if you really think you have what it takes, but for goodness sakes, have a back-up plan.

Bitter reality.

[mosis]

I can't answer many of those questions because I'm just getting serious about it now. I am going to do my damndest to win all the competitions I'll be doing this year, and any future ones.

What do you mean by "living out of a suitcase"?

[Brian Healey]

Living out of a suitcase = living on the road.

Being a professional musician means being a vagrant in many ways, since you'll always be traveling to give performances. If you're really good, it means traveling all over the world, but if you're not so great, then you might just be traveling down the road. Either way, nobody is coming to your house to hear you play.

Also, get used to the idea of being poor. Being a musician will mean you will be competing with thousands of others in an already underpaid profession. Sounds great doesn't it? I'm not trying to be discouraging, but you have to understand the reality of it. All that matters is that you have the desire.

The biggest tip I could give you is to not limit yourself. If you decide that you can only be a classical concert pianist and nothing else, then you've got a very narrow margin for success. If you enjoy other music, learn to play it. Personally, I started as a classical pianist, but I've also studied jazz piano, and I've played in bands of all genres, from rock to reggae. I find you'll be a much more complete and in-demand musican when you can adapt to any playing situation (and you'll get more jobs). Myself, I would hardly say that I'm successful (financially anyway), but I love just playing music no matter what it is, and I get to do it every day, which is enough for me. You just have to know what will make you happy.

[Sketchee]

There are other ways to make a living in piano performance without being the very very top. You'll still have to work hard and be very very good, but you could teach master classes locally and travel could be limited to certain times of the year.  The thing is you have to be determined to both make your life suit the piano and make your life fit the piano world.  You can make a living in piano although it's not the most lucritive field. If you're looking for fame or money, it would probably be a mistake.  However, if you want to make a living doing something you enjoy and are determined to make it work it's possible.  You might not have everything you want at all times, but that's something in every job face and it's part of life.  Don't let the possibility of not "making it" scare you; you might have to redefine what you consider successful several times throughout your life.

Keep your options open and be willing to make options.  If you had a degree in piano, research all the different things you could do with that.  It might be worth also minoring in business (or doing the reverse and majoring in business and minoring in piano).  You'll want to know how you can sell yourself as a piano. You may end up recording your own cd and selling it online and scheduling your own concerts. You might end up with good management and people to promote you.  You'll still want to know the business side.  That's something that opens doors for people in most of the art fields, learning about business and marketing.

[Spatula]

You're 16 and doing grade 10 RCM? Good for you.  It took me close to 3 years to prepare for my grade 8 man, because I was so unmotivated.  Now I'm just barely scratching the surface of grade 10 RCM and I'm coming out of the teenage zone into the young adult zone (I have been like this for 2 years already).

Personally, right now I'm working on my accounting degree THEN I'll think about going to do a degree in music.  The whole point of my acct creditation is so that I'll have something to fall back on, and right now I'm doing some acct work so I have experience on my resume. 

I think what Bernhard said about "it's never too late for piano" is the whole learning part and being a student and learning stuff and that I agree with 100%.

But I'd hate to mention it but its a somewhat giant leap into the realm of professional pianist if that's what you're thinking, but not impossible, and even I think Bernhard would agree.  Plus why have I never heard a recording from Bernhard or even seen his face in a performance?  He knows probably already his calling, even though he’s probably a kick @$$ pianist, his calling is a teacher, not so much a superstar Horowitz kid or anything of that effect. 

[Spatula]

If you're serious about this, ask yourself some tough questions. Are you a better pianist than all your peers? Do you consistently win at festivals, and get first class honours in all your exams? Are you willing to give up a good portion of your life (social, academic, maybe career), and could you deal with the disappointment of not succeeding? Do you want to live out of a suitcase for extended periods, away from loved ones?

You are young enough to go for it, but you have a lot of ruthless competition, and it's not all glamour at the top either. Go for it if you really think you have what it takes, but for goodness sakes, have a back-up plan.

Bitter reality.

By the way...dude man! I'm still kinda feeling the buzz of you doing some stuff with an orchestra..still really gives me the squiggies ( a good thing)..because well in a way I look up to you assuming you're not BSing about what you did (I think you really did what you said  )

Do you have to be some superstar university  music degree swagging hot shot pianist to play with an orchestra or any orchestra?  I'm guessing you'd probably need some good experience first because its not just the pianist's reputation their putting on the line but as well of that of the symphonies...so I guess they need some sort of positive "credit check" or such so they can trust the pianist when doing some concerto etc. 

Even if I do learn some concerto, at best it'll be performed as a 4 hand variation sans orchestra of course.  But again... I'm still in the amateur stage, and going to stay there for a while. 

[faulty_damper]

The first day of class, the sight-reading teacher says to us "most of you will become teachers...".

Very disheartening.  But I wasn't a piano performance or music major, just a political science major.   But I do want to perform and then teach.  I am so much more interested in music than anything else and that is why I am going to audition to get into the music program.   So is it too late for me?  I started playing the piano less than 4 years ago.  I'm not great but with effective practice, I can be.  There is hope because I'm alive, though I don't believe in hope.  But if you believe in hope, then there might be hope for you.

There are other factors that are involved if you want to be a concert pianist.  Just search for those threads about becoming a concert pianist.  A lot more is involved than just being talented.  Sometimes, talent is almost irrelevent.  (In other words in paretheses - you need to be good-looking and be able to present yourself on stage well.)  That's not a joke.  Being attractive can take you places.  Just look at some of these usicians that are more attractive than they are talented.   But they are so good to look at - who cares if they can't hit one right note?

[Spatula]

The first day of class, the sight-reading teacher says to us "most of you will become teachers...".

 There is hope because I'm alive, though I don't believe in hope.  But if you believe in hope, then there might be hope for you.

Wow I feel inspired

There are other factors that are involved if you want to be a concert pianist.  Just search for those threads about becoming a concert pianist.  A lot more is involved than just being talented.  Sometimes, talent is almost irrelevent.  (In other words in paretheses - you need to be good-looking and be able to present yourself on stage well.)  That's not a joke.  Being attractive can take you places.  Just look at some of these usicians that are more attractive than they are talented.   But they are so good to look at - who cares if they can't hit one right note?

I'm good looking! A good looking kitchen utensil.  I don't think Lang Lang looks pretty..again I don't look out for guys now right?  I'm a straight spatula. 

[Brian Healey]

The first day of class, the sight-reading teacher says to us "most of you will become teachers...

That's just reality, and doesn't mean not performing. The fact is that these days most professional performing musicians of any instrument teach as well. In some cases, this is the main source of income that allows the musician to continue to play professionally. Don't be afraid of teaching, as it's the rare performer that can get by without doing it.

[jr11]

By the way...dude man! I'm still kinda feeling the buzz of you doing some stuff with an orchestra..still really gives me the squiggies ( a good thing)..because well in a way I look up to you assuming you're not BSing about what you did (I think you really did what you said  )

Spatula, I think you may have misunderstood me, or have me confused with someone else. I have been in the music biz a long time in one form or another, but have never played with an orchestra. However, I'd love to give it a shot!

JR

[mound]

The first day of class, the sight-reading teacher says to us "most of you will become teachers...".

Very disheartening. 

If you look at it the other way, that could be a very positive statement.  Which lifestyle would you rather have:

1. living in a suitcase always on the road.
2. probably dirt poor most of the time.
3. rarely around loved ones
4. a faint chance of "success" in the material/fame sense
5. great piano chops
7. frequent chances to perform in front of an audience (hopefully an appreciative one)

This is potentially a very lonely and ego-serving lifestyle, but you do get to do what you love doing.


OR

1. Living at home nurturing relationships with loved ones and building a family.
2. a stable financial base (not rich, but stable)
3. ability to plan for a retirement.
4. pretty darn good piano chops
5. ability to perform in front of an appreciative audience (recitals, school performances)
6. The constant joy of knowing you are helping share your love of music with others
7. The joy of seeing the "light bulb" go off in a kids eye when they play something for the first time and "get it"
8. Potentially thousands of people over your lifetime who will always remember you for the impact you had on their lives as their teacher.
9. The ability to spend your time day in and day out doing what you love.

This is a ego-less lifestyle in which you still get to derive great joy from focusing on what you love.

Piano can be a very narcicistic activity. Countless hours by yourself honing your chops. You can choose to continue the lonely lifestyle in search of the ellusive fame and fortune so very few are lucky enough to stumble into after a lifetime of grueling work, or you can plan to come out of your shell and share your world with others in a positive way.

It's really up to you. I've tried to be a rock-star in the past. sleeping on the floor of a van driving endless miles late at night to play one random club after another. dirty. poor. missing friends and family.. sure it has its rewards at times, but those rewards are generally only self-serving. In the end, is that really worth it?

-Paul

[Spatula]

By the way...dude man! I'm still kinda feeling the buzz of you doing some stuff with an orchestra..still really gives me the squiggies ( a good thing)..because well in a way I look up to you assuming you're not BSing about what you did (I think you really did what you said  )

Spatula, I think you may have misunderstood me, or have me confused with someone else. I have been in the music biz a long time in one form or another, but have never played with an orchestra. However, I'd love to give it a shot!

JR

So you did your Rach 2 with another piano?

[Spatula]

5. great piano chops


OR


Countless hours by yourself honing your chops.

Please provide the definiton of "chops". 

In another words in laymans terms, what are chops?

[mound]

haha.. I guess "chops" are more of a guitar/rock-star lingo..  Sorry

good "chops" = good technique..

[Spatula]

A-OK

[westman]

Why don't you consider making a career of the piano itself, and not just performing? By getting trained as a piano teacher and/or tuner-technician, you can make a decent living and still perform as you wish while not having to spend your life on the road.

If you like to tinker with mechanical stuff being a piano tuner-tech can be lots of fun. It pays pretty good, and you have the added bonus of never having to pay someone else to work on your piano 

[Ed Thomas]

Anyone with a good work ethic can always find a J-O-B.  I feel strongly that you should study that about which you are passionate.  If you are mediocre or worse... so what?  The worst thing that can happen is that you will have to find a J-O-B in order to eat, while you continue to enjoy what you love.  I have yet to meet a musician who in their old age sorrowfully mourned:  "I wish I'd studied Accounting.  I wanted to, but my Dad wouldn't pay for that.  He insisted that I play piano.  I HATE piano."

One is a real musician, good or poor, for the love of music.

MY brutally honest (and exceptionally gifted) teacher in Hawaii told me rather carefully that I would never amount to much.  I think he was startled to hear me acknowledge that I already knew that.  So what?  I should NOT focus on something I deeply loved (and still do) just because I couldn't expect to make a living at it???  My whole life has been profoundly richer because I insisted on going to college for music despite being too old (26 at the time) for no reason other than I wanted to REALLY learn how to play.

If you go to college for what you love... then it will be a joy.  If you go because you think you are supposed to, and immerse in things that don't interest you, it will be drudgery and a chore.   Besides, there is always the very real chance that you can make a decent living in the music field.

For the life of me, I can't figure out where in the world all those English majors come from.  Didn't they have enough of that crap in High School?

[Brian Healey]

For the life of me, I can't figure out where in the world all those English majors come from.  Didn't they have enough of that crap in High School

Man, I loved English in college! Literature anyway. I love reading and writing. Although I did hate having to do research papers and stuff like that.

[Repo_Man]

Anyone with a good work ethic can always find a J-O-B.  I feel strongly that you should study that about which you are passionate.  If you are mediocre or worse... so what?  The worst thing that can happen is that you will have to find a J-O-B in order to eat, while you continue to enjoy what you love.  I have yet to meet a musician who in their old age sorrowfully mourned:  "I wish I'd studied Accounting.  I wanted to, but my Dad wouldn't pay for that.  He insisted that I play piano.  I HATE piano."

One is a real musician, good or poor, for the love of music.

MY brutally honest (and exceptionally gifted) teacher in Hawaii told me rather carefully that I would never amount to much.  I think he was startled to hear me acknowledge that I already knew that.  So what?  I should NOT focus on something I deeply loved (and still do) just because I couldn't expect to make a living at it???  My whole life has been profoundly richer because I insisted on going to college for music despite being too old (26 at the time) for no reason other than I wanted to REALLY learn how to play.

If you go to college for what you love... then it will be a joy.  If you go because you think you are supposed to, and immerse in things that don't interest you, it will be drudgery and a chore.   Besides, there is always the very real chance that you can make a decent living in the music field.

For the life of me, I can't figure out where in the world all those English majors come from.  Didn't they have enough of that crap in High School?

Damn, you da man!

I've been working a J-O-B for the past 2 years... Suddenly a week ago I get two people asking me for lessons in the same day (guitar that is, I've mutated from the world of rock guitar). After lurking here for some time reading up/applying what people like Bernhard and CC have to say in regards to learning, I'm confident I could do a good job of teaching beginners the ropes.

It's starting to looks like I could wean myself off the J-O-B and into something I enjoy.

I think I've got a bit in common with Paul... In that I used to be a kid who dreamed of being a big rock star and having the world adore me. Then I began to see how juvenile that perspective is. Now my greatest joy is to play music for people I know. If I could inspire and teach others around me, I'd be the happiest man alive.

I know a lot of the useless goons who teach in the local guitar shops get paid pretty well. When I was young my parents paid something like $50 can/half hour lesson! (in retrospect, most of the culls I had teaching me deserved min. wage).

There are some restaurants that will pay you to play piano. One offered me $50/night, but I was pretty new to piano and didn't have nearly enough repertoire. Which leads to my question...

What would be fair pay for a lounge pianist who does a good job? I tend to figure that 4-5 hours of repertoire would be worth more than $50.

[Spatula]

I was once in a restaurant with a pianist.  He did the water down versions of hollywood themes, romantic stuff, elvis, umm...some blues and jazz, but note that these pieces were pretty easy, all you needed was a good tone and some basic improv skills.  Very few classics...maybe fur elise etc.  This guy wasn't doing virtuositic stuff, but anyways I walked by and said "Good Job". 
He smiled.  After that, I came up and said that I liked his playing.  We got into a conversation and after that he asked if I played...I grinned a big fat curve!

    

Yeah kinda like that one.


So I played the only thing that I knew off by memory then when I was like 16 years old?  Plus it was marginally okay for the classical uninitiated as well as for a "dining room" experience.  I played the Boat Song of Mendelssohns Songs w/o Words.  It was okay, I managed to play decently with no black outs or anything, but too soft.  Maybe that's how background music is to be played... I dunno.

Anyways I got up after that and got some applause and smiles, and the pianist liked it.  He said next time I should have more songs ready because my playing was "very nice".

[Brian Healey]

I actually just got home from playing a wedding reception, and yes, that's how background music is played. If it's too loud, then people might find it intrusive to their dinner, or cocktails, or whatever. The pianist you spoke of also probably was much more skilled than it seemed. You usually have to "tone it down" at a gig like that, because if you get too flashy, it's also considered intrusive. Basically you do exactly what you said: play watered down versions of jazz and popular music for people to drink and eat to.

It's hardly the kind of work that is musically satisfying (to me anyway), but it helps to pay the bills!

[Spatula]

Why not a hungarian rhapsody or 2? 

Some more "awesome" dinner music:

Alkan, some Sorabji and throw in the OC, some Chopin Etudes played at Presto and FFF. some tontentanz...ummm...Some hanon exercises....

[lostinidlewonder]

First of all I think that doing music for money doesn't make sense. So too is chasing ventures for money. I think that with music it is not a rich job. You can make it be though. I don't think that there is any rules as to how you make your musical career. There are three ways to make it. Win competitions, thats hard and not a definate path, Write something which is totally amazing, or self promotion. I know a great deal of little known musicians who self promote themselves and make a decent living. I also know a musician who sees 10 students a day, with 60$AUS fees an hour. That's good money I reckon.

If you want to live with wealth don't be a musician. It's plain and simple as that. IF you come across the money, thats a fantastic bonus. You can pull off 5K in pocket from one concert alone. I personally do a lot of teaching to pay the bills. At the beginning of the year I do my concert performances through all the local cities and rural areas. The living is right at your doorstep. There is no need to go international places and leave home, unless you feel like it. You can always make your living right where you are. Most of the times. In Australia this is the case at least.

If you want the international stage then you have to really choose to either make your own name through something you write which is terribly hard. Win Comeptitions which is again very hard. Or really just do it the only sure way, make a name for yourself through your own promotion. Do your own concerts, hire your own halls, invite the newspapers, speak on the radio, invite rotary clubs to cheap tickets whatever. You have to start somewhere, once you start to get known you can really use that to push you to anywhere you want.

[mosis]

First of all I think that doing music for money doesn't make sense. So too is chasing ventures for money. I think that with music it is not a rich job. You can make it be though. I don't think that there is any rules as to how you make your musical career. There are three ways to make it. Win competitions, thats hard and not a definate path, Write something which is totally amazing, or self promotion. I know a great deal of little known musicians who self promote themselves and make a decent living. I also know a musician who sees 10 students a day, with 60$AUS fees an hour. That's good money I reckon.

If you want to live with wealth don't be a musician. It's plain and simple as that. IF you come across the money, thats a fantastic bonus. You can pull off 5K in pocket from one concert alone. I personally do a lot of teaching to pay the bills. At the beginning of the year I do my concert performances through all the local cities and rural areas. The living is right at your doorstep. There is no need to go international places and leave home, unless you feel like it. You can always make your living right where you are. Most of the times. In Australia this is the case at least.

If you want the international stage then you have to really choose to either make your own name through something you write which is terribly hard. Win Comeptitions which is again very hard. Or really just do it the only sure way, make a name for yourself through your own promotion. Do your own concerts, hire your own halls, invite the newspapers, speak on the radio, invite rotary clubs to cheap tickets whatever. You have to start somewhere, once you start to get known you can really use that to push you to anywhere you want.

I've been thinking about teacher salaries and it never really has occured to me how much they can make. 60 dollars an hour for 10 students per day, 5 days a week is $169000 a year. That is an incredible salary.

[Brian Healey]

I've been thinking about teacher salaries and it never really has occured to me how much they can make. 60 dollars an hour for 10 students per day, 5 days a week is $169000 a year. That is an incredible salary.

That's also 50 students. All I can say is good luck trying to coordinate schedules with 50 students per week, as well as keeping track of their repertoire and progress and things like that. Most of the students will be in school, which means the bulk of your students won't be available until the afternoon, meaning you'll be working till 11 o'clock at night with that kind of schedule. Not to mention all the prep time you'll need outside of lessons to prepare for each lesson for 50 different students.

I agree with you, there is good money in teaching, but I wouldn't expect to be able to juggle 50 students per week. I'm not saying you shouldn't go for it, but pulling in $100+ per year from teaching isn't something I'd bank on (no pun intended).

[mosis]

I was speaking completely hypothetically. I don't plan on that at all. :p

[Brian Healey]

yeah, I know you were.

I just like to open my big mouth

[Sketchee]

Hehe. Instead of just having more students, be the best teacher around and charge few students more.