Kissin Technique and 'hand type'

[minona]

No, not that type of Kissin', the pianist.

I've never seen a pianist with such a curved, claw-like hand posture. Since he's considered one of the most technically accomplished players in the world, it goes to show there is no single 'one size fits all' technique. Liszt was right not to interfere too much with such things.

I suppose we all just have quite different hands. Or perhaps we should follow the technique of accomplished pianists with the most similar hands to out own??

[awesom_o]

I suppose we all just have quite different hands. Or perhaps we should follow the technique of accomplished pianists with the most similar hands to out own??

Don't follow. Following is for sheep. Lead the way forward on your own, instead!

[blazekenny]

I've never seen a pianist with such a curved, claw-like hand posture.

Maybe thats why he always stretches his hands in concerto breaks. Also he recently plays works like slower Schubert sonatas and Scriabin sonata-fantaisie. Yeah, it seems like his hands are nearly ruined.

[j_menz]

Maybe thats why he always stretches his hands in concerto breaks. Also he recently plays works like slower Schubert sonatas and Scriabin sonata-fantaisie. Yeah, it seems like his hands are nearly ruined.

And several Scriabin Etudes. He also has a series of Rach 2s next year, so "nearly ruined" seems rather over egging it.

[blazekenny]

And several Scriabin Etudes. He also has a series of Rach 2s next year, so "nearly ruined" seems rather over egging it.

Yeah you are right. He has just one recital programme, and we all know that he has a much larger repertoire. Hell, he raises his fingers too high even in fast passages, and plays very convulsively

[mjames]

Uh..what?
You can ruin your hands by playing piano?
What?

[minona]

I only know Indian tabla players ruin their hands, and end up with 'claws' from years of drumming. There are guitar players who get strain injuries from playing chords, usually without the support of the thumb at the back. Never heard of it on piano, except Schumman.

[louispodesta]

Unless he has changed things up, Kissin does not play anywhere near the schedule of other concert pianists of his reputation.  He claims it has to do with quality of life, and not quantity.

I thinks he is lying.  This man has one of worst techniques out there.

His fingers are flying all over the place, and it really upsets me that the critics don't call him on it.  Well, they don't call Lang Lang on his either.

Lang Lang mashes his left hand when he plays chords, which in a word is nuts!  I saw him play the Tchaikovsky on New Years Eve a few years back, and at a certain point, he shook his left hand vigorously while wincing in pain.  It is called the ulnar nerve, and unfortunately we have all been there.

Getting back to Kissin, the reason so many hot shot contest winners fade away after awhile is that their technique will not sustain a week in and week out schedule.  With his recording contracts and high fees, he is able to fake his way around it.

Oh, and one more thing, if you think professional athletes are the only ones out their using steroid injections to aid their bunged up muscles, think again.  In her later years, Myra Hess used tour with her own private physician, who used to "work" on her during intermission.

And, if they ever start drug testing before and during piano competitions, don't expect the Russians to ever show up again.

[pianoman53]

Unless he has changed things up, Kissin does not play anywhere near the schedule of other concert pianists of his reputation.  He claims it has to do with quality of life, and not quantity.

I thinks he is lying.  This man has one of worst techniques out there.

His fingers are flying all over the place, and it really upsets me that the critics don't call him on it.  Well, they don't call Lang Lang on his either.

Lang Lang mashes his left hand when he plays chords, which in a word is nuts!  I saw him play the Tchaikovsky on New Years Eve a few years back, and at a certain point, he shook his left hand vigorously while wincing in pain.  It is called the ulnar nerve, and unfortunately we have all been there.

Getting back to Kissin, the reason so many hot shot contest winners fade away after awhile is that their technique will not sustain a week in and week out schedule.  With his recording contracts and high fees, he is able to fake his way around it.

Oh, and one more thing, if you think professional athletes are the only ones out their using steroid injections to aid their bunged up muscles, think again.  In her later years, Myra Hess used tour with her own private physician, who used to "work" on her during intermission.

And, if they ever start drug testing before and during piano competitions, don't expect the Russians to ever show up again.

Oh, look at that.. You're accusing famous concert pianists and random people without any single proof. Hmm, I guess there needs to be a first of everything, then!... Oh, wait!

Show me the proof that Kissins technique sucks, and that Myra Hess used drugs.
And not that sort of "It's common knowledge"-proof, but hardcore proof.

And one video of Kissin screwing up wont do it. Everyone can have a bad day, and that has nothing to do with bad technique.

[louispodesta]

1)  I didn't say Kissin screwed up.  I said Lang Lang shook his hand in pain, and it was a live performance on PBS.  2)  Lang Lang studied under Gary Graffman for five years, whose paralyzed right hand and forearm have left him unable to play since 1976.  3)  My coach was at one of Myra Hess' last performances in the U.S., and it was an hour and a half during intermission before she came back out.  Needless to say, everyone wanted to know later what had happened, and they were told that her doctor had to get her back in shape in order to continue the concert.

Finally, please state for the record that you or any student or teacher you have ever known has told them to play with the technique of Kissin.  Go ahead.  And, add to that the smashing of their left hand when they play a chord, like Lang Lang does.

[minona]

"This man has one of worst techniques out there."

Kissin is renowned for his note-perfect performances, so criticism of his technique seems pretty absurd.

Basically, whatever you think of his tecnique, it works. I'd place a bet that he and Lang-Lang can play better than you ever will, because in probability, that's most likely.

You appear to be criticising these pianists based on what their hands look like they're doing rather than what they're playing, as though we should judge it like Olympic diving or long jump.

Piano playing isn't a sport, it's about the music coming off the soundboard. The rest really isn't our business to criticise unless it's affected what we hear. It wouldn't affect what I'm hearing even if they take heroine!

[louispodesta]

Thank you for your inciting comments.

This website pretends to be a discussion about pianism.  It is not!

What it involves is a pronouncement about a particular posts favorite pianist.  Accordingly, Evgeny Kissin started off at the age of 16, and he probably has a few, a very few, more years to go.

So, in conclusion, I want you to state, as I did in the last post, that every student of the piano should just practice, practice, and practice, until they get the desired result.  Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, and Thomas Mark, are just very full of themselves.

I definintely want you to say those words, which are, technique does not matter!!!

What you don't know is that certain pianists specialize in certain works at a young age, they get them "under their fingers," and then they make a career out of that.

That is Evgeny Kissin!

[j_menz]

Thank you for your inciting comments.

This website pretends to be a discussion about pianism.  It is not!

What it involves is a pronouncement about a particular posts favorite pianist.  Accordingly, Evgeny Kissin started off at the age of 16, and he probably has a few, a very few, more years to go.

So, in conclusion, I want you to state, as I did in the last post, that every student of the piano should just practice, practice, and practice, until they get the desired result.  Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, and Thomas Mark, are just very full of themselves.

I definintely want you to say those words, which are, technique does not matter!!!

What you don't know is that certain pianists specialize in certain works at a young age, they get them "under their fingers," and then they make a career out of that.

That is Evgeny Kissin!

That must be a new world record for the most meaningless non-sequiturs in a single post ever. Well done old chap!

[pianoman53]

What you don't know is that certain pianists specialize in certain works at a young age, they get them "under their fingers," and then they make a career out of that.

That is Evgeny Kissin!

Yes, to make a career of both chopin concertos, a big bunch of Beethoven soanatas, the Tchaikowsky concerto, Mozart, Scriabin, Liszt, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov... What a tool! He should learn some new things already!

My coach just told me your full of it, and have no idea what you are talking about. S/he also said that the reason your coach said Mrs Hess was on drugs, was because your coach was on drugs. He said he was so high he actually tried to climb the stage while Hess was playing. When he fell down from the first step, he cried like a baby, asking the audience to change his shirt, because it was dirty. He then said that your taecher got completely naked, and ran out in on the street.

Since my teacher said it, it has to be true, right?
...

*whispering*
Psst! my "teacher" was actually me. I was the one who said it... But don't tell anyone!

*Not whispering anymore*
Tool.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not going to support any of Louispodesta's conspiracy theories, but there are definitely issues in Kissin's technique. They don't show in his accuracy, but they do show in his heavy sound. I'd be amazed if he could sustain a career playing big works into his eighties unless he has a complete overhaul of his approach to the keyboard. The intensity of impact when he plays loud is plain for all to see. He doesn't know how to make his arm into a truly effective shock absorber, in the way that masters do. A young man might endure that for a few years, but you can't expect to go through a lifetime without that having consequences. If you watch the very earliest footage of Ashkenazy he played with a beautiful fluidity of arm gestures. Just a few years later something in his technique had changed and you see many heavy and forceful arm gestures and a much more forceful sound. He ended up with arthritis and has to limit his time spent at the piano now. I anticipate the same for Kissin unless he learns how to achieve big sounds with efficient motion, rather than brute force. Ditto Freddie Kempf and many other young pianists.

[minona]

There are martial artists who chops bricks with their hands and fists into their 90's.

[louispodesta]

I'm not going to support any of Louispodesta's conspiracy theories, but there are definitely issues in Kissin's technique. They don't show in his accuracy, but they do show in his heavy sound. I'd be amazed if he could sustain a career playing big works into his eighties unless he has a complete overhaul of his approach to the keyboard. The intensity of impact when he plays loud is plain for all to see. He doesn't know how to make his arm into a truly effective shock absorber, in the way that masters do. A young man might endure that for a few years, but you can't expect to go through a lifetime without that having consequences. If you watch the very earliest footage of Ashkenazy he played with a beautiful fluidity of arm gestures. Just a few years later something in his technique had changed and you see many heavy and forceful arm gestures and a much more forceful sound. He ended up with arthritis and has to limit his time spent at the piano now. I anticipate the same for Kissin unless he learns how to achieve big sounds with efficient motion, rather than brute force. Ditto Freddie Kempf and many other young pianists.

Very well put.  I saw Lorin Hollander play the Prokofiev 5 in the 1970's, but in that he used to tour playing that piece, it eventually caught up with him.

He says that his epilepsy has curtailed his career, but somewhere I heard that he once commented that his fingers, and his wrists feel like so much broken glass.  That tells me that he has multiple stress fractures, that are not only extremely painful, but they will also never heal.

Kissin will end up much the same way.

Carl Friedberg played the Brahms 2nd in his late 70's, and Wilhelm Kempf played the Schumann Concerto around the same age.  Now, there were two pianists who really knew how to use their bodies.

[awesom_o]

Wilhelm Kempf........ really knew how to use [his] bod[y].

I'm not so sure I agree with that-I've always found this performance to be quite blunderous technically, both in terms of note accuracy AND sound quality. It's really quite bad. Bad rhythm, bad tone....

And it isn't just that one performance.

[dima_76557]

There are martial artists who chops bricks with their hands and fists into their 90's.

The nature of the workload on the body in defective pianism and healthy martial arts cannot be compared. Fast repetitions even on something as light as a computer keyboard or clicking a computer mouse can effectively disable the whole upper extremity if done for long enough with poor technique.

[louispodesta]

I'm not so sure I agree with that-I've always found this performance to be quite blunderous technically, both in terms of note accuracy AND sound quality. It's really quite bad. Bad rhythm, bad tone....

And it isn't just that one performance.

This is the performance I was talking about, and not the Beethoven.  Personally, I don't play it like this, but as Dorothy Taubman used to teach her students, after you play a note, don't hold on to it.

Kempff was constantly releasing the tension after striking a note or a chord.  And, he was always using his arm weight to his advantage.  That was the point I was trying to make in my post.

[awesom_o]

Personally, I find that performance of the Schumann to be also rather........not to my taste.

I find he often over-pedals things and has a rather heavy, poorly-voiced tone.


While it's important to not continue to press down on the keybed after we have played a note, there are many, many instances where we need to hold a key down for various lengths of time after the note as been played.

So, there are many times when we need to hold on the a key after it has been played.

It isn't enough, imo, to just teach 'after you play a note, don't hold on to it'.

[louispodesta]

Personally, I find that performance of the Schumann to be also rather........not to my taste.

I find he often over-pedals things and has a rather heavy, poorly-voiced tone.


While it's important to not continue to press down on the keybed after we have played a note, there are many, many instances where we need to hold a key down for various lengths of time after the note as been played.

So, there are many times when we need to hold on the a key after it has been played.

It isn't enough, imo, to just teach 'after you play a note, don't hold on to it'.

Very well put.

However, one of the major flaws of young students is that, as a result of them all starting off on Bach, they get into this habit of not letting go of a key or chord after they have played it.

My rule of thumb, which Horowitz never followed, is that if the audience or the listener can actually hear the held note, then, yes, you should hold it.  Dorothy Taubman's philosophy was to just pedal it, which I think is also wrong.

A perfect example is L'isle joyeuse.

I accent those notes in the thumb of the right hand because, contrary to popular opinion, when you break the beginning two notes (my original post), you can actually hear the held-over note.

Finally, per this particular post, my point with Kempff, as opposed to Kissin, is that he, albeit somewhat clumsy, had a sense of balance at the piano, and Kissin is just flying all over the place.  The bad part of that is, as in Lang Lang, that young pianists will copy this very bad technical behavior.
 

[nyiregyhazi]

Very well put.

However, one of the major flaws of young students is that, as a result of them all starting off on Bach, they get into this habit of not letting go of a key or chord after they have played it.


 

That's just silly to call that a flaw. There are good ways and bad ways of keeping notes held. Many pianists get it badly wrong, but the answer is not to shy away from holding notes as a rule. The moments where you liberate yourself must be judiciously chosen exceptions, not the norm. If it's generally strenuous to have to keep a key depressed, that points a finger straight at bad technique.

Also, the tension release explanation totally misses the mark. It's like suggesting it's fine to jump in the air and slam back down into the floor with tightly clenched legs, as long as you allow your knees to buckle after you already landed stiff. The bit where you're simply standing or holding a key down should be easy- not any kind of burden whatsoever. And if you end up in a position where you have something to urgently need to relax from, you've already gone and done the real damage during the moment of impact. Relaxing after the event occurred merely builds up a cycle of forgiving significant tensions yet instantly fleeing from the extremely low effort but useful activities required for the most effective balance. It's absolutely ruinous to technique unless you learn to evolve seamlessly from playing a chord to balance, with neither a moment of impact or anything to perceive yourself needing to let go of. Forgiving the large wasted efforts and then thinking you need to run away from the tiny ones (as if you can cure a car crash by cutting the engine quickly enough after it already happened) is simply barmy.

[j_menz]

My rule of thumb, which Horowitz never followed,

Now we know what he was reacting to

[awesom_o]

The bit where you're simply standing or holding a key down should be easy- not any kind of burden whatsoever. And if you end up in a position where you have something to urgently need to relax from, you've already gone and done the real damage during the moment of impact. 

THIS is very correct and worth noting.

[karenvcruz]

I also wondered about Kissin's hand position when he plays.  I notice he lifts his finger quite high particularly when he played pieces like Bach's Siciliano.

I was curious though if he may have used Hanon intensively.  I recall reading in of the threads that Russians are quite intensive on Hanon.  I also remember that when I was a child, I had an older version of Hanon and there was some sort of a footnote or a paragraph at the bottom of the page of exercise 1 that said: We should play the Hanon exercises by raising our fingers high until it developed strength, particularly for the 4th and 5th fingers.  I recall I followed this until I had a change of professors who taught me a better to curve my fingers, practice slow all over again until I get the position right.  I have to admit though that I found the one written in the old Hanon book tiring on the forearm.

I had another professor though who also operated similarly to Kissin's position.  and from this one professor, she mentioned that we have different anatomical formations although we do have the same parts of the hand, fingers, forearm, etc.  One needs to find what would be the best and most comfortable position for us.  If we are feeling pain, that is the hint or signal that we are not doing it right.

Perhaps, for Kissin, Lang Lang, those are the positions that may suit them well.  On whether they are gradually damaging their muscles or nerves may be something else.

[minona]

Ha-ha! Many of you are talking as though it's already happened, that Kissin and Lang Lang have had to quit playing due to damaged muscles. 'Experts' said to singer Tom Jones his voice would be ruined by the age of 40 and he's still singing in his 70s!

Now, with regard to Kissin's technique. I've been experimenting with that hand posture and I think many of you are wrong about the 'impact'. I think his secret is that the impact is shared among all the joints of the hand, like a spider landing on the ground. The legs/fingers absorb the impact like a suspension. Also, I think that posture does allow a very even tone and accurate fingering from the beginning. I'm very impressed with it.

[awesom_o]

If you understand Kissin's secret, that means you must be good! Why don't you post something in the audition room??

[louispodesta]

Here are two links of Enrico Pace playing the Totentanz.  One was recorded when he won the Liszt Competition in 1989, and the other is 20 years later.  This is what I refer to as tension and release.

I would be interested in Nyregehazi's take on this.

[minona]

When these great pianists get 'past their athletic best' in the demanding piano concert world, why not switch to organ or harpsichord? They could take lessons in the foot work in their spare time over many years, 10 minutes a day would probably suffice.

How much to they have to proove themselves on the piano in one lifetime? There seems to be an extreme lack of adventurousness to explore new or old or different avenues in the classical world. It's all the same path, the same goals, the same pieces over and over again. They talk about the 'Rach III' stuff is as though it's an Olympic sport.

[awesom_o]

I'm starting to wonder if you have thick, green, troll fingers that may be too large to even play the piano.

Why don't you share some home recordings over in the audition room instead of starting all of these inflammatory threads?

That way we can all help you become a better pianist! Which is surely the purpose of the forums, after all..... 

[minona]

I'm starting to wonder if you have thick, green, troll fingers that may be too large to even play the piano.

That way we can all help you become a better pianist! Which is surely the purpose of the forums, after all..... 

Er.... is it me that is saying the "inflammatory" things about these masters having terrible technique? What exactly is inflammatory about what I've posted...? You mean looking at things a different way? Considering different ways? That constitutes being a troll? Oh, Okay, "think orthodox, orthodox, orthodox". No sorry, there's no such thing!

I suspect, perhaps, that it is my comment about creativity that touches a raw nerve. So do Robert Levin's views I've noticed. Imagination, creativity, the willingness to explore ... or the very lack of it, is what I am most passionate about!

Why don't you share some home recordings over in the audition room instead of starting all of these inflammatory threads?

I wonder if you're the troll. Perhaps I offended another alias of yours so you're asking me to film myself? I don't have equipment and I'm not knowledgeable about technology and I'm not interested in me being on the net thanks.

All I said is I tried a Kissin-like  hand posture and it was surprisingly effective. I didn't say I'd discovered some 'secret' technique. It's not secret is it? It's there for you to see and hear on Youtube!

[pianoman53]

Or, it is as simple as this: If they say that pianists with that sort of technique will get injured and stop playing, they will eventually be correct. Eventually, someone will get injured. And then they can say the "See, I told you so!".

It's exactly like the people who said that there will be an economic crisis. If you say it every year, you will eventually be correct, and then you can come with your deep theories on how if should have been done instead.


He has played like 60 concerts a year, for at least 20 years. If his fingers manages now, they will probably manage another 20 years...

[louispodesta]

He has played like 60 concerts a year, for at least 20 years. If his fingers manages now, they will probably manage another 20 years...

Please cite your source, in regards the number of concert dates!

[nyiregyhazi]

Here are two links of Enrico Pace playing the Totentanz.  One was recorded when he won the Liszt Competition in 1989, and the other is 20 years later.  This is what I refer to as tension and release.

I would be interested in Nyregehazi's take on this.

If you want to see that as landing with a tensed hand and then relaxing it after impact, by all means do. You won't achieve what he does with such an intent, however, when you play yourself. I see plenty of hand movement and plenty of redirection of momentum away from a stiff landing. That's done with active creation of movement within the hand. Not by stiffening in a bid to prevent movement and then turning into uncontrolled jelly. It's done by standing the hand up into a place of simple freedom, via movement. Impact is caused by abrupt stop of momentum. Not by forgetting to flop after that happened. The solution is to avoid stopping dead by using movement to spring the remaining momentum in the opposite direction.

When you knock on a door, do you propel your whole arm at it, tense through the hit and then collapse it to your side- as if it would fix the impact that you made? I don't. I start to slow down my arm at the last moment and let the momentum of the hand alone fly out into the door and rebound off- without the rest of my arm's momentum compressing it against the door. There's no moment of tension and to merely label it as relaxation is not a remotely meaningful description- of how the arm accelerates the hand and then retracts, to allow the hand to fly out freely.

It's the same at the piano. You have to be using movement in the fingers to rebound momentum- just as someone throws themself onward when they skip between stepping stones. They don't land on a rigid leg and then immediately buckle their knees/fall to the ground, after the damage was done. You need to actively channel the momentum elsewhere. If you think the idea of tensing during a moment of impact and then relaxing after has the first thing to do with piano playing, you should seriously stop to try knocking on a door/skipping onto a foot with the same flawed attitude and observe the atrocious results.

Tension causes impact, true relaxation allows the hand to collapse in the polar opposite manner to the style of movement that can safely spring momentum back away from a crash landing. Both are woefully poor at describing the functional action and are just destructively oversimplified.

[louispodesta]

If you want to see that as landing with a tensed hand and then relaxing it after impact, by all means do. You won't achieve what he does with such an intent, however, when you play yourself. I see plenty of hand movement and plenty of redirection of momentum away from a stiff landing. That's done with active creation of movement within the hand. Not by stiffening in a bid to prevent movement and then turning into uncontrolled jelly. It's done by standing the hand up into a place of simple freedom, via movement. Impact is caused by abrupt stop of momentum. Not by forgetting to flop after that happened. The solution is to avoid stopping dead by using movement to spring the remaining momentum in the opposite direction.

When you knock on a door, do you propel your whole arm at it, tense through the hit and then collapse it to your side- as if it would fix the impact that you made? I don't. I start to slow down my arm at the last moment and let the momentum of the hand alone fly out into the door and rebound off- without the rest of my arm's momentum compressing it against the door. There's no moment of tension and to merely label it as relaxation is not a remotely meaningful description- of how the arm accelerates the hand and then retracts, to allow the hand to fly out freely.

It's the same at the piano. You have to be using movement in the fingers to rebound momentum- just as someone throws themself onward when they skip between stepping stones. They don't land on a rigid leg and then immediately buckle their knees/fall to the ground, after the damage was done. You need to actively channel the momentum elsewhere. If you think the idea of tensing during a moment of impact and then relaxing after has the first thing to do with piano playing, you should seriously stop to try knocking on a door/skipping onto a foot with the same flawed attitude and observe the atrocious results.

Tension causes impact, true relaxation allows the hand to collapse in the polar opposite manner to the style of movement that can safely spring momentum back away from a crash landing. Both are woefully poor at describing the functional action and are just destructively oversimplified.

- For once, a purposeful discourse.

 Do you know what the difference is between God and Nyiregyhazi?  God does not continually post analysies stating in so many words that he is Nyiregyhazi .

[nyiregyhazi]

- For once, a purposeful discourse.

 Do you know what the difference is between God and Nyiregyhazi?  God does not continually post analysies stating in so many words that he is Nyiregyhazi .

Sure, heckle away. Don't bother to seriously ask why a technique that would cause you tremendous harm when knocking on a door might serve you better when playing the piano for long hours. If you want to rely on the theory that requires the space-time continuum to unravel (in order to remove the damage of an impact that is already existing in the past), by all means dig your own grave. Please just don't try to drag anyone else with you.

[swagmaster420x]

 I start to slow down my arm at the last moment and let the momentum of the hand alone fly out into the door and rebound off- without the rest of my arm's momentum compressing it against the door. There's no moment of tension and to merely label it as relaxation is not a remotely meaningful description- of how the arm accelerates the hand and then retracts, to allow the hand to fly out freely.

It's the same at the piano. You have to be using movement in the fingers to rebound momentum- just as someone throws themself onward when they skip between stepping stones. They don't land on a rigid leg and then immediately buckle their knees/fall to the ground, after the damage was done. You need to actively channel the momentum elsewhere. If you think the idea of tensing during a moment of impact and then relaxing after has the first thing to do with piano playing, you should seriously stop to try knocking on a door/skipping onto a foot with the same flawed attitude and observe the atrocious results.

Tension causes impact, true relaxation allows the hand to collapse in the polar opposite manner to the style of movement that can safely spring momentum back away from a crash landing. Both are woefully poor at describing the functional action and are just destructively oversimplified.

if you try to retract your fingers immediately after you touch the keys, don't you shorten the time of impact? and by shortening the impact, the average force is greater because your finger's momentum is transferred more quickly?

do you really slow down your fingers before they hit the keys? i would simply call it only applying an acceleration to my fingers at the beginning of their descent and immediately after simply letting them fall down to hit the keys. wouldnt trying to retract them also apply a tension, because you are trying to accelerate your fingers in the opposite direction? if you simply let the fingers fall, then you can have true relaxation in the fingers.

plus i watched the video of that guy hammering on the piano, just because he pushes the notes down hard and full doesnt mean his hand is tensed. the muscle that is sticking his hand to the keys in the spamming chords section is in the arm, so his arm is tensed but not necessarily his fingers.

thanks for your post nyiregyhazi, i think it gets the point across very well

and louispodesta is retarded

[nyiregyhazi]

if you try to retract your fingers immediately after you touch the keys, don't you shorten the time of impact? and by shortening the impact, the average force is greater because your finger's momentum is transferred more quickly?

Who said retract the fingers after? The rebound pushes the knuckle up. You don't have to let go of the keys to allow this. Also, intending finger retraction would actively reduce the force, so the logic wouldn't follow, even if doing so. A retraction of arm (not finger!) helps to separate hand and arm- so the momentum of the whole arm is not going to crash through the hand. Instead, at the last moment it the hand can fly free on the momentum it already acquired- without extra mass from the arm crashing down upon it into a hard landing. This makes it expand into length- eliminating all the wastage that comes when a relaxed finger droops into collapse, under the burden of active arm force.

do you really slow down your fingers before they hit the keys? i would simply call it only applying an acceleration to my fingers at the beginning of their descent and immediately after simply letting them fall down to hit the keys. wouldnt trying to retract them also apply a tension, because you are trying to accelerate your fingers in the opposite direction? if you simply let the fingers fall, then you can have true relaxation in the fingers.

You misunderstand me. Slowing down the fingers between escapement and keybed is a ludicrous, implausible myth. I didn't argue for that at all. The arm starts slowing down- which allows the fingers to fly out into length without a trace of slowing down. This also makes room to bounce the smaller amount of momentum back up (compared to when the whole arm is still plummeting down- which means more momentum and no scope to send that momentum back away).

plus i watched the video of that guy hammering on the piano, just because he pushes the notes down hard and full doesnt mean his hand is tensed. the muscle that is sticking his hand to the keys in the spamming chords section is in the arm, so his arm is tensed but not necessarily his fingers.

How come they don't collapse though? It's not about tensing anything or being relaxaed or even any half-way stage. It's about using timed movement to replace any need to be immobilising things against the collapse that occurs when truly relaxed. When something moves in a useful direction, it doesn't need to brace against movement in the opposite and unwanted direction.

[swagmaster420x]

ohh thanks for clearing things up
i can now see how arching the wrist allows the fingers to contact the keys without having the wrist drag the hand down with the weight of the arm
would you might explaining why arching the wrist allows the fingers to absorb the impact rather than the wrist?
i have some idea of why, i imagine it's because if the wrist is parallel with the keys while the fingers are perpendicular, then they share no components in the same dimension and thus the force isn't applied to the fingers, and if the wrist is arched high then it can apply a force in the direction of the fingers, which should be parallel to the keys...

but im probably oversimplifying/missing a few things, im interested in the physics though


so it's not a good idea to play loud chords with your wrists low?

[karenvcruz]

I remember watching Freddy Kempf playing the first movement of Beethoven's Sonata Pathetique.  There was one instance where he played one chord loud with low wrist.  I wondered if it was because he was getting tired, his wrist collapsed or if it was more technique.

[theholygideons]

This is my theory on wrist position...

I think you have to look from a bio-mechanical point of view regarding the angle at which the wrist is at. By keeping your wrist low and inevitably limp, there will be less transfer of energy from your shoulders and triceps down to your fingers. Therefore, you will be able to achieve more subtle shading of dynamics because most of the force will be from the fingers. Horowitz would be a major piece of evidence to support this.

If you keep your wrist high and subsequently keep that joint firm, you will gain the benefit of a full transfer of energy from your triceps and shoulders. In fact, now you are striking with your whole arm and will benefit from a louder sound.

However, by keeping your wrist up, you will have a higher tendency of just skimming over the surface of keys, because you are working against the force of gravity, instead of keeping your wrist lower and using gravity to your advantage.

@ karenvcruz, I don't think his wrists were collapsing lol. You can still generate force with low wrist as long as they are tense.

[hardy_practice]

Nicely put Mr Gideons.

[nyiregyhazi]

This is my theory on wrist position...

I think you have to look from a bio-mechanical point of view regarding the angle at which the wrist is at. By 7keeping your wrist low and inevitably limp, there will be less transfer of energy from your shoulders and triceps down to your fingers. Therefore, you will be able to achieve more subtle shading of dynamics because most of the force will be from the fingers. Horowitz would be a major piece of evidence to support this.

If you keep your wrist high and subsequently keep that joint firm, you will gain the benefit of a full transfer of energy from your triceps and shoulders. In fact, now you are striking with your whole arm and will benefit from a louder sound.

However, by keeping your wrist up, you will have a higher tendency of just skimming over the surface of keys, because you are working against the force of gravity, instead of keeping your wrist lower and using gravity to your advantage.

@ karenvcruz, I don't think his wrists were collapsing lol. You can still generate force with low wrist as long as they are tense.

Sorry, but this is a truly horrific simplification . bracing something rigid is NOT the only way to prevent an unwanted direction of movement. Instead of locking in a fixed position, you can be subtly raising it up in a productive movement. This is vastly easier. The idea that a low wrist must be locked is a gross error and totally misses the mark. It needs to be free to move slightly up and forward.

Also I recently discovered a means where the wrist can collapse. Without finger movement, most of the energy is wasted on impact. However, if the fingers lengthen to produce the key movement, the dropping wrist can work. I wouldn't make it the norm (most amateur pianists who try it miss the necessary finger movement and either stiffen or allow them to collapse- which renders it highly ineffective)  but there is a way.

[nyiregyhazi]

ohh thanks for clearing things up
i can now see how arching the wrist allows the fingers to contact the keys without having the wrist drag the hand down with the weight of the arm
would you might explaining why arching the wrist allows the fingers to absorb the impact rather than the wrist?
i have some idea of why, i imagine it's because if the wrist is parallel with the keys while the fingers are perpendicular, then they share no components in the same dimension and thus the force isn't applied to the fingers, and if the wrist is arched high then it can apply a force in the direction of the fingers, which should be parallel to the keys...

but im probably oversimplifying/missing a few things, im interested in the physics though


so it's not a good idea to play loud chords with your wrists low?

it's simply about movement. Banging a fixed joint into abrupt stop is virtually the definition of impact. When something has at least a little room to continue to move elsewhere, rather than stop dead, impact is reduced. It's a little more sophisticated, but all good movements will comply with this rule. It's not one that anything can opt out of. All you can do is refine the ongoing movements to the point where they are no longer so abundantly obvious. However, any time you try to achieve something with a fixed position (rather than a trace of movement in a useful direction) you will create impact.

[hardy_practice]

Sorry, but this is a truly horrific simplification . bracing something rigid is NOT the only way to prevent an unwanted direction of movement. Instead of locking in a fixed position, you can be subtly raising it up in a productive movement. This is vastly easier. The idea that a low wrist must be locked is a gross error and totally misses the mark. It needs to be free to move slightly up and forward.

As opposed to the 'horrifically' complex which you advocate!  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[nyiregyhazi]

As opposed to the 'horrifically' complex which you advocate!  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Or, to translate that into what it really means in practise:

If you're more concerned with avoiding the inconvenience of rethinking a limiting belief system than improving both your level of ease and technical  accomplishment, don't fix it.

If I thought  nothing was broke a few years  back, I wouldn't be getting around La campanella right now. If you are too scared to challenge dogma simply because it's so inconvenient to get your brain around alternative approaches then  by all means settle for the low standard of accomplishment that you've put up on youtube. But please don't spout this drivel about  needing a stiff wrist to transfer sound. You have no right to try to bring others down with you.

[hardy_practice]

What's worked has worked for at least the last 100 years.  You throw out the baby rather than change it's nappy.

[theholygideons]

Who the hell tenses through impact in a punch? Are you serious? ...

I do. otherwise my fingers would break and the opposing force would be just as strong.

[nyiregyhazi]

I do. otherwise my fingers would break and the opposing force would be just as strong.

Why would they break? A tense structure is infinitely more vulnerable. It requires a sense of expansion and lengthening - not of rigidifying or bracing for impact. To consciously stiffen or even try to become more firm at the impact is disaster in a punch. You have to aim right through that point of without an ounce of repression. It's all about movement not about bracing a single joint. When you aim to make movements through something (subtle as some may be) it's more effective than when you generically tense or stiffen muscles with a view towards immobilising something against oncoming force. Likewise if I want to play a very loud note by dropping into my thumb, I need to strive to lengthen it out through the moment of reaching the key (even if it's already at full length). If my goal is to brace or firm it through the descent, the effect is totally different and it merely guarantees a jarring impact. I'd be extremely interested if you could point me towards any martial arts or boxing sources that actively recommend trying to stiffen for impact rather than progressing seamlessly without tensions. If that is normal advice, I don't think they've chosen a good word to describe what really works.

PS. people who are sleeping are more likely to survive a car crash. Being tensed when going into impact is never safer.