eye on the page and the page only

[ladychopin]

Hello, my name is maya i'm 16 years old and I have 2 problems which i'll divide into 2 posts. (sorry in advance for my english).

A couple of weeks ago I met a piano teacher in the high academy who suggested I will meet with him once in 3 months. When I meet him he gives me a lot of musical advices. on the last time he asked me not to look at all at my hands while playing a piece and constantly look at the page clamming that every time I peek to my hand I lose my spot on the score which takes time finding back. It wastes time and makes me stop. He said that if I'll managed to do that, my sight reading is going to improve.

I have tried to do so but I just can't! I miss alot of notes and part of me is busy thinking where will the key be, and it's distracting.

when he gave me a new piece to read to him I couldn't do it. It was embarrassing. but when he pointed at a complex chord and asked me to play it I did it immediatly and I'm not sure how because it's not like I said in my brain all the chords notes and played it. he just pointed at one and then another and another and I kept playing it correct and right away. Then he said that I could be a good sighet reader.

So my problem isn't identify the notes but keep my eye on the score. plus, when I try to do so, I never keep the rhythm because I am being distracted by the guessing of the note's place.

Does anyone can help me?

[iansinclair]

Well, my friend hfmadopter pretty well covered the shakes bit (the only thing I'd add is much more easily said than done: ignore the audience.  Right...)

As to sight reading and keeping your eyes on the score, the thought is actually much the same: the more of it you do, the better you will get at it.  That said, I would also say that it is rare -- extremely rare -- to never ever have to look at the keyboard.  We all do, some more, some less.  Which ties into the second "secret" for sight reading (or any playing from the score; I was an organist for decades, and that crew always uses the music!)(and is often sight reading): that is, always be reading the music a measure or two ahead, if at all possible.  If nothing else, this will avoid winding up in a situation where your hand is hopelessly positioned for the next passage!

But like the rest of the keyboard game -- practice practice practice.  There's no substitute.  Sometimes it may be a particular passage or piece, but other times it is practicing sight reading, or playing for an audience, or whatever.

[ladychopin]

Thanks for your reply!
But don't you think it's more about knowing well the keyboard?
I had the opportunity to watch pianists sight read and they just set and kept their eyes on the score and their hand went to the right places all the time. It's like as if a person closes his eyes and know where everything in his room placed. I want to be able to do that with the piano.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks for your reply!
But don't you think it's more about knowing well the keyboard?
I had the opportunity to watch pianists sight read and they just set and kept their eyes on the score and their hand went to the right places all the time. It's like as if a person closes his eyes and know where everything in his room placed. I want to be able to do that with the piano.

You will one day, keep at it. And speaking of eyes closed, try some memorizing and playing with eyes closed as well. Not a whole piece but a section. When you get deep enough into the music this can happen. You must believe that these things can happen, they really can, put the negative approach aside. By that, I don't mean that you are obviously negative either, just that you must have full faith. It can be done, believe it.

[ladychopin]

I am quite negative about sight reading - only because it seems so magical! You read that I wrote I believe I can over come this stage fear but sight reading is hard to put faith in. Especially when being told that it comes with practice (beside the talent element) and I spend time on it without seeing any signs of progress. But you right, I must do that because it's not going to come in any other way.

Thank you very much

[ladychopin]

Just to be clear I'm not missing anything, "always be reading the music a measure or two ahead", means scanning with your eyes the current measure at first then move your eyes to the next one while recalling the one before it in your head and playing it?

[awesom_o]

Your teacher is correct! You must learn to do this!

Start with easy material. Focus on producing a beautiful tone, no matter how simple the material may be. Play it as beautifully! You can work your way up through progressively difficult repertoire, but wait until you are comfortable producing a beautiful tone, without stumbling!

[ladychopin]

when you started you had to force yourself as well? (keep the eyes on the score)

[hfmadopter]

Try to think more in terms of phrases of music than actual measured formula. Se runs, see melody phrasing. It may be half measure or half a line of music. Just look ahead to where you are going. It's like riding a bicycle or driving a car, you don't look where your front wheels are at as you go down the road, you look a 1/4 mile ahead, or through the next intersection and then more smoothly drive there accordingly ( or ride in the case of the bike). Same thing, in time your mind will train to be ahead on the written page.

[iansinclair]

Try to think more in terms of phrases of music than actual measured formula. Se runs, see melody phrasing. It may be half measure or half a line of music. Just look ahead to where you are going. It's like riding a bicycle or driving a car, you don't look where your front wheels are at as you go down the road, you look a 1/4 mile ahead, or through the next intersection and then more smoothly drive there accordingly ( or ride in the case of the bike). Same thing, in time your mind will train to be ahead on the written page.

Exactly what I meant.  Well put.  And keep the faith; it only comes with time and practice, and it may seem like it will never happen -- then one day you will find you are doing it without thinking about it.

[ladychopin]

thank you for your time and answers, I know it will help me 

[lostinidlewonder]

When I got better at sight reading I started to see the notes on the page as a mental image of keys on the piano in my mind. This helped me find notes by touch and sight, but the sight was only looking at the keyboard in my head. It also helps to be able to sense the position of the keyboard by the black notes. When playing a black note or white notes around group of 2 or 3 blacks you should have a sense of where your hand is and all the notes.

It is difficult to maintain this type of thinking if you have not trained it with easier music initially. You can practice playing the piano without sight, perhaps choose some notes and start playing without looking but see the keyboard in your head as you play random single notes. Then start doing two note chords maintaining a vision in your mind of what those notes look like as you play them.

[okanaganmusician]

Your sight reading will get better exponentially if you become good at reading intervals.

Reading notes is important but if you begin to automatically distinguish intervals from one note to the note (most notes tend to be steps or skips apart anyway) you will begin to take off.

[outin]

All the advice is excellent, but I believe many are not so easy to do at the first stages (looking ahead etc.) From my own experience I'd say just start regular practice and don't worry about the results, they will appear without you even noticing.

Just take a little bit every day, start with easy things where you don't have to move your hands around much. Then gradually go into more difficult material. The first time I tried to improve my sight reading I tried to employ some of the "tricks" given in this thread, but it just didn't work. It worked much better the second time when I started just reading things that are REALLY easy, grade 1 method books, the Mikrokosmos and things like that. Terribly boring, but I did just a little bit every day alternating between more interesting stuff (sometimes just a line or two) and after a month I can see real progress...start regular practice with easy stuff and before you know you can sight read things actually worth playing.

I also second the advice of playing your memorized pieces with eyes closed. You've obviously played for some time, so your hands do know the keyboard. You just need to trust yourself with it. I've noticed that I can play rather well without looking at all as long as I don't start second guessing where to go...

But of course there are parts where I need to look. But I have noticed that I'm getting better at finding my way back, so I guess practice helps with that too. What I find most difficult is playing pieces that are partly memorized...I just cannot make myself follow the score when I already know what to do. Finding my way back after a line or two is just impossible...

[hfmadopter]

But of course there are parts where I need to look. But I have noticed that I'm getting better at finding my way back, so I guess practice helps with that too. What I find most difficult is playing pieces that are partly memorized...I just cannot make myself follow the score when I already know what to do. Finding my way back after a line or two is just impossible...

Same here outin, the big leaps I've always looked for and at this point I think I could do them without looking but just simply don't ( I've tried a couple with success but really I'm comfortable switching back and forth for that). It's more of a crutch now that I look at the keys for the leap point anyway.

Memorized parts and returning to the score ? Try ( its working for me) this, just glance your mind ahead that you need to go to such and such a spot, visualize the spot you need to go to. Not the notes but location on the page. That becomes a little flash card event in your mind or it has for me, at about two bars ahead of switching back to reading. It takes deliberate action and the faster the piece the more you have to be aware of the timing. I use a fingering event as the trigger spot to think of the spot on the page where I will pick up the reading. My eyes move to the page as I finish up the last measure of memorized material, more or less that is. The eyes go to the page in the correct location then you pick up the notes or phrase and you are ready. It sounds very drawn out to type this or to read it, the action is micro though.

This is pretty new to me, it's since I returned to piano, before I left piano for far too long, I memorized anything I planned to perform for someone or something. At 63 and taking too many kinds of meds ( bike riding and drinking plenty of water has dropped yet another med though), I'm delighted that I can memorize a full page of music or transition of a rough spot over a few bars, thrilled that's working for me. But this all has forced me to read a performance thus far. Not talking about performing on fancy stages, just for gatherings of family and such, incidentally.

[outin]

Memorized parts and returning to the score ? Try ( its working for me) this, just glance your mind ahead that you need to go to such and such a spot, visualize the spot you need to go to. Not the notes but location on the page. That becomes a little flash card event in your mind or it has for me, at about two bars ahead of switching back to reading. It takes deliberate action and the faster the piece the more you have to be aware of the timing. I use a fingering event as the trigger spot to think of the spot on the page where I will pick up the reading. My eyes move to the page as I finish up the last measure of memorized material, more or less that is. The eyes go to the page in the correct location then you pick up the notes or phrase and you are ready. It sounds very drawn out to type this or to read it, the action is micro though.

When I do things I tend to work much on intuition (not just piano). I often don't even know that I've memorized something, it just happens when I play that I stop reading the score without me noticing it...and the place may change the next time, because I suddenly can remember another part. It's not conscious memorizing, but something that comes automaticly.
So trying to figure out the places on the score is difficult...just like it's a pain for me to write down fingerings, I just have no conscious idea what I am doing when things go smoothly and cannot go back to analyze what I did. I can only try again until I manage to figure it out...

Other example is that I tried to figure out if I am looking ahead or not when sight reading goes well, but I really don't know, everything just happens...my mind works in odd manners

[hfmadopter]

When I do things I tend to work much on intuition (not just piano). I often don't even know that I've memorized something, it just happens when I play that I stop reading the score without me noticing it...and the place may change the next time, because I suddenly can remember another part. It's not conscious memorizing, but something that comes automaticly.
So trying to figure out the places on the score is difficult...just like it's a pain for me to write down fingerings, I just have no conscious idea what I am doing when things go smoothly and cannot go back to analyze what I did. I can only try again until I manage to figure it out...

Other example is that I tried to figure out if I am looking ahead or not when sight reading goes well, but I really don't know, everything just happens...my mind works in odd manners

I get that, I understand what you are saying. Well, it will take a bit longer I guess but you will get there, no doubt in my mind..

[j_menz]

Other example is that I tried to figure out if I am looking ahead or not when sight reading goes well, but I really don't know, everything just happens...my mind works in odd manners

Not so odd. I'm never really conscious of where I'm looking, only that it's at the page.  I even do page turns without being conscious of them (if the damn book cooperates).

[outin]

Not so odd. I'm never really conscious of where I'm looking, only that it's at the page.  I even do page turns without being conscious of them (if the damn book cooperates).

Are you sure you're not just odd as well?   

In a way playing the piano was always very natural and intuitive to me. I guess that is why I have so much trouble with actually concentrating on what I am doing. When I would need to concentrate, it's damn difficult. Same with technique, it has been really difficult to try to find out what I am doing and how to do it differently. I sometimes think it would be better if my fingers learned the passages a bit slower, because when learning how to execute them I can concentrate, after that I just play...even though I haven't consciously memorized or the passage isn't really ready. It seems my method is something like "learn the whole thing a bit crappy first and then dissect it again and work out the not so good parts". After this process I finally seem to have the piece properly memorized. Nothing else seems to really work for me

[ajspiano]

In a way playing the piano was always very natural and intuitive to me. I guess that is why I have so much trouble with actually concentrating on what I am doing. When I would need to concentrate, it's damn difficult. Same with technique, it has been really difficult to try to find out what I am doing and how to do it differently.

I tend to think that there is a normal range of intuitive capability for humans, and that so far as piano, anything beyond a certain level does not fall in that range.

For all of us, the content outside this (individual) range, requires significant focus on kinds of actions which the brain/body typically relies on being achieved intuitively, and this is REALLY hard to do, no matter who you are. And I don't just mean pure physical technique, it can be in reference to whatever kind of mental/physical coordination is required.

..in the same way that if you had to actively and accurately regulate the amount of pressure applied to the ground with each step, it would require actively thinking about how to walk because its beyond our intuitive use. And if you try to think about how to walk you'll find it seems to trip you up more than improv things for quite a time.

[j_menz]

I tend to think that there is a normal range of intuitive capability for humans, and that so far as piano, anything beyond a certain level does not fall in that range.

But surely we learn to walk, and learn to hop, skip, dance and do pirouettes too in some cases. I think the range can be significantly expanded by practice in everyone. How much may be biologically determined.

[ajspiano]

But surely we learn to walk, and learn to hop, skip, dance and do pirouettes too in some cases. I think the range can be significantly expanded by practice in everyone. How much may be biologically determined.

I didn't mean to insinuate that that which is beyond the intuitive range can not be learnt. Or that the intuitive range, or level of material beyond it is a fixed idea.. 

[senanserat]

I concur in my limited experience that once you learn a piece, memorizing it to play eyes closed as much as you can gives your brain a better spatial memory of the keyboard. For example I can brag that I can play Bach's Minuet in G eyes closed (I know I am such a badass) nevertheless every piece helps to build your mental keyboard.

[quantum]

I did have a teacher that also insisted that the eye must be locked on the score nearly 100% of the time.  Had my doubts then, and still do, that this is a requirement for fluent sight-reading.  IMO, if one employs good sight-reading technique, momentary diversions from the score are very well within the capability of the brain to manage.  In fact, there are many real-world scenarios that demand the eyes look elsewhere during performance: conducting from the keyboard for instance.  

Another one of my teachers trained me to fluently jump around the score, while maintaining an unbroken musical performance: both backwards and forwards throughout the music.  I have found this an extremely valuable tool, that is far more beneficial to real-world use then a strict training of the eyes on the score.  

Piano music, I find, requires a certain amount of nimble traversing of the keyboard, and as such a certain requirement to know where to next place your hands.  Idiomatic piano writing often includes wide leaps and sudden changes of hand position.  When I play organ, I find there is a less frequent need to look down at the keys.  


For becoming more familiar with keyboard geography, I find playing in a dark room is beneficial.  It is not as drastic as playing with eyes closed.  Your eyes still do make out contrasting colours and shapes, but not to the same detail as with normal lighting.  Playing at twilight, with an open window, as the light fades is also another great exercise.  The gradually changing light conditions put an ever increasing demand on the player to rely on other senses in order to locate keys.  

[ladychopin]

I just want to say it been two weeks since i posted here and I DO feel a change! And It did appear without I even noticed.
I forced myself not to look at the keyboard while I practiced (and sight read) and now, I feel way more confident to do so! I need to look at my hands much less and things just works

Thank you so much for your help!

I have a following question.
Now that I know I'm on the right track, what should be my goal? what's every sight reader's goal? read a piece alone or with other players without stopping while adding dynamics and everything as if he leart it before?