Do Bosendorfers hold up well over time?

[thalberg]

I know someone who is considering a Bosendorfer purchase.  My first response was encouragement, as I think Bosendorfers are excellent.

Then someone told me that Bosendorfers age poorly and are tempermental regarding weather changes, and that over time they just sound worse and worse, and that they're not worth the money.

I just could not believe this!!  If Bosendorfers sounded worse and worse over time, I'd imagine the company would have fixed that problem by now.  Would someone please contradict this for me?  I just don't want to believe it.  But if it's true, I guess i should know that, too.  Thoughts?

[hfmadopter]

It would hold up as well as its maintained. With poor maintenance it will go out of whack just the same as any other decently made piano would. All acoustic pianos require routine maintenance if you want them to perform at top level for decades. The downfall with some lousy pianos is maintaining them well isn't enough, they turn to crap anyway.

Climate changes are tough on any piano, if one owns a really expensive level piano it's all the more reason to keep it in a climate controlled environment. If one were to spend 150-200K on a nice piano and then sticks it in some back pantry room with no climate control, they deserve what they get back from treating it that way !

There is no magic in the build of an expensive piano, as well crafted as they are, they still are made of wood, metal, felt etc... They don't come with armor plating. Humidity still settles into them, dry dry conditions still shrinks them. They still are susceptible to cracking etc. They are well made non the less, with top components, woods and finishes. That's why they sound so great !

[pianolive]

Bösendorfer are wonderful pianos. My experience with the concert pianos is that they often need voicing.

[perfect_pitch]

I've also been told by a piano tuner that I trust, that generally they need to have the piano re-strung every 10 years.

[pytheamateur]

I've also been told by a piano tuner that I trust, that generally they need to have the piano re-strung every 10 years.

I'm also told that every new string needs 1 year to settle to hold the tuning.  So if  what you say is true, you will need to buy two Bosendorfers in order to avoid the unpleasant experience of an out of tune Bosendorfer one tenth of the time.

Think of it that way, then you will need to spend at least twice the money compared with getting a Steinway?  Is that really worth it? No wonder Bosendorfer needs to get Lisitsa to endorse their pianos.

[lhorwinkle]

And ... "I've been told that I'm the King of England."
Don't believe everything you've been told.

Piano strings DO NOT need to be replaced every 10 years.  They need to be replaced when they've rusted (from living in an uncontrolled environment), or when the piano has been left untuned for a long time... and when the tuner bring it up to pitch some strings might break. In other words, neglect can cause shortened string life.

Other than that ... piano strings will last for many decades.

Once again, don't believe everything you hear.

[hfmadopter]

I've also been told by a piano tuner that I trust, that generally they need to have the piano re-strung every 10 years.

I really can't fathom how this could possibly be the case beyond a certain tuners wishful thinking.. Not even that it's a specific brand piano but even any brand piano, not as an overall case anyway.. There may be specific pianos that got tortured and required new strings, that's possible.

That's like saying all Mercedes need new tires once a year. It's just ridiculous, unless you are a Michelin dealer or you are one who drives the Mercedes 60-80 thousand miles per year or runs over curbs a lot..

[perfect_pitch]

And ... "I've been told that I'm the King of England."
Don't believe everything you've been told.

I didn't say piano strings needed to be replaced every 10 years... I said BOSENDORFER strings needed to be replaced every 10 years.

And considering this is coming from one of the best Piano Tuners in AUSTRALIA, I'd like to think that advice is not just the ramblings of some random guy on the internet, and that it has a lot of credibility.

[hfmadopter]

I didn't say piano strings needed to be replaced every 10 years... I said BOSENDORFER strings needed to be replaced every 10 years.

Did he explain his logic in all this ?

[g_s_223]

...someone who is considering a Bosendorfer purchase.  ... Thoughts?

Well, they should go to all the showrooms and try all the pianos. Several times.

Pianos are not fungible, every single one is different, often radically. Anyone buying a piano sight-unseen is most likely going to get mugged.

[iansinclair]

New strings every ten years?  Hmm... well, my Steinway A did get restrung (not so much needing new strings, but needed new tuning pins, so why not?) after a century.  In a very poorly controlled environment.  Well, 108 years, to be exact.  My M still has the original strings (except one which broke); it's only 89 years old though.  The 1904 upright still has the original strings.

Maybe that's just Steinways, though...

[perfect_pitch]

Did he explain his logic in all this ?

Yes he did... however it was a year and a half ago, and I didn't completely care as I don't OWN a Bosendorfer - but considering he tunes and services pianos in institutions and concert halls all over Australia, I trust him.

The 1904 upright still has the original strings.

Maybe that's just Steinways, though...

Yeah... I did specify that it was just the Bosendorfers that usually need this sort of treatment.

[pytheamateur]

Yes he did... however it was a year and a half ago, and I didn't completely care as I don't OWN a Bosendorfer - but considering he tunes and services pianos in institutions and concert halls all over Australia, I trust him.

Yeah... I did specify that it was just the Bosendorfers that usually need this sort of treatment.

This would explain why Bosendorder could not compete with Steinway.  It would perhaps also explain why it had to be acquired by the more financially successful Yamaha a few years ago.

[michaeljames]

I agree with the poster who said that strings may to be replaced every ten years. 

I have my instruments tuned every two weeks and keep my home at a constant level of humidity. I can clean up unisons myself, but getting them to "lock in" is an art that I cannot seem to get the knack of. 

My technician is an artist in his own right.  He tunes with a historical tuning.  He's used widely by the concert halls in the Twin Cities. Before Dennis, I had a great technician who tuned with an even temperament, but every key sounded the same.  With a historical tunings, you can really hear the different moods of each key...just as the composers intended them to sound. It's a whole new world. 

Sometimes, strings can develop a "beating" that makes that string sound out of tune all by itself.  When Dennis replaced one of mine that was doing that, I had him also change several strings on both sides of that particular string.  There was a definite difference between the new strings and the existing strings.  (And the strings are not that old). 

I guess it depends on how acute your ear is. I play so many hours a day that I don't enjoy playing if the piano is the slightest bit out of tune. 

[withindale]

Michal, how many hours a day do you play on average?

[michaeljames]

Always 3...often 4-6 hours per day.

[awesom_o]

Bosendorfers have significantly higher string tensions than comparable Steinways and use much harder hammers as well. This combination leads to frequent string-breakage, especially when the piano is heavily used.

It all has to do with the fundamental construction and design of the piano. Bosendorfers are designed and constructed completely differently than Steinways. Bosendorfers have a much heavier plate (hence the string tensions) and much softer outer rim (spruce) than Steinways. In general Steinways hold up better over time, although any good piano needs to be taken care of in order to live out its days in good condition.

[withindale]

Over time the performance of strings on any piano may decline, not just Bosendorfers. Although the strings themselves may not wear out like car tyres, they can ride up bridge pins and their seating at the other bearing and termination points may suffer. All these problems can be resolved by replacing the strings and ensuring they are properly installed.

Some of the notes on my century old Ibach did not play properly or at all when it arrived. They are completely transformed now. Not a single string has been replaced but they have all been reseated. New strings might be slightly better for all I know.

Race drivers are for ever changing their tyres. Ordinary motorists find it cheaper to pump theirs up and remove stones from the treads from time to time.

[hfmadopter]

Race drivers are for ever changing their tyres. Ordinary motorists find it cheaper to pump theirs up and remove stones from the treads from time to time.

Race car tires are made of various compounds, all of which are way softer than ordinary car tires. This is so they grip the pavement like glue, the trade off is very very fast wear rates and that is why they change out the tires so often. They are shot and have to be replaced. The other change is for a slightly different compound rubber according to the day they are racing on and where they are racing.

If you are ever seated near the track down wind of the cars at a stock car event or perhaps nascar race, you will go home with a black sooty material on your face. That's tire rubber.

[pianoparent2013]

I am a parent who is shopping for a grand piano for my children. Bosendorfer made our list after playing several new and used models.  

Extensive research on-line exposed all sorts of useful and also misleading information. I rarely post and find it necessary to post here just in case another shopper shares our experience.

There is a Florida Steinway & Sons dealership called "Steinway Piano Gallery" and its website has a horrible description of every single non-Steinway piano. I am seeing the same misleading information here. I have to questions if the posters are actually dealers.

Bosendorfer needs string replacement every 10 years? How is it that a local University Music Department has 13+ year-old Bosendorfer still in use? We played several more ranging in age from 20-30 years old.

The comment about Bosendorfer string tension and soft case are not meaningful. The wording used seemed to imply they are negative. Yes, they are different than Steinway; but so is Fazioli, C. Bechstein, Steingraber and a host of other high quality and high performance piano. Different does not mean "bad". WHat of the Steinway teflon fiasco? Steinway is not perfect.

I have nothing against Steinway, and we are actually eyeing a Hamburg "A" for its beautiful sound but please do not make "Steinway" out to be something it is not.

For us shoppers, it is bad enough trying to understand the different brands, different pricing and trying to find something for us and our children, we really can do without all the misinformation. For you dealers reading, it only makes people like me less interested in Steinway through NO FAULT of the piano itself. The hype is a turn-off.

In a way, it comes across like Steinway is exceedingly fearful of Bosendorfer and has to resort to such near-unethical practices to win businesses. Steinway piano are very good, there is no need to sink to such pathetic depth just to make a sale.

[chrisbutch]

Apart from agreeing with everything you say about some of Steinway's dubious practices (I could say a great deal more), could I add the obvious comment that  children who are having a Bosendorfer grand bought for them by their parents are fortunate indeed! (Even more fortunate if it were a Steingraeber, but that's another matter....)

[hfmadopter]

There is a Florida Steinway & Sons dealership called "Steinway Piano Gallery" and its website has a horrible description of every single non-Steinway piano. I am seeing the same misleading information here. I have to questions if the posters are actually dealers.

Ya that happens but I don't think you will find a piano dealer amongst us here. In fact I think the only professional in our group who works on pianos ( vs sales) is Dan Silverwood and his opinion generally isn't biased, just very matter of fact and to the point and he is done with the subject. The rest of us have just been around the block a few times is all.

It's an open forum, you are getting peoples opinions, be that misguided or factual.

That said, pick a decent brand piano in great shape for your family, all the brands you mentioned and a few more that you didn't mention are way better pianos than I started on ! Any of them should serve you well. Steinway is almost always a solid choice but there are others as well. What ever you pick, if it isn't new then have a respected tech check it over before you pay for it.

[pogmoger]

I would just like to second what pianoparent2013 said. There is a lot of misinformation being spread out there, sometimes second hand and passed on with the best intentions, but also often deliberately. There are some piano salespeople who sell brand Y and spend a long time during their sales pitches talking down brand X which is sold down the street. Then you visit the X dealership, and they tell you how terrible brand Y is. Of course, broadly speaking most dealers are not like this. The Florida Steinway dealer's website mentioned above is a particularly crass example, though. Its worth a read just to know what sort of dealer you should be looking to avoid.

As for Bosendorfers being poorly built and needing regular string replacements: I have never heard this from a source that I know is trustworthy and unbiased, so I choose not to believe this.

[awesom_o]

As for Bosendorfers being poorly built and needing regular string replacements: I have never heard this from a source that I know is trustworthy and unbiased, so I choose not to believe this.

Bosendorfer pianos are not at all poorly built. They are one of the most finely built pianos available. They are built with finer craftsmanship than NY Steinway. The NY Steinways are less prone to strings breaking than Bosendorfers due to inherent design features in the piano itself. Nothing to do with workmanship or artistic quality of tone. Bosendorfer rates very highly among pianists and technicians in these two areas.

There is no piano that automatically needs string replacement every x years. Every piano will need new strings at some point, sooner or later, depending upon how heavily the piano has been used, and how well it has been maintained throughout its working life.

Personally, I love Steinways, and I love Bosendorfers. I also love Bechstein, Fazioli and Steingraeber. And many other pianos, too. Different doesn't mean better or worse. Just different.

But high tension scale + extremely hard, hot-pressed felt hammers=more frequent string breakage...

....when compared to other designs of piano which feature lower tension scale + softer, cold-pressed felt hammers. 

[indianajo]

Well there may be an advantage to tighter thinner strings that might break more often.  Listen to the piano George Winston plays on the LP/CD's Autumn and Winter from Windham Hill records. That piano has more PING to the attack than a Steinway, which is quite beautiful for music played to simulate winter.  Has anybody ever heard ice cracking off a tree and falling on the sidewalk,  or snow/sleet pinging softly as it falls down in dry weather?
I heard Mr. Winston in person play our Kentucky Arts Center Steinway, and the music while beautiful, didn't have that aura of the northern Great Plains in the snow.  I love my 1941 Steinway 40 console.  It is a great piano that has visibly broken one string in its 72 year life. It is fast, has a great tone, and holds tune well. My Steinway doesn't sound like Mr Winston's studio piano, which  may have been a Bosendorfer.  
If you can afford a Bosendorfer, I am a bit envious.  I'd like both the grands, but have room only for my little console.  thanks for listening.  

[hfmadopter]

Well there may be an advantage to tighter thinner strings that might break more often.  Listen to the piano George Winston plays on the LP/CD's Autumn and Winter from Windham Hill records. That piano has more PING to the attack than a Steinway, which is quite beautiful for music played to simulate winter.  Has anybody ever heard ice cracking off a tree and falling on the sidewalk,  or snow/sleet pinging softly as it falls down in dry weather?
I heard Mr. Winston in person play our Kentucky Arts Center Steinway, and the music while beautiful, didn't have that aura of the northern Great Plains in the snow.  I love my 1941 Steinway 40 console.  It is a great piano that has visibly broken one string in its 72 year life. It is fast, has a great tone, and holds tune well. My Steinway doesn't sound like Mr Winston's studio piano, which  may have been a Bosendorfer.  
If you can afford a Bosendorfer, I am a bit envious.  I'd like both the grands, but have room only for my little console.  thanks for listening.  

Indianajo ( or anyone else), please listen to the crystalline clarity in the upper register of this piano in this link and he will explain what the piano is. It is my new true love in pianos I must say, though I may never own one. His old piano was very nice too but a bit warmer toned. The link:

5q-sQ

[chrisbutch]

As has been discussed on another thread, the key issue with current Bosendorfers is the date of manufacture. Historically, quality control was more consistent than with, say Steinway: but there were lots of problems in the decade or so before the Yamaha acquisition of Bosendorfer (about 3 years ago) during which Bosendorfer went through several changes of ownership and lost a number of experienced craftsmen. Some excellent pianos were made in that period, but some not so good - so it's important to have the specific instrument properly assessed when considering buying one built during that time. I hear that the problems have been largely eliminated with Yamaha in charge.

[indianajo]

Indianajo ( or anyone else), please listen to the crystalline clarity in the upper register of this piano in this link and he will explain what the piano is. It is my new true love in pianos I must say, though I may never own one. His old piano was very nice too but a bit warmer toned. The link:

5q-sQ

Thanks for the link, but I my computer wasn't fast enough to play U-tube or MP3 until my recent acquisition of a used dual core 400 mhz processor mainboard.  Now I find that the software that will support Berkeley Linux recording suite (Fedora 12) is no longer supported with a plug-in by shockwave to play videos.    Until I develop a backup capability for the new tower, I won't be installing any new software like Firefox 8 instead of firefox 1.  I tried a new USB "drive" stick for the first time this summer, got three data transfers out of it before it started issuing gibberish.  Isn't all this new stuff so wonderful! (not). Back to the 33 year old turntable and hifi. I bought a used CD-ROM R/W drive last week; it is over 5 year old so probably I should replace all the electrolytic capacitors in it before I install it.    Meanwhile my 1941 Steinway made in Queens, NY plays on.  
I've actually only heard a Bosendorfer where I could read the label on The Annie Moses Band
program on PBS.  Not the most high quality recording, and my television sound is not all that great, either.  I've never heard a labeled or credited Bechstein in any media.  So there is more to live for, after all. 

[j_menz]

Thanks for the link, but I my computer wasn't fast enough to play U-tube or MP3 until my recent acquisition of a used dual core 400 mhz processor mainboard.  Now I find that the software that will support Berkeley Linux recording suite (Fedora 12) is no longer supported with a plug-in by shockwave to play videos.    Until I develop a backup capability for the new tower, I won't be installing any new software like Firefox 8 instead of firefox 1.  I tried a new USB "drive" stick for the first time this summer, got three data transfers out of it before it started issuing gibberish.  Isn't all this new stuff so wonderful! (not). Back to the 33 year old turntable and hifi. I bought a used CD-ROM R/W drive last week; it is over 5 year old so probably I should replace all the electrolytic capacitors in it before I install it.    Meanwhile my 1941 Steinway made in Queens, NY plays on.  
I've actually only heard a Bosendorfer where I could read the label on The Annie Moses Band
program on PBS.  Not the most high quality recording, and my television sound is not all that great, either.  I've never heard a labeled or credited Bechstein in any media.  So there is more to live for, after all. 

Life at your place?

[hfmadopter]

Thanks for the link, but I my computer wasn't fast enough to play U-tube or MP3 until my recent acquisition of a used dual core 400 mhz processor mainboard.  Now I find that the software that will support Berkeley Linux recording suite (Fedora 12) is no longer supported with a plug-in by shockwave to play videos.    Until I develop a backup capability for the new tower, I won't be installing any new software like Firefox 8 instead of firefox 1.  I tried a new USB "drive" stick for the first time this summer, got three data transfers out of it before it started issuing gibberish.  Isn't all this new stuff so wonderful! (not). Back to the 33 year old turntable and hifi.

Ok, well this was a brand new Kawai Shingeru in a recording studio in AZ. They moved out a nice sounding RX and put in the Shingeru.

i have no idea why Firefox  8 wouldn't run on your computer, I'm running it on a crappy Athlon 64 HP tower and on my i3 Toshiba laptop as well. No problems at all as long as the hard drive isn't loaded to the max on the tower machine. And if anything is going to crash it will be on that old HP.

[indianajo]

Thanks, hmfadopter.  That is more help than I got from the Ubuntu Linux forum, when I Installed Ubuntu distribution 13.  It loaded my CPU or memory down so badly, if I typed a word in text editor, it would echo about one character on the screen every 12 minutes.  The forum told me how to defragment my hard drive.  I had just wiped it clean and reformatted to put the Ubu 13 on, I didn't even have any personal data on it.  Will try upgrade to Firefox 8 after I install file backup capability (CDROM R/W) in this dual core tower.  (after the usb drive experiment failed). 
I heard an older Kawai grand piano in concert at a progressive pipe organ concert honoring New Albany IN 200th anniversery, in September.  The Kawai sounded okay, but nothing special.   

[hfmadopter]

Thanks, hmfadopter.  That is more help than I got from the Ubuntu Linux forum, when I Installed Ubuntu distribution 13.  It loaded my CPU or memory down so badly, if I typed a word in text editor, it would echo about one character on the screen every 12 minutes.  The forum told me how to defragment my hard drive.  I had just wiped it clean and reformatted to put the Ubu 13 on, I didn't even have any personal data on it.  Will try upgrade to Firefox 8 after I install file backup capability (CDROM R/W) in this dual core tower.  (after the usb drive experiment failed). 
I heard an older Kawai grand piano in concert at a progressive pipe organ concert honoring New Albany IN 200th anniversery, in September.  The Kawai sounded okay, but nothing special.   

I have a second internal hard drive that I installed in that old HP and I try to store additional programs and photos and so forth to that or to an external HD. I believe it has 2 gigs of ram in it, if that's any help at all. Firefox 8 doesn't seem to be a huge resource hog though, certainly nothing like Explorer ! Once in a great while you may go to a site that doesn't support it well or perhaps not at all. My wife has seen that on my laptop but I have yet to go to a site like that personally.

You will need to download a video program, I have RealPlayer and another one I don't recall the name of off hand on mine. For Graphics the HP has NIVIDIA GeForce 6150Le, so nothing special there, especially compared with what is out there these days. Once in a while I get a high CPU usage warning but it rarely actually stalls out, not in the concert series I linked you to for sure.

The dual core should handle it I would think ( I suppose it depends what dual core it actually is) but there are computer savvy people here who can tell you a lot more than I can. I get by with my computer skills and that's about it, others here are far better, some work in that field even.

This Shingeru Kawai is really nice, crystal clear in the upper register. I've listened to that concert series many times and am always impressed with the mid and upper end of that Shingeru. I have a powered three speaker set hooked to the HP and sound comes through pretty true on it.

[indianajo]

I was right, George Winston plays a Bosendorfer in the albums Winter and Autumn.  See this video: 

The MP3 sound is vile in this video, nothing like the CD or LP versions.  Even on headphones.  Piano is difficult to reproduce, and MP3 doesn't do it for me on piano. 
However if anybody is interested, Yahoo started shipping me ads at the beginning of some e-mails, that would lock up my browser software.  So I had to buy a used computer that runs Windows (bleah, I hate the interface.  Mousebound, like musclebound gym rats).  At least I found a book by Scott Mueller that alleges that most computer boards in Dells are made in USA by Intel.   BIIIG secret, you are not allowed to know that unless you buy a $30 book (or a 15 years old one for $2).  Everything I was ever offered in stores, the components were made in the land of disappearing farmers herders and householders that dared complain when they were evicted, and imitation baby formula with great QC paperwork. 

[hfmadopter]

I was right, George Winston plays a Bosendorfer in the albums Winter and Autumn.  See this video:  

The MP3 sound is vile in this video, nothing like the CD or LP versions.  Even on headphones.  Piano is difficult to reproduce, and MP3 doesn't do it for me on piano.  
However if anybody is interested, Yahoo started shipping me ads at the beginning of some e-mails, that would lock up my browser software.  So I had to buy a used computer that runs Windows (bleah, I hate the interface.  Mousebound, like musclebound gym rats).  At least I found a book by Scott Mueller that alleges that most computer boards in Dells are made in USA by Intel.   BIIIG secret, you are not allowed to know that unless you buy a $30 book (or a 15 years old one for $2).  Everything I was ever offered in stores, the components were made in the land of disappearing farmers herders and householders that dared complain when they were evicted, and imitation baby formula with great QC paperwork.  

Sounded pretty good on my tri speaker system ( I lost my adapter to use my 1/4 jack of my headphones on my PC's small port). I think maybe the track just is fairly raw and hasn't been refined. But I still think the Shigeru at Piano Haven sounds nice anyway ( Piano Haven AZ, not Washington, I think Washington had an RX) recording studio's latest piano, they had an older Kawai before last falls recordings though, actually I think from May on ( 2013) ,they then had the Shigeru.