The Open WTC Project

[ajspiano]

Alright, so a little while ago I started a thread about getting an open-score version of the WTC made, that would be under a public license.

I can't find the thread, so I'm posting here.

This is a long term project, and honestly I haven't contributed much at all yet - however, one generous forum member (nick_op) has done some work and so I'm going to post the files here, adding in time as they become completed by myself, nick or any other willing contributors.

Please bear in mind that at this stage these are "just notes" (no editing at all) scores, and they have not yet been checked over for accuracy by anyone other than Nick himself. In time I'm hoping we can make these into some REALLY valuable teaching/learning resources with some carefully chosen editorial marks and accompanying recordings of different voice combinations.

In the mean time, here are the 3 fugues that have been worked on so far.

Book 1, Fugue 1 - https://www.mediafire.com/?434rv4bc1fd1tjw
Book 1, Fugue 2 - https://www.mediafire.com/?4bipq2s8zbkzb5a
Book 1, Fugue 4 - https://www.mediafire.com/?x2y8nxnwl9yf49t

[ranniks]

I wish you ajspiano, Nick, the rest and others who are going to work on this project very much luck!

Anyone who's positvely working on anything about Bach is a hero in my book.

All hail Bach.

[evitaevita]

I wish you wholeheartedly good luck!

Your project requires really hard work, but the result will be valuable.

[qpalqpal]

This sounds awesome!

Can you explain a little bit how your doing this(notation software, editing, fingering, typying it out piece by piece)?

How long will it take do you think? I'D love to use this edition when I start on the Wtc

[nick_op]

This sounds awesome!

Can you explain a little bit how your doing this(notation software, editing, fingering, typying it out piece by piece)?

I've been using Lilypond to enter the notes due to the great flexibility available - we can easily edit individual voices, remove them completely or separate each out onto individual staves. The initial learning curve is pretty steep, but once you're used to it it's much faster than things like MuseScore.

We haven't thought much about editing or fingering, that will require some discussion, I think. I've thought far enough ahead to include cautionary accidentals where appropriate. I'm working from a very old Urtext edition.

How long will it take do you think? I'D love to use this edition when I start on the Wtc

It's going to take quite a while yet - I started working from the beginning of book 1 and have progressed one at a time (though I skipped over one due to a discrepancy in rhythm between the three editions that I'm looking at). Also, some of them are pretty quick to do, others take ages - number 4 has five voices and is 115 bars long, plus for the closed score version many of the notes collide on the staff and need some manual adjustment.

Anyone else helping out will speed up the process greatly - I'm happy to provide template files and advice to anyone interested.

Perhaps someone can answer a question for me about Fugue 5 from Book 1. There's a rhythmic figure that repeatedly crops up (e.g. the third beat of the upper stave in bar 3) - in the Urtext I'm working from it's dotted quaver followed by 3 demi-semi-quavers (which doesn't even add up to a beat). In the Busoni edition the dotted quaver is tied to another demi-semi-quaver, thus totalling a beat. In a fairly terrible edition by Czerny that I've got, the three demi-semi-quavers are done as a triplet.

I'd really like to know which to go for, since I can't type it up until I know.

[j_menz]

Perhaps someone can answer a question for me about Fugue 5 from Book 1. There's a rhythmic figure that repeatedly crops up (e.g. the third beat of the upper stave in bar 3) - in the Urtext I'm working from it's dotted quaver followed by 3 demi-semi-quavers (which doesn't even add up to a beat). In the Busoni edition the dotted quaver is tied to another demi-semi-quaver, thus totalling a beat. In a fairly terrible edition by Czerny that I've got, the three demi-semi-quavers are done as a triplet.

The Urtext conforms to the manuscript (at page 3).  The same figure is also in the bass on beat 1 of that bar and recurs elsewhere, though there are other instances where there are only 2 demisemiquavers (which do add up to a beat).  Whether one follows Busoni or Czerny is a matter of personal preference really, which is no help to you at all. FWIW, I prefer the Czerny interpretation.

Whichever you choose to use, I would recommend a footnote by way of explanation. But then I like footnotes.

[ajspiano]

This sounds awesome!

Can you explain a little bit how your doing this(notation software, editing, fingering, typying it out piece by piece)?

How long will it take do you think? I'D love to use this edition when I start on the Wtc

So, to elaborate -

I also want to do open score versions of some of the preludes where that would be appropriate/relevant.

On fingering (and other marks), SERIOUSLY big job in my head-
I would actually like to have a digital WTC edition that contains something like this for every work.

• Closed Score Urtext
• Open Score Urtext
• Fingering/dynamics 1
• Fingering/dynamics 2
• Fingering/dynamics 3
• Analysis
• Motifs Only, for student to fill in their own counterpoint
• Recording - Complete
• Recording - Combinations of voices, a. V1 alone, b. V2 alone, c. V3 alone, d. V1 and V2, e. V1 and V3..  etc. etc.
• Performance Notes 1
• Performance Notes 2

...

Obviously such a thing will take quite possibly decades to complete - but thats what I'd like to do. Unedited open scores is just step one. For anyone who want's an open score now you can just buy one printed. There just isn't one in the public domain (and come on, its not that hard to copy out a score, who knows how many people have written it out by hand as part of their studies - this part at least should be easily accessible for free), and also not one that can be accessed as an engraving file rather than an untouchable pdf.

...

On recordings, I'm "in the market" for a quality rendition of the full 48 in midi. This is so I can digitally block out individual voices, and provide recordings at multiple tempos, and at a perfect concert pitch without having to struggle to play every combination in such a way that it would all fit together with some level of consistency and manipulatability (not a word I know). I plan to render it through a solid sampled piano program like ivory or some such.

So far I havent found something I'm happy with but I'm yet to look at these properly
https://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/make-table.cgi?collection=bachwtk&preview=1

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Anyone who's positvely working on anything about Bach is a hero in my book.

All hail Bach.

Hey I did did two p&f's from WTC but you don't think of me as a hero!  Well really only 1, I kinda half assed a 3 voicer.

Anyways, this is gonna take a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time to finish.

[ajspiano]

Hey I did did two p&f's from WTC but you don't think of me as a hero!  Well really only 1, I kinda half assed a 3 voicer.

Thats working on playing a bach piece.

Its entirely different to work on bach in a way that faciliates the learning of others through publishing your thoughts on the works.

Not that i'm claiming any heroism here, as I said I haven't done anything yet besides think about what would be of value in within the project.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Thats working on playing a bach piece.

Its entirely different to work on bach in a way that faciliates the learning of others through publishing your thoughts on the works.

Not that i'm claiming any heroism here, as I said I haven't done anything yet besides think about what would be of value in within the project.

You and J Menz are the biggest heroes in my book.


Omg lol this is funny, listen to this.

So as I was typing the whole 'you're my heroes' thing, I got to the word hero, and autocorrect changed it to jerks.  So if I left it the same, it would've read, 'you and J Menz are the biggest jerks in mu book'.

[ajspiano]

'you and J Menz are the biggest jerks in mu book'.

That probably would've been a fair comment.

[j_menz]

That probably would've been a fair comment.

Hey!!!! 

[ajspiano]

Hey!!!! 

..I guess I proved my point at least so far as my own behaviour.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

..I guess I proved my point at least so far as my own behaviour.

Don't forget, you and him are one.

[qpalqpal]

So, to elaborate -

I also want to do open score versions of some of the preludes where that would be appropriate/relevant.

On fingering (and other marks), SERIOUSLY big job in my head-
I would actually like to have a digital WTC edition that contains something like this for every work.

• Closed Score Urtext
• Open Score Urtext
• Fingering/dynamics 1
• Fingering/dynamics 2
• Fingering/dynamics 3
• Analysis
• Motifs Only, for student to fill in their own counterpoint
• Recording - Complete
• Recording - Combinations of voices, a. V1 alone, b. V2 alone, c. V3 alone, d. V1 and V2, e. V1 and V3..  etc. etc.
• Performance Notes 1
• Performance Notes 2

...

Obviously such a thing will take quite possibly decades to complete - but thats what I'd like to do. Unedited open scores is just step one. For anyone who want's an open score now you can just buy one printed. There just isn't one in the public domain (and come on, its not that hard to copy out a score, who knows how many people have written it out by hand as part of their studies - this part at least should be easily accessible for free), and also not one that can be accessed as an engraving file rather than an untouchable pdf.

...

On recordings, I'm "in the market" for a quality rendition of the full 48 in midi. This is so I can digitally block out individual voices, and provide recordings at multiple tempos, and at a perfect concert pitch without having to struggle to play every combination in such a way that it would all fit together with some level of consistency and manipulatability (not a word I know). I plan to render it through a solid sampled piano program like ivory or some such.

So far I havent found something I'm happy with but I'm yet to look at these properly
https://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/make-table.cgi?collection=bachwtk&preview=1

I really think this is an AWESOME idea, though it requires a lot of time and possibly a full-fledged team of pianists/musicians.

Why don't you guys do something smaller scale first that perhaps will serve a lower, more common denominator: the inventions and the sinfonias! Besides my selfish desire of a good edition with everything you said you would inlude, I think this task would be good because: 1. You can experiment more since it is a less serious work (right  ) 2. It would serve such a wide range of pianists and 3. you'll have more immediate results to share for feedback. Then, you should start this Opus Maximus that is the Well-Tempered Clavier.

But do what you want. Maybe the inventions aren't worth it. What do you think?

Also, what is closed and open urtext

Finally, this is a good article if you're interested
https://www.matthewtift.com/role-open-source-music-scores

[ajspiano]

I really think this is an AWESOME idea, though it requires a lot of time and possibly a full-fledged team of pianists/musicians.

Why don't you guys do something smaller scale first that perhaps will serve a lower, more common denominator: the inventions and the sinfonias! Besides my selfish desire of a good edition with everything you said you would inlude, I think this task would be good because: 1. You can experiment more since it is a less serious work (right  ) 2. It would serve such a wide range of pianists and 3. you'll have more immediate results to share for feedback. Then, you should start this Opus Maximus that is the Well-Tempered Clavier.

But do what you want. Maybe the inventions aren't worth it. What do you think?

Just doing open scores isnt such a big task, its just a matter of genuinely getting on and doing it - sometimes its hard to find time for something like that though when you're not getting paid.

Its the kind of thing that will get added to over time and gradually become better rather than one day years down the track its all suddenly there.

The sinfonia's are a good thing to do aswell, the inventions are not so relevant as open scores with only two voices (same reason the WTC preludes don't get a lot of attention in such a project). The other side of it is that while I would often encourage a someone to do a good number of the inventions, I wouldn't necessarily push them to do lots of sinfonia's, there are a examples in the WTC that are suitable 3 voice alternatives. So for me personally, WTC is a more productive project that fills more needs..

[qpalqpal]

Though I don't really know how to use Lilypond, is there any specific tasks I can help with? I'd be glad to. It can include writing scores with Lilypond and learning it and what not. This sort of project is something that interestes me tremendously because it seems incredibly useful. It's something Bernhard would want for Christmas but that he could have for free because it is open AND that he can edit and improve! I have a lot of time in my hands during August too so . ..

[ajspiano]

Though I don't really know how to use Lilypond, is there any specific tasks I can help with? I'd be glad to. It can include writing scores with Lilypond and learning it and what not. This sort of project is something that interestes me tremendously because it seems incredibly useful. It's something Bernhard would want for Christmas but that he could have for free because it is open AND that he can edit and improve! I have a lot of time in my hands during August too so . ..

As nick says, the learning curve is steep with lilypond, but there is plenty of documentation on it if you're up for the challenge.
https://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/index.html

If you PM your email address I can send you one of the lilypond files to look at.

If it seems too hard, by all means, check the notes in the ones posted above against a couple of different editions and let us know if you find any discrepancies.

[ajspiano]

It actually strikes me as the kind of project that would attract some support from crowd funding, which could potentially make it happen a lot quicker, but I don't really even know where to start with that.

..I guess it would mean that I/we could actually offer payment to anyone who worked on the typesetting, and you could get some properly experienced bach scholars to have an input in different areas.

[nick_op]

The Urtext conforms to the manuscript (at page 3).  The same figure is also in the bass on beat 1 of that bar and recurs elsewhere, though there are other instances where there are only 2 demisemiquavers (which do add up to a beat).  Whether one follows Busoni or Czerny is a matter of personal preference really, which is no help to you at all. FWIW, I prefer the Czerny interpretation.

Whichever you choose to use, I would recommend a footnote by way of explanation. But then I like footnotes.

Thanks for the manuscript, I guess I'll type it exactly to that and provide the two alternatives as a footnote.

On recordings, I'm "in the market" for a quality rendition of the full 48 in midi. This is so I can digitally block out individual voices, and provide recordings at multiple tempos, and at a perfect concert pitch without having to struggle to play every combination in such a way that it would all fit together with some level of consistency and manipulatability (not a word I know). I plan to render it through a solid sampled piano program like ivory or some such.

I don't know a huge amount about MIDI, but it's easy to get Lilypond to produce a MIDI file in addition to the pdf, thus it would be easy to produce them in all of the combinations of voices you require.

[ajspiano]

I don't know a huge amount about MIDI, but it's easy to get Lilypond to produce a MIDI file in addition to the pdf, thus it would be easy to produce them in all of the combinations of voices you require.

This is a last resort. The problem with that is that the performance will be totally flat dynamically, and perfectly quantized. The idea of the recordings is the produce something that can be interacted with musically by a student. It ideally needs to be not only a real performance but also a good real performance that encourages bringing forth contrapuntal lines and using varied musical touches etc. etc.

[nick_op]

This is a last resort. The problem with that is that the performance will be totally flat dynamically, and perfectly quantized. The idea of the recordings is the produce something that can be interacted with musically by a student. It ideally needs to be not only a real performance but also a good real performance that encourages bringing forth contrapuntal lines and using varied musical touches etc. etc.

Fair enough, I thought as much. I'll leave that side of things to you.

A little update: I'm getting comfortable with resolving collisions between notes and ties on the score in Lilypond, so should have a closed version of Fugue 4 ready within the next couple of days to go with the open version.

It was mentioned earlier by ajs, but if anyone wants to contribute to this project without having to acquire a whole load of new skills (such as learning Lilypond), we do need people to check through the scores I'm producing for accuracy - I do check them myself, but after typing up multiple voices and making sure they all fit together I'm usually pretty tired and have probably missed things.

[neuralfirings]

This definitely seems like a Kickstarter-ish type project.

When you say "Open" what exactly do you mean? Like a project that anybody can edit, like Wikipedia for Classical Music?

Because that's something I've been mulling over doing for a little bit. If so, a big challenge is setting up the user interface so community can edit/note/analyze/comment without too much of a hurdle (ie learning LilyPond).

[ajspiano]

Hi everyone,

I've put a fair few hours into this the last couple of days.

I now have files for more or less every work up and running, though they all have huge gaps in the content entered. What I mean is that I can produce a pdf that creates the framework for the entire WTC..  such as pages assigned for every piece, score structures set up etc.

Attached is the first P & F set that I've actually completed (with earlier help from nick_op) all the note input for. Book 1 Number 1 - which the open fugue is posted up above for..

This file shows both the prelude and fugue, and the fugue in open score, and so may give a slightly better picture of what may appear in this when its fully up and running.

It has plenty of problems regarding layout still but the notes are all there. I would be super appreciative if someone would be willing to check the notes are actually right. I just entered the prelude now, and its 1 am.. and I haven't had any coffee today.

..and i see there is atleast one error (prelude bar 7)

[brogers70]

I'll be happy to help, even if all I can do is proof read. I write out an open score by hand whenever I learn a fugue. The process of actually writing it out is helpful for me, so I probably wouldn't use a prepared open score myself, but it's still a great idea. I'll have a look at the C major you posted.

[brogers70]

I checked the open score of the C major fugue against my Willard Palmer (Alfred) edition and did not find any wrong notes. Looks good.

[ajspiano]

I'll be happy to help, even if all I can do is proof read. I write out an open score by hand whenever I learn a fugue. The process of actually writing it out is helpful for me, so I probably wouldn't use a prepared open score myself, but it's still a great idea. I'll have a look at the C major you posted.

Oh I agree that writing it oneself is a great tool, which I would recommend to anyone despite the access to a printed score.

It is however handy to have a printed (legible ) score for one, and for 2, a reference for ones that you may not be so keen to dedicate much time to immediately, or for students who are first time attempting it..

..Honestly, part of my motivation here is the sheer amount of knowledge I'll gain for writing out, checking, fingering, editing etc.. the whole WTC. Sometimes I wonder a bit about the scholars of previous years (as in anyone who edited anothers works in any detail) and think that perhaps the reason that they ended up so knowledgable is the choice to publish, and include information that they thought to be valid and wise. I surely wouldnt make available my own thoughts here (those beyond simply sharing an urtext open score) unless I considered them to be a worthwhile contribution equal to or beyond the knowledge contained in current editions of the works readily available.

I checked the open score of the C major fugue against my Willard Palmer (Alfred) edition and did not find any wrong notes. Looks good.

Thanks