Do you know this piece?

[Bob]

Ok.  See you in 2017.

[bachrach]

One replied! "An Italian opera? Maybe Verdi's Otello." Who wants to go listen to it?

[Bob]

Ooo.  More info.

I was just about to post that this is going to drive me nuts.

Tonight I'm thinking orchestration -- Strings... and an oboe?  Anything else?  Clarinets?  I think the orchestration might be giving a big clue, a clue in what's NOT there.

strings... violins.  Low strings.
oboe    The oboe sounds good. 
Clarinets bleeting the background around :47

French horn at all?

No brass?  No percussion?  No piano/harpsichord?

[Bob]

Verdi - Otello - Willow Song - Maria Callas

That's out.

I didn't get a huge Verdi vibe from the original piece for this thread, but I haven't listened to a lot of Verdi.  

Not the overture...

Nope...

" Dio mi potevi scagliar..." VERDI - OTELLO Efe KISLALI singing Otello aria act III

Nope...

Desdemona's aria "Salce, salce...", from Otello by Giuseppe Verdi


Hmm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otello
"Instrumentation[edit]
Otello is scored for the following instruments:
In the orchestra: 3 flutes (the third doubles as a piccolo), 2 oboes, 1 english horn, 2 clarinets, 1 bass clarinet, 4 bassoons, 4 horns, 2 cornets, 2 trumpets, 4 trombones, 1 harp, percussion (timpani, cymbals, bass drum, gong), strings (violin I and II, viola, cello, double bass)
Offstage: 6 trumpets, 4 trombones, organ, bagpipes, mandolins, guitars"

Although that doesn't mean they would all need to play.  Absence of an instrument COULD mean it didn't exist when the piece was written.


No.

Giuseppe Verdi 200th Birthday "Otello-Prelude"

No.

Giuseppe Verdi, Otello - Act 4 Prelude/Salce/Ave Maria

[Bob]

The orchestration doesn't sound that full or developed for style. 


It's starting off simple.  Melody, accompaniment.  Folk influence?

Then goes a bit Mahler and Gliere....

And it's slowly building up, getting more elaborate.  Rising strings coming up toward the end.  That section is obviously going to continue...

I'm not quite hearing a vocalist entering in though... Or a fuller orchestra...  or soloist even... Hm....

[Bob]

Thin, undeveloped orchestration...  Suggests its early in someone's composing career.  Or that they never went on and did more.  That's from the orchestration.  The chords and how it develops sounds like they know what they're doing.  The boom-chick/mel/accomp could mean they composed it at the piano.  Romantic enough for the chords and drawn out-ness, but not enough in orchestration.

Which brings me back to student group, student composer? (that'll hurt if turns out to be a major composer), or student-level group composer like a school group composer....  But why was it 'broadcast' then?

[Bob]

Not the Gliere Horn Concerto...

Reinhold Glière,Horn Concerto.


We've got...
The key
melody, accompaniment
orchestration

And that someone must have recorded it professionally, and it was broadcast over (internet?) radio.

[bachrach]

Do you hear that weird sound at 0:13-0:14 right when the pizzicato stops in the strings? Wondering if it's just the recording.

[bachrach]

I think I hear a flute somewhere in there as well (0:49-0:57?)

[Bob]

Do you hear that weird sound at 0:13-0:14 right when the pizzicato stops in the strings? Wondering if it's just the recording.

The person recording made some more sound there. 


It's the ends of phrases that remind me of Gliere.

Could be film music.  The other stuff that person posted on youtube has that.  And there are online radio channels for movie music.


Orchestration-wise, smaller group... So earlier Romantic?  Late Romantic would have a giant orchestra sitting around but not used all the time (Mahler).  It's strings (using pizzicato), and some woodwinds.  Every other symphony I was clicking on has a fuller, broader sound, making this sound more like a chamber group.


Emotion-wise, at the very beginning it sounds happy/moving along, then turns sad/mournful.

Italian.... If this is Italian (still get a Gliere feel)... could be Morricone.

[dcstudio]

I'd lean towards this sound clip being from a movie. The youtube poster sitting in a room recording this clip.  That would make it pretty difficult to find, unless it's a movie that borrowed some actual classical music.

I concur    Sounds like she's holding her phone and recording it straight off the TV..    If it is a film score and she can tell you the name of the movie --  IMDB should have a list of tunes...   

[bachrach]

I seem to have found the uploader's Facebook page.

[Bob]

If the info here is correct, if it was a movie, it would be from 2011 or earlier.  If it's broadcast on internet radio, I would think it's not a current movie from that time, so probably years before 2011.

[bachrach]

Maybe the very end of the recording will give us a clue. It sounds as if something is being "unloaded". Hm...

[Bob]

It's the thread somewhere.  The original poster of this thread was recording it off internet radio I think.


I thought I heard this playing in a store or on classical radio sometime in the past few months.  Wasn't true, probably the same key/some notes, with strings. 


The mystery continues....

[bachrach]

I don't think the original poster was the person who recorded it. He hasn't been active for over two years so in either case, it doesn't really matter.

Someone should write a variation on this theme, get famous, then maybe somebody will recognize it. I think it's a genius plan. Who's up for the challenge?

[Bob]

True.  If you start making money off it, the copyright holder will appear.

Assuming if it's still within copyright.  If it's more popular though, more people would be exposed to it and would recognize it.


Still stumped.  Still me nuts a bit.

[rustleofspring]

Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti I would guess - orchestral interlude or part of an overture.

I'm sending it to my friend who's an opera critic and has 99% recall.

[dcstudio]

Which brings me back to student group, student composer? (that'll hurt if turns out to be a major composer), or student-level group composer like a school group composer....  But why was it 'broadcast' then?

or commissioned work with a specific set of parameters...  like they were going to open a new hot dog stand and wanted a special commemorative composition to go with the commemorative plates.   Maybe it's a commercial from China... who knows.   like...877-CASH-NOW with the Wagnerian characters riding a bus and singing Baroque style opera... love that one.   Maybe it's like Twilight: New Moon when they all get in the elevator with the Vulturri and there's Italian opera playing for elevator music...   thank God for the comic relief...lol

  someone please figure this out

[Bob]

Wagernian hotdog commercials?

I bet I've listened to this clip more than a lot of recordings by now.

One thing I don't hear... No popping of a record.  I've got a youtube clip on now too... Crappy video quality where the audio is warped a bit and there's a clicky analog video sound, a machine sound, in the recording.  That's not present in this unknown clip. 

According to the original poster, it's a recording of a recording being broadcast...

But what if it's not?  It sounds like a page flip in the beginning.  And pencil writing?  I was going to say maybe it's a recording from someone sitting in an orchestra... but then the audio sounds pretty balanced for that. 

[Bob]

I download the clip as an mp3 and am playing with it in Audacity.  I'm trying to compress it some.  It sounds like a southern voice saying "draa" at the very end wile the page is flipping.  That can't be part of the music though.  Maybe a flip on the radio channel?

[Bob]

Maybe low rumbling of passing traffic in the background too, but that doesn't help.

That southern "draa" could be the whine of an analog tape recorder but this audio sounds too good.  No analog machine tape whirling noise for the rest of it either.


The low "passing traffic" sounds could be from the person making this recording, or they could be in the recording itself (captured by this person's recording device too though after being pumped out of their speakers?).  If it's not a pro group, I could see a passing vehicle getting on a recording.

No audience sound either.  And it's a quiet piece.  Maybe there is no audience?


Open air recording though... The person who made this sound clip didn't record straight through their computer.  Why?  And they were they recording this in the first place? 

"Traffic noise" could be an appliance or something like that.

The speakers this person is using and their recording device still sound pretty good to me.  It doesn't help identify the piece though.  At least it makes it easier to listen to.

What about echo?  Reverb?  I do hear some space.  Not too much, not too little.  Maybe a pro recording?  I can hear each instrument, like it's meant to be heard probably.  Balance isn't crappy.  Knowing it's a pro recording wouldn't help that much though...

Strings still don't quite sound in tune to me.  Sound a little small too.  Oboist seems strong and oboists aren't always easy to find.  I'm still thinking college+, maybe a pro group, for this. 

I still get a Romantice/eastern Europe vibe from this.  Meter changes and the tempo pauses.  Not a steady a beat.  Could be classical... could be movie music too.

[Bob]

Who else would know?  Where else can we ask?

[bachrach]

So...

If you look at Sonia Asnaghi's Youtube channel (

), you can listen to some of her other videos with "unknown" pieces. This one specifically has a very similar sound at the beginning of the recording (

), which leads me to believe that it is the recording device and not writing causing this sound. And

as well.

One of her videos (the one with the Mozart) sounds like an Italian drama maybe recorded from the TV.

Another sounds like an Italian talk show with classical music in the background.

I mentioned before that I believe I found her on Facebook. If you want, I can message you the link.

[bachrach]

Or is this the scene from Amadeus in Italian??? Can anyone translate this? I hear the word "clarinet" and "phrase" and "composition"

[bachrach]

Yes it is   

What a great scene.

[Bob]

I found it!!!!!!!!

I think.....  Hang on.... That bastard composer.....

[Bob]

Aug 29, 2013 until today.....  Almost three years later.

I need to find the exact spot....  Damn, this has got to the be the piece....


From what I just read in Wikipedia, the composer has messed with everyone on style with this thing.  Dang....

[Bob]

Here's the original post for comparison.

This HAS to be it..... I can't find the spot to match it though.

[Bob]

I've got to be close to the spot in this piece.....

Everything's matching up though, except the composer but it makes sense.

Wrote this as a student.
Instrumentation is matching.
2nd movement I think. 


If I'm in the second movement.... Doesn't sound like it yet.  I clicked through the whole thing.  It's got to be in the second movement.

English horn too. 


And then the character changes.... 21:23 on this recording.
21:44   !!!  Very, very close.  It's a snippet of this.

If this isn't the piece, this composer is quoting the real piece then.


It's got to be here....

[Bob]

Quite a character change in this second movement..... Completely different style, except that it's slow....

Sounds nice to hear more music than just the original posters snippet....


But I can't find the exact spot yet.....

[Bob]

If I'm listening to a freaking paraphrase.... At least it's a solid lead on the real piece and composer.

The style changes a bit again.... and then back... Where is this excerpt snippet?  Frick....

It's weird to hear the original snippet fleshed out so much.  Finally. 

And then the music changes again.  I think the composer is playing with mixing two style here.  "Stolen" styles too... I may have just found a paraphrase then.....

[Bob]

Son of a.... I KNOW I'm hearing this piece, but it must just be a paraphrase.  I need an analysis of this piece....

[Bob]

Chasing down a potential source piece.... This is going to be really bad if I've listened (and been tested) with the original piece before.  But it's not quite making sense.... at least this piece I'm listening through.

[Bob]

Oi... I'm giving up.  

This is what I've got, if there's something here.

=1275

Charles Ives
First Symphony
II Adagio molto (Sostenuto)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._1_(Ives)
"However, this symphony is composed in the late-Romantic European tradition, and is believed to contain many paraphrases from famous European pieces such as Tchaikovsky's Pathétique and Schubert's Unfinished symphonies and especially Dvořák's New World Symphony."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ives
"He wrote his Symphony No. 1 as his senior thesis under Parker's supervision.[11]"



Hm.  It's not Schubert Unfinished, Tchaikovsky VI or IV, or Dvorak New World II either... I checked just to make sure.  

I kept hearing it in Ives though....






https://www.charlesives.org/programming-suggestions/may
 Ives also borrowed material from Brahms’s Symphony No. 1/i & iv (Symphony No. 2), Symphony No. 2 (String Quartet No. 2, mvt. ii), Symphony No. 3/i (Symphony No. 2, mvt. i), ‘Four Serious Songs’ (Op. 121; Symphony No. 2, mvt. iv).
 1833: Birth of Piotr Tchaikovsky at Votkinsk, Russia. Ives modeled his first two symphonies on Tchaikovsky’s Symphony No. 4 (Symphony No. 2) and Symphony No. 6/iii (Symphony No. 1, mvt. iv) and borrowed material from Symphony No. 4/iii (Symphony No. 2, mvt. v), Symphony No. 6/ii (song The Side Show), Symphony No. 6/iii (Symphony No. 1, mvt. iv and String Quartet No. 2, mvt. ii).


https://books.google.com/books?id=q3oXMl7v9zgC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=Ives+First+Symphony+Second+Movement+borrows&source=bl&ots=IjAVbsEEAU&sig=GgvKoKJDZThJ-hpj5CMH6RaIR4Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP3frf_-fNAhWHWh4KHaY5Ao0Q6AEIKTAC#v=onepage&q=Ives%20First%20Symphony%20Second%20Movement%20borrows&f=false



https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/osu1389279747/inline

[bachrach]

I thought we'd given up on this. I'll take a listen when I get home from work.

[bachrach]

There are definitely some similarities...

11:12, 12:05 (cadences)

21:30, 22:10 - Could definitely be a nod to the mystery piece.

35:00 - Maybe?

[bachrach]

Thought it might be time to revisit this after a couple more years! Has anyone made any progress?

[compline]

Listen up guys.   Do I get a grand prize for this?

The particular piece we are listening to is from non other than the beautiful,

Carl Reinecke - Symphony No.1. Andante.
Starts at 7.45

[Bob]

Dang... nice.

Right around 8:51 on this clip....
And back again around 11:30-ish...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Reinecke
Pianist too.
So German...
influcenes of Mendelssohn, Schumann, Liszt

Symphony No. 1 in A major, Op. 79, 1858


https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.1%2C_Op.79_(Reinecke%2C_Carl)

II. Andante (D major)


Instrumentation   2 Flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 4 trumpets, 3 trombones, timpani, strings


Dedication   Russian Grand Duchess Elena Pavlovna

I recognize his name but I haven't listened to much if anything by him.  Except that one clip over and over and over....

I'm looking at my comments from before:
Sounds Romantic.
I thought Mahler at first.  Then Brahms or Mendelsohn. 
Orchestral... I'm guessing this is an original work, not a transcription.
D Major at the start, going to f# minor by the end?
Tempo... Andante? 
Slow movement from something?  Not scherzo.
It's orchestral, probably originally orchestral.
Ouch... "It doesn't have brass.  No percussion.  Just strings and woodwinds."
It's sounds a bit chromatic.  The key sounds like it shifts from D Major to f# minor, a minor third.  That's Romantic.  I think.  If it's actually shifting keys like that.

Laughing about when I thought it before.

I wonder who performed it still now. 

=538
About 8:51 in again.

[Bob]

&index=3

About 1:20 in on this one.



Not German?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Reinecke
"Reinecke was born in Altona; technically he was born a Dane, as until 1864 the town was under Danish rule. "
"in 1843, through Denmark and Sweden, after which he lived for a long time in Leipzig,[1] where he studied under Felix Mendelssohn, Robert Schumann and Franz Liszt; he entered into friendly relations with the former two. "

Younger than Liszt.  Older than Brahms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Liszt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Brahms



https://www.allmusic.com/artist/carl-reinecke-mn0001775558/biography
"His sound is warm, his melodies flowing and sometimes majestic, and harmonically he did not stray much farther than the harmonic style of Robert Schumann. His orchestration is clear and colorful, and in his operas, he was more apt to adopt some of the innovations of Richard Wagner. "

This says German...
https://www.forte-piano-pianissimo.com/carlreinecke.html
Interesting page.  Piano rolls of Reinecke himself playing.

[lostinidlewonder]

Spotify is your friend.

[Bob]

Spotify is your friend.

Is Spotify able to identify music from snippets?

[lostinidlewonder]

So long the snippet is long enough I don't see why not.

[Bob]

How does that work though?  Do you just play the music into a mic while Spotify listens?  Or point it at a youtube URL?