Thumb/index finger trills

[asakyun]

While playing notes with your 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers.

How should I approach this type of trill?

[senanserat]

I had to do some trills with my 3 and 4rd finger for Bach's Minuet in G, and I found that the best way to control the speed and expression is to put weight in the first finger (in my case it was a ascending trill so 3rd) and make use of a good wrist movement.

My english is not perfect sorry...But the basic idea is using the wrist and not the finger itself.

In any case I have no doubt that one of the more knowledgeable members will be here shortly to expand my comment or berate me.

[dima_76557]

While playing notes with your 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers.

How should I approach this type of trill?

What does the music say? How far are you in your musical and technical development?

P.S.: In general: when you do a combination of elements, you should at least be able to work out the separate elements to a lot more than is required in the end result of both, because you need true indepence of the elements to be able to do it. Since we don't know you and your level of playing, I'll tell you this: if I were you, I would see a teacher about this, or someone who can give you instructions and at the same monitor your progress, otherwise this may be a sure way to hospital.

[ajspiano]

I would begin perhaps by performing the trill whilst also holding each different finger (3/4/5) successively, with a light touch (do not apply pressure to the keybed with the held finger) and through different rhythmic permutations....

E (3)
CDCDCDCDCDCDCD..

F (4)
CDCDCDCDCDCDCD..

etc.

........

then:
every 4 notes
E        F        G
CDCDCDCDCDCD


every 3 notes
E      F     G     F     E
CDCDCDCDCDCDC

..other variants.

begin slowly, focus on maintaining dynamic control not pushing speed. Controlled piano, if not pianissimo.

Consult a teacher, especially if you do not already have a very strong technical background. As dima mentions, doing this wrong is a great way to damage your hands.

play some fugues.

[dima_76557]

I would begin perhaps by performing the trill whilst also holding each different finger (3/4/5) successively, with a light touch (do not apply pressure to the keybed with the held finger) and through different rhythmic permutations....

We do not even know whether the notes should actually physically be held or not. We also don't know which of those lines plays the main role in the musical structure. That's why I asked "What does the music say?" This has great consequences for the technical execution. If the notes are not to be held, for example, you could simply "drop" your hand/arm on two notes simultaneously, release the 3/4/5 immediately and continue the trill with 1-2 and forearm rotation. Piece of cake.

[ajspiano]

you could do that.. though if there is any requirement to voice the notes the finger control will ultimately be required even if the notes are released immediately.

musical context obviously matters to the exact execution, I only meant to address the need for independent control generally in such situations...

..and I didn't think I'd be adding much just by saying it depends. Maybe there isnt a context? could be a general question..

[dima_76557]

you could do that.. though if there is any requirement to voice the notes the finger control will ultimately be required even if the notes are released immediately.

I'm sorry. I didn't want to sound unfriendly, and you are right about the voicing. It was just a shock for me to realize how much I had been holding in what I had played before that at closer examination didn't require physical holding at all. That's, probably, why I am now a little obsessed with the idea of avoiding it.
P.S.: Another idea for the OP: "Holding" is "resting", not physical tension.

[ajspiano]

It was just a shock for me to realize how much I had been holding in what I had played before that at closer examination didn't require physical holding at all. That's, probably, why I am now a little obsessed with the idea of avoiding it.

its never black and white is it? I usually find myself in a constant to and fro between the valuation of different elements when trying to make significant technical progress. Heavy focus in one area typically leads me to develop it strongly while neglecting something else - then I suddenly realise i've over done it and its resulted in failures elsewhere..

P.S.: Another idea for the OP: "Holding" is "resting", not physical tension.

Yes! I did try to make that clear by saying don't apply pressure to the keybed.  Whenever I touch on this even in person this point seems to be quite hard to communicate without really looking at the persons finger stroke individually. If they are not making proper use of the finger there tends to be a subconscious and steadily increasing "clenching" effect.

[asakyun]

Context:

Schumann Fantasie Op. 17 in C

Piano student for 12 years

Recent repertoire: Beethoven Sonata op. 31 no 1, mvt 1, Chopin Preludes Op. 28, nos. 8, 17, 21, 24.

And may I ask, why would this technique damage my hand if done improperly?

[dima_76557]

And may I ask, why would this technique damage my hand if done improperly?

Because nature did not intend for the hand to be used in such a way. The consequences can be severe. It all starts with a little pain here and there, but when a certain number of traumas and symptoms of RSI accumulate, you can get to the stage of focal distonia, and wave your career goodbye.