Possible Hamburg D Concert Grand / Steingraeber E-272

[kalee21]

For many years I have owned and loved a Hamburg Steinway B.
Its tone and action have been simply wonderful.  This piano is now approaching its 40th birthday and certainly proves the longevity of this wonderful brand.
I am now considering the possibility of moving to a model D.  I know a few of these magnificent instruments here in London but all in very large rooms indeed by any domestic standards.  My own living room is some 15ft. by 24ft. with an eight foot ceiling.  The floor is a hardwood partially covered with carpet.  The B works wonderfully.  I would very much appreciate advice from  anyone experienced with a full concert grand in similar circumstances.  I simply cannot find the D in a room similar to my own.

[withindale]

Why not ask Steinway in London?

They proposed sending someone to look at our "music room" when I was talking to them in London last year, so I imagine they have the experience to give you good advice.

In the end I came across an old Ibach, slightly longer than a Steinway C. Our room is comparable to yours with higher ceilings and, though I think the Ibach is just right, I'm sure a model D would be fine too.

[sirpazhan]

its pretty obvious the D will be restricted in that room.. I knew someone with a NY D, in a similar room... years later they were remodeling their home and combined two rooms into one large room,, they slanted the ceiling and angled the walls, and replaced the carpeted/wooden floors with porcelain tiles. - night and day difference in the projection and depth of that piano.  

in your case, it will most definitely feel fuller than the B (not too much),  -- D's really shine given the proper room, which allows sound waves to project.

having said that, I wouldn't let the room size change my buying decision..  

[g_s_223]

It isn't clear from your post what age 'D' you are considering, which presumably could be anything from 0 to 100+ years. I recently heard a talk from a Steinway technician, and the gist of it in this context would be that brand new 'D' instruments are engineered to have the level of projection required for recitals and concertos in large  concert halls, and this helps to explain their success at this level. He stated that after around ten years or so of concert use, the instruments have typically mellowed and become more suited for chamber music and smaller halls, and presumably domestic situations too.

[kalee21]

It will be an ex C&A instrument, probably 15 - 20 years of age.
This may well take quite a time to find of course but I am not in a hurry.  Steinway London do a very good job of refurbishing these indeed, but one has to wait.  Your advise much appreciated.

[g_s_223]

Sounds like potentially a very nice instrument indeed. The main issue I'd say you face in the room you describe is that the ceiling height seems somewhat lower than the ideal, and you would have to manage the room damping (carpets/walls etc) quite carefully to ensure the sound didn't become too congested: obviously one would wish to play with the lid fully open.

Also Steinway provide (for a modest fee) paper templates of their instruments which you can lay on the floor to clarify exactly how, where, and whether a particular instrument should fit.

If you haven't done so, you must see the film Pianomania available on-line and possibly still on DVD.

[withindale]

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2109679/Steinway%20D%20for%20my%20home?.html#Post2109679

[wishful thinker]

I'd say that you room is too small for a Steinway D.

I have a rebuilt Bluthner concert grand in a room that is about 17*17*8, and it's perfect.  But it replaced a Yamaha C3, which whilst it didn't have anywhere near the depth of tone, virtually blew you out of the room in terms of dynamics.

Steinway, like Yamaha pianos, are designed to be "loud" for the reasons given above.  That said, all pianos (even of the same model) are different, and a lot will depend on the voicing, age etc.

You may well be able to get a feel for a particular piano in the showroom (by comparing its performance to other pianos there), or if a private purchase by comparison to the size of the room that it's housed in.

Good luck!

[bambarbia]

Steinway D is conceived for use at concert halls, but this is exactly the reason that it is usually a better instrument than Steinway B. There are much less Steinway D pianos out there than Steinway Bs, and the company is aware that the quality of their concert grand will be judged by many more people than their other models, therefore Steinway makes a special effort to ensure that each instrument is of the highest standard. I am sure you will enjoy the new piano even in your 24x15.

[michaeljames]

GO FOR IT!!!! I have two concert grands in my home...a Steinway D and a Mason & Hamlin CC2.  I, like you, had a B before these.  No comparison. I absolutely LOVE the bass in a concert grand...nothing can compare.   

[thesixthsensemusic]

If you go for the D, get some isolation wall panels (same sort they use in recording studios) and, even more important, bass traps;

purpose-made foam blocks used in the corners of your room to reduce annoying side effects from the reflection of sound waves, especially low frequencies - you can buy them at music equipment stores, especially those specialising in electronic music equipment.

The sound of a Steinway D is so huge that you'd have a risk of it being seriously impaired by the size of the room if you don't take proper care of minimizing echo, especially the effect that loud bass frequencies and corners of a small room cause. I am sure it will work because it also works for electronic music producers, who produce way heavier bass freqs and higher dB levels.

[kalee21]

Thank you everyone,
I have now started the lengthly task of finding just the right instrument.  The nice thing is that having a very good B as a starting point I need not feel rushed and can take my time. 

[polishookm]

Because you mention London you might try visiting Hurstwood Farm Pianos in Kent. No Steinways there. But magnificent pianos including full concert grands? Yes. It's a unique destination for pianists and pianos.

[kalee21]

I have visited Hurstwood farm pianos and have been very impressed indeed by a Steingraeber E-272 concert grand.  A truly exceptional piano, complete with mammoth ivory key platings and two compete actions.  This is going to give me some very serious thinking to do.  Your advice is very much appreciated.  Only an excellent Steinway D CD series will compete.

[withindale]

Have you considered comparing a Fabbrini Steinway D with the Steingraeber E-272?

Looking at Fabbrini's website there are lots at concert venues in England, Scotland and around Europe so you could hear them, play them, and perhaps buy one of them in due course; that is if Signor Fabbrini were unable to come up with one for you.

[polishookm]

Kalee21, I agree completely with you. That Steingraeber E-272 at HFP is a magnificent instrument. It just about plays itself! I've written about my (wonderful) experience at HFP on my blog. Two posts so far about my search (which ended well at the beginning the month) and a 3rd one on "lessons learned" will be up soon.

https://www.polishookstudio.com/search/label/piano

Take your time - you've have fabulous options in front of you. Would love to hear how all turns out. 

[kalee21]

Matters are progressing.
I have now re-visited the E-272 and also had the opportunity to audition a very nice Hamburg Steinway D.  I believe that in terms of build quality, the Steingraeber wins out without question.  For this try looking at the underside of the pin block as one easy test.  

Musically however things are not that straight forward.  The D has all of the richness in the deep bass one would expect, exceptional, reminds me of the 16 foot sub-bass on the pedal division my Walcker pipe organ (in another room unfortunately for size reasons - I obtained it from Germany many years ago and restored it all at very low cost).  When pushed fff and in very rapid passagework things do merge together and become somewhat ill defined.  Not a problem for some literature of course.  A very warm and enveloping sense of well being is induced in the player.  Personally I am of course very familiar with this sound as are we all and this is the real cause for this sense of security.  One does inwardly question however "is that really right?" on occasion.  I always find this with Steinways, the better ones less often.

The Steingraeber has fantastic dynamics and is exceptionally well balanced across the entire compass.  This really hits you within seconds of sitting down at the keyboard.  It never becomes distorted or muddled.  Tone colours are however there in an abundance, it is complete.  Its tone is incredibly beautiful.  The deep bass is there but in balance (on the D I have to restrain myself).  I find no weaknesses in the tonal structure of this piano at all - probably the first piano I have ever encountered for which I can say this.  This is the most singing piano I have ever played.  It does remind me of an excellent Fazioli I encountered some months ago but brings some of the Steinway warmth to the Fazioli precision.  Action wise, it is a dream.

I am tempted to say the D is the fantastic piano of the 19th century.  The E-272 one of the fantastic instruments of the 21st, but this sounds too trite somehow.

In all truth I believe both are absolute winners, but I must now choose!!.  

[withindale]

An enigma?

When you say, " ... in very rapid passagework things do merge together and become somewhat ill defined", I suspect Signor Fabbrini will know exactly what you mean.

This article is worth a look if you haven't seen it:

https://www.classical-scene.com/2010/04/28/thoughts-on-hearing-maurizio-pollinis-hamburg-steinway-fabbrini-in-concert/

[kalee21]

Unfortunately the Fabbrini option is just too expensive for me.  I have investigated it fully.

[withindale]

You miss the point. Fabbrini has proved the possibility of improving Hamburg D's. When refurbishing a Hamburg D a good technician may be able to give you what you want.

Apart from Steinway themselves you could talk to Paul Leverett at Piano Restorations or Barry Caradine. Good luck with your choice.

 

[polishookm]

kalee21.

the steingraeber phoenix 205 i picked out at hurstwood farm arrives on wed. of next week. "excited" is understatement doesn't quite capture my feelings about it.

a few thoughts from what i see in you posts:

it looks like the 272 in the right here and now is the piano you prefer. i THINK i'm reading (or i'm adding in) that steinway was in general the piano of choice before.

i had such a good experience with hurstwood farm that i don't think i'd do anything else related to pianos without checking in with them first. so if you feel with more attention the d might be exactly as you wish it to be perhaps hfp could help you with that.

you may have already seen it but i've been blogging about what i learned from the buying process that led me to the 205 from hfp. the series is here:

https://www.polishookstudio.com/search/label/piano

i have another post i'm writing up that i want to finish before the 205 arrives. writing about my experiences has helped me to clarify (in my mind) what i was thinking about.

good luck with the choice. i mean, either way you've got two fabulous instruments in the decision pool and i know you've mentioned the b that you now have. that's a lot of great piano in your neighborhood!!

[kalee21]

polishookm,
You understand my situation very well. 

I was certainly Steinway oriented, thinking them the norm for piano tone and response for most of my life.
The change really started with Angela Hewitt - her musicianship using Fazioli opened up to me the genuine alternative in terms of instrument characteristics.  I loved her DVD filmed at the Fazioli factory but especially her concerts.

Being also keen on the organ helped - there simply is no such thing as a de-facto organ type.

Hurstwood Farm Pianos are the only 100% genuine piano dealer I have ever encountered, I have dealt with a lot both here and in the US. 
Richard there is a gentleman of great knowledge.  Our ideas on the state of the piano industry are in complete agreement.

Steingraeber the only 100% helpful piano maker I have personal experience of also.  I find the big Steingraeber concert grand simply amazing.  Importantly also, I find this piano's tone beautiful.  I can do things with this piano without effort that I simply would not have believed had I read about another person having a similar experience on a post such as you are reading.  That is about as strong a statement as I can make.

I have a great deal of experience with the strengths and weaknesses of Steinway, I speak of both the instrument and company.  Steingraeber however are to me new and therefore  unknown.  I cannot afford to make a big mistake here so of course welcome advise from those who know more.

I have had bad experiences with Steinway when it comes to instrument rebuilding.  I know I am not alone in this. 

I am probably just "deprogramming" a lifetime of piano tone familiarity and expectation, now seeing the limitations that have always been there.  Again, I must thank Angela Hewitt and Fazioli for starting me down this route. 

Given the magnitude of the undertaking (financially speaking), I just want to dot every i and cross every t.  There may be something very important I have overlooked.  Steinway deserve full consideration.

I thank you and every one else very much indeed for your assistance in this matter.

[polishookm]

kalee21 ... take your time and let the piano choose you (rather than the other way around). and, NO, i don't believe that's mysticism.

the choice is huge. take your time and don't feel pressured. you'll figure it out ...

[withindale]

Mark,

Great excitement to come on Wednesday. Listening to the sounds in your Blues for Piano Keys movie I can hear why you chose the Steingraeber.

A couple of years ago I decided the piano would be a good project for my (not too far off) retirement and acquired an upright. I started to hanker after having a grand some day so, to see what I was missing, I went up to London one Saturday last Autumn.

At my first point of call I found myself preferring a Steingraeber A-170 to the comparable Bechstein and Bosendorfer models alongside. This was probably because its tone was similar to my 1925 Schiedmayer, which just happened to be the same size as the Steingraeber 138 across the floor. Of course the new upright sounded fresher with its 88 year advantage but I really wasn't missing much. So that was settled, no good reason to change.

I moved on and put a Shigeru Kawai, a Steinway B and a Bluthner on my shortlist at the end of the day. My budget for a grand piano would have to be £40,000. I'd buy a Shigeru to practice for hours a day and refine my skills, a Bluthner for its tone, and a Steinway for precisely the reason Kalee describes, "A very warm and enveloping sense of well being is induced in the player".

Which would I choose? I'd certainly be happy with a Steinway. I'd go for a Steingraeber instead of a Shigeru. I might fall in love with a Bluthner.

If I were undecided between a Steingraeber and a Steinway, I'd talk to Jürg Hanselmann.

For my part, the budget was affordable but not justifiable. Out of the blue a 1905 Ibach semi-concert grand appeared on Ebay at short notice.  I bought it after speaking to the gentleman who restored it a few years ago (though he forgot to rebush the keys). It sounds wonderful and its possibilities are endless. Waiting for it to arrive from Edinburgh was exciting too.  

[kalee21]

Much appreciated advice indeed.

I have raised an issue with heavy action weight already with Hurstwood Pianos, also with Steingraeber as I find the action of that piano heavy.  So it turns out do others.  We will have to see what can be resolved but it has been mentioned to me that this is inertial in nature with Steingraebers.  Steinways seem not to have this issue.  I wonder what polishookm has found.

[withindale]

Steingraeber claim the touch weights are low on the D-232 (52-48g) and the brochure on the home page of the website says the E-274 is lower (51-47g). C-212 are 48-47g. Maybe that's cover for an inertial problem but it's hard to see how Steingraeber would have such a shortcoming.

I'd like to get the Ibach down to those figures.

[kalee21]

Withindale

Very strange indeed.  One of the Phoenix concert grands I tried did indeed seem to have a low key weight, but the weight of the piano I am considering was high.  I actually measured this to the gram with Richard using his device.  It was in the order of 56 grams middle compass.  Something to be resolved indeed.  My B is 50.

[polishookm]

Withindale,

Thanks very very much for the complement - much appreciated that you took the time to listen to the vid.

Kalee21 ..I hear your concern but I'm not sure I can add anything that would help except take your time and the right decision will emerge. My impression is that lightening up an action isn't really that big of a deal. But I'm not saying this from my own experience - it's my "impression.". The thing is when choosing a piano there's the stuff that you can read and be told and there's hands on experience .... If you take your time you'll come to the choice that's best for you.

[kalee21]

I must say that extensive auditioning is the only way to make a choice such as this.  There are just so many variable factors.  Play play play.  For myself, the Steingraeber E-272 does indeed go further than other possibilities.  I am only considering pianos here which are absolutely recital ready and at the pinnacle of the industry.  The choice itself, given the calibre of the candidates, is highly personal.  I do find the E-272 the instrument of choice.  Factors such as superb support and a second action are important, but the underlying musicality is what really counts.