Why is virtuoso playing such a focus here?

[hardy_practice]

As a pretty much self-confessed non-virtuoso I couldn't comment.

[dima_76557]

As a pretty much self-confessed non-virtuoso I couldn't comment.

As long as the public you aim at likes what you do, virtually anything goes. "Play it with your nose" as Anton Rubinstein told Josef Hoffman. Most importantly: they have to BELIEVE you as a performer. But as soon as you choose to go "official", you have to live by the rules, standards, and conventions. A solid technical regimen works wonders to be able to do that.

[hardy_practice]

"Play it with your nose" as Anton Rubinstein told Josef Hoffman.

Wasn't he a virtuoso?  Obviously not for me, I'd better stick to John Thompson!

[dima_76557]

Wasn't he a virtuoso?  Obviously not for me, I'd better stick to John Thompson!

He certainly was. Rubinstein simply required from Hoffman to give him a truthful imitation of this or that instrument on the piano, no matter how he would accomplish it. Go figure! How many contemporary artists can do that? How many can give the 17 distinctive emotions in the interjection "Ah!" (the art of playing one single note) Neuhaus talks about in his chapter about technique? That is the stage of true technique!

[gyzzzmo]

Loose from all the 'interpretations' all the people have here on comments from accomplished pianists, what point does it have to be very musical, without having the technique to express it?
And this time try to use your own common sense in replying to this, instead of posting dubious quotes.

[hardy_practice]

What ever happened to standing on the shoulders of giants?

[j_menz]

What ever happened to standing on the shoulders of giants?

Gotterdammerung. (or Einstein)

Loose from all the 'interpretations' all the people have here on comments from accomplished pianists, what point does it have to be very musical, without having the technique to express it?
And this time try to use your own common sense in replying to this, instead of posting dubious quotes.

Indeed. There are two aspects. Having something (worthwhile) to say, and having the ability to say it. Neither is sufficient on its own; both are necessary. I would have thought that neither profound nor arguable.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yeh, well I don't read posts of those whose only interest is in personal attacks.  

I couldn't give a damn about you. I'd rather just see you banned and absent, as you were already supposed to have been. What I care about is the subject that you continually put a smear all over, via cheap spin doctoring and willful ignorance about the truly sorry level of accomplishment that the beliefs (that you so arrogantly assert) have actually brought you to. Words are nothing unless there is at least basic success in the results. Were you a relatively accomplished player being subjected to an unreasonably high level of scrutiny, it would be different. You're not. You're an incompetent fraud.

you wouldn't have a hope in hell of passing the entry requirements for any of Britain's main colleges, nevermind Moscow. That's not an attack. It's a statement of objective fact. They demand fast hanon with total control that you couldn't even muster up in a leisurely grade 3 work. I could bother to write a further verbal argument, but the ignorance of your words is far better revealed to everyone by that single video than by the written word. Given that this poster is nothing but a troll (and not a person who has a single trace of open mindedness towards any beliefs other than those that have crippled him pianistically) I suggest that we try to avoid addressing him directly altogether and simply respond to the ignorant comments by contextualising them with evidence of how his beliefs serve his atrocious standard of tonal control. His video speaks 1000x what even the most thought out counteragument could say.

[nyiregyhazi]

What ever happened to standing on the shoulders of giants?

the closest this might come to the shoulders of any giant is the hope that it just might end up trodden into the soles of their shoes.

[awesom_o]

The only major issue that I have with that video is that it was played on a digital piano instead of a grand. It takes quite a bit of skill to play even a simple minuet in the manner which he played it.  He maintained very good control of the polyphonic texture, and kept his eye on the score the entire time. It would have sounded much more lyrical on a grand piano.

It hurts me to see somebody's musical work made fun of so spitefully. The man expresses a point of view in his playing, why can't we leave it at that?

[nyiregyhazi]

The only major issue that I have with that video is that it was played on a digital piano instead of a grand. It takes quite a bit of skill to play even a simple minuet in the manner which he played it.  He maintained very good control of the polyphonic texture, and kept his eye on the score the entire time. It would have sounded much more lyrical on a grand piano.

It hurts me to see somebody's musical work made fun of so spitefully. The man expresses a point of view in his playing, why can't we leave it at that?

the left hand is played in choppy twos (totally unlike the right) and the thumb note of the primary motif is virtually absent most of the time, it's so uneven. I would not criticise any other forum member on such a basis because other members of his level of attainment are unfailingly humble and have no delusions of expertise.

I recall this poster describing a relative beginner's playing as simply "awful" in another thread. We should not humour or pull any punches for such a habitually rude member who claims the myth that thinking of the results makes it happen, yet who cannot even make his left hand thumb sound as part of the line in foundation level repertoire. When a person has failed who claims mind out over matter happens by magic yet demonstrates that they fail to achieve as they claim, they should rightfully be exposed as a fraud (unless they are sincere and humble).

[awesom_o]

No, I'm serious. He's a nice guy, and his playing isn't that atrocious. You two really need to kiss and make up. There are different ways to play the piano. Embrace diversity!

And please, why don't you post some things yourself in the audition room? I believe a contribution from you is long overdue. A musical contribution, that is.

[nyiregyhazi]

No, I'm serious. He's a nice guy, and his playing isn't that atrocious. You two really need to kiss and make up. There are different ways to play the piano. Embrace diversity!

And please, why don't you post some things yourself in the audition room? I believe a contribution from you is long overdue. A musical contribution, that is.

a man who tells a relative beginner that his playing is awful is a nice guy? Have you heard his op 10 no 1 excerpt - posted in a thread where he insisted that the knew the single correct way to play it? The guy is neither nice nor humble, nor competent enough to be allowed to claim that technique sorts itself out. His hasn't. A person who doesn't care about achieving meaningful self improvement but who insists he knows what is and isn't needed is purely a troll.

I've posted some stuff in there before, btw and have loads on youtube. I may add some new videos when I get a chance to record on the grand at school. I want to do the volodos arrangement of malaguena on a better piano sometime.

[awesom_o]

Whether or not he lives under a bridge from time to time, he certainly isn't pretending to be a virtuoso.

I think we all need to quit arguing about how this and why that... and just get down to business and play!

[nyiregyhazi]

Whether or not he lives under a bridge from time to time, he certainly isn't pretending to be a virtuoso.

I think we all need to quit arguing about how this and why that... and just get down to business and play!

It doesn't matter if he thinks he's a virtuoso. He claimed that for average pianists, the results in sound are all about intent and sound image and not technique. If that's the case, his left hand thumb notes seem to not to be present in his sound image. The fact that it's clearly a technical problem associated to a badly stilted thumb action (and not a musical image that has notes missing from it) makes a complete mockery of everything he has tried to assert. Ironically, given that he started the thread, he is taking views fit merely for virtuosos and thus achieving inadequate results in the musical execution of even a simple piece.

[awesom_o]

I think for average pianists, the results in sound ARE all about intent and sound image.
 

Technique is a stupid word. It makes everyone argue to no end, when there really is nothing to argue about!

[pianoplunker]

I think for average pianists, the results in sound ARE all about intent and sound image.
 

Technique is a stupid word. It makes everyone argue to no end, when there really is nothing to argue about!

AS an average pianist I can tell you I DID intend to create a sound image. Whether that sound image was demonstrative of any technical capability is certainly arguable

[complexpiano]

I think for average pianists, the results in sound ARE all about intent and sound image.
 

Technique is a stupid word. It makes everyone argue to no end, when there really is nothing to argue about!

Agreed, and nyiregyhazi, I don't think criticizing hardy is going to accomplish much, sure, his videos aren't necessarily meant to be watched by advanced players, but I think he's just trying to help others (like, really early beginners) while displaying his improvements. Plus, those videos are 2 years old, 2 years can make quite the difference in any pianist.

[swagmaster420x]

this is getting to the point where people are posting for the purpose of proving someone wrong, and even for the purpose of forcing that person to accept that they are wrong and feel bad for being wrong. that seems childish to me and i don't believe that that's the purpose of this forum. if you're going to try to make someone mad/feel bad, at least do it with finesse, ^nyIREgyNAZI.
anyhow, i'm not even sure hardy_practice's argument is as wrong as it is being made to be. People are saying that technique=musicality, so you need technique for musicality. however, if technique=musicality, then musicality=technique and you would need musicality for technique. These terms are vague, but i still think they connote slightly different things.
To give a personal example, i have found that my perceived capacity for improvement has improved drastically after i've started practicing by playing things very slowly and holding down the pedal so i can better "hear" the music. Now i find there's many more dimensions for me to pracctice, so my practice has become more meaningful. if this is what hardy_practice means by having a "musical intent", then to some extent i agree with what he's saying.

[dima_76557]

No, I'm serious. He's a nice guy, and his playing isn't that atrocious. You two really need to kiss and make up. There are different ways to play the piano. Embrace diversity!

I never attack anyone on this forum, neither personally, nor for the fruits of their toil, but I do have a question of genuine interest. Doesn't it make a difference when that person is a TEACHER, and has an "example function"? Doesn't such an approach to technique and virtuosity in a teacher hold students back from reaching some expected standards? Just asking.

[nyiregyhazi]

Agreed, and nyiregyhazi, I don't think criticizing hardy is going to accomplish much, sure, his videos aren't necessarily meant to be watched by advanced players, but I think he's just trying to help others (like, really early beginners) while displaying his improvements. Plus, those videos are 2 years old, 2 years can make quite the difference in any pianist.

he's not trying to help. He's perpetuating a very unpleasant and negative myth that if someone cannot produce a result, all the blame is to be located in the listening and intentions. There are countless very good musicians out there at amateur level who have the right musical ideas and who could be trained to play beautifully. Instead they get told that their ideas are all wrong and receive a whole lot of destructive criticism, rather than useful guidance on realising their potential. It's scarcely better when someone who does well but knows that they can conceive of better sounds still is only given a patronising pat on the back- as if to say "you do nicely at your level, but you can forget aiming at higher ones".

Two years on or not, that's the not the playing of a man who has earned a right speak with pretend authority about high levels of accomplishment in either virtuoso repertoire, or in technically straightforward repertoire. It's a man without the tools to transfer his intentions into a real life sound, and who might learn something about how to better himself if he wasn't continually trying to portray himself as a man who already has all the answers (rather than asking questions about what is clearly still not working). Humble achievements should be accompanied by humble spirit. Trying to distance his results from the arguments he is making is about on a par with a someone who preaches that humans don't need exercise to stay in good physical shape, yet who struggles to fit through his front door and calls that irrelevant.

[hardy_practice]

I never attack anyone on this forum, neither personally, nor for the fruits of their toil, but I do have a question of genuine interest. Doesn't it make a difference when that person is a TEACHER, and has an "example function"? Doesn't such an approach to technique and virtuosity in a teacher hold students back from reaching some expected standards? Just asking.

None of my students have a wish to be professional musicians - neither do their parents, neither do I!  You see the whole conservatoire thing only from the inside, music was never meant to be a profession - it's an art.  And that's what I teach.  Any one who craves the virtuoso path, good for them!, but not necessarily good for others.  

As for Mr read-my-blog - he's just all quirky personal attacks you learn to ignore after a while.  Certainly has the Doth-protest-too-much-thing nailed!

[j_menz]

music was never meant to be a profession - it's an art.  And that's what I teach.  Any one who craves the virtuoso path, good for them!, but not necessarily good for others. 

Historically inaccurate, I think. 

But how do you teach "art" without also teaching the craft upon which it's expression depends.

As you are probably aware, I'm not of the "cock the pinky at ten degrees, do this with these muscles and that with your elbow" school of thought, but surely "artistic expression" requires an ability to translate it into action.  "The Shadow" in the Elliot poem I posted earlier in this thread.

Otherwise, why bother with the instrument at all? Why not just lie back, relax, and imagine perfection?

[hardy_practice]

Actually there was a German teacher whose idea of technique practice was just that - lying on your back on the floor.  I'm still working on getting him translated.  How many pop/folk singers actually had lessons?  For singing opera yes, you need a lot of training, but even that is by far on the art rather than craft side.   It's not so simple though.  What is art vs craft?  Many have stumbled on that one.  Anybody remember their Collingwood?

[j_menz]

What is art vs craft?  

A false dichotomy. It should be art and craft.

Art without craft is inexpressible, and craft without art is best left unexpressed.

[hardy_practice]

True, you can't have one without the other.  I'm saying with virtuosos mostly the craft overtakes the art - that's fine, but not everyone's (actually hardly anyone's) cup of tea.  I see it a bit like taking vows - admirable, but would you really want to?

[dima_76557]

None of my students have a wish to be professional musicians - neither do their parents, neither do I!

I am talking about some other norms - the "technical standards" of the business, so to speak. Not everybody can and should become a professional writer, for example, but do you agree that when a person on this forum does not meet certain standards in writing, the content of what he/she writes will not be taken as seriously as it could have?

[hardy_practice]

but do you agree that when a person on this forum does not meet certain standards in writing, the content of what he/she writes will not be taken as seriously as it could have?

Nail on the head there!

[dima_76557]

Nail on the head there!

So, if writing is an art in itself and you need to work very hard to get grammar, orthography, punctuation, intonation, etc. right in order to get your message across, what then is the difference with other art forms that have their own "material" requirements?

[hardy_practice]

Most inarticulacy comes through brute feelings not lack of form.  Similar to piano playing - it's what you're wanting to say that shapes the art.

[j_menz]

Similar to piano playing - it's what you're wanting to say that shapes the art.

But so does you ability to say it. I may have much to say, but my level of German (say) means I am not much of a communicator in that language.

[hardy_practice]

That does all go without saying.  But are we talking about - Hey, look at my German! or Experience my thoughts! - which should predominate?

[dima_76557]

Most inarticulacy comes through brute feelings not lack of form.  Similar to piano playing - it's what you're wanting to say that shapes the art.

I think that first of all form (macro and micro) should dictate content, because otherwise it would require too much specific knowledge and experience from the receiving party (the listener) to be able to appreciate what you are doing, unless you give them a talk in advance to explain what you are going to do.

[hardy_practice]

I think that first of all form (macro and micro) should dictate content, because otherwise it would require too much specific knowledge and experience from the receiving party (the listener) to be able to appreciate what you are doing, unless you give them a talk in advance to explain what you are going to do.

You're talking about cake recipe composing - not good.

[j_menz]

That does all go without saying.  But are we talking about - Hey, look at my German! or Experience my thoughts! - which should predominate?

I see, I think, what you mean. But even if my German is wholly devoted to expressing my thoughts (rather than impressing with my grasp of it), it still needs to be up to the job - particularly if what I am trying to express is in any way subtle.

A certain level may well be enough to get around - pass the salt? when's the next train? etc - but to read (and understand) Schiller or Goethe or Hesse?

Sure, some people play piano with a whole lot of technical pyrotechnics in service of nothing but their own egos. And to some extent, the focus on exams and competitions can at time aggravate that - both by actively encouraging it and by forcing people to play things about which they feel nothing and have nothing to say. Buy notwithstanding all that, at some point, one hopes, they will have something to say - and they will need all the skill they can possibly get in order to say it well.

[dima_76557]

You're talking about cake recipe composing - not good.

The works of the ones who made such "cakes" in different flavors and with different ingredients have pretty much withstood the test of time, haven't they? Two of the strongest elements in that approach, besides the originality of the content, is the EXPECTED form that guides the listener through the listening experience, and/or occasionally and DELIBERATELY breaking the rules for surprise effects. Where there is true art, there is structure, and to create structure, you need craft.

[hardy_practice]

Certainly there is the craft of composition and certainly we must all learn German (I ain't kidding) but all I'm saying is let's get the balance right.

[dima_76557]

Certainly there is the craft of composition and certainly we must all learn German (I ain't kidding) but all I'm saying is let's get the balance right.

I certainly agree about the balance thing. In performance, virtuosity is the craft of skillfully managing the structure at micro-level (evenness, quality, and beauty of each and every element), not allowing the macro-level structures to fall apart. Art is if you can add spiritual content ON TOP of it all. This goes for ALL art forms without exception.

[hardy_practice]

Agreed.  Now I'm off to work (or should I say off to 'horrifically' ruin the lives of vulnerable geniuses).

[outin]

So this became a discussion about the worth of some of the posters...as someone who has found a lot of useful information on this forum and some not so useful, I will just be blunt.

I may not believe in reading long and wordy blog posts to learn technique, but I do believe that N is genuinely trying to be helpful and often is. His issue is that he seems to have trouble understanding that you cannot separate an individual from the past and present experiences, which will largely dictate what kind of learning tools will help in specific situations. I see a little bit of this in Awesome as well. But the amount of technical skill and knowledge they have is great anyway.

Hardy is probably also a very nice guy who wants to help, but but does have strong beliefs that things will "take care of themselves". Well, they haven't for me, not in piano, only in other things that seem to come very naturally to me. The only way I could ever express anything artistically is to work on installing the necessary abilities to my hands (actually to the whole system of nerves and muscles from the brain to the fingertips and toes). Without proper tools it's irrelevant what's happening in my head and what kind of music I hear in there.

I really like the way Dima brings these two things together, the idea of music as art and the necessity to get to a certain level of technical expertise to be able to start concentrating on the expression. It's a realistic approach that appeals to me. Sometimes in the heat of a discussion the focus is lost a bit though.

It's better to start practicing now to one day prove my points...

[awesom_o]

I would like to think of musicians as being more personally honorable than a bunch of squabbling children. Keep in mind how we would all behave if we were together in the same room. Don't let the internet change your standards!


It's a very interesting thread, and a very interesting topic. Technique does not magically sort itself out just by working on the sound image. I don't think kbk was trying to imply this. What he was hinting at, albeit somewhat slyly, is the fact that our musical standards really shouldn't be dictated by Lang Lang, Valentina Lisitsa, or Grigory Sokolov. We must develop our own standards!

There is an easy way to determine how much you still have to learn about musicality and technique. Pick a key signature, and play a 12-bar-blues!

If you really have musicality and technique, you should be able to SHRED the blues in any key.

If your level of suckage is too high to do this, you still have much work to do. 

[nyiregyhazi]

It's a very interesting thread, and a very interesting topic. Technique does not magically sort itself out just by working on the sound image. I don't think kbk was trying to imply this. What he was hinting at, albeit somewhat slyly, is the fact that our musical standards really shouldn't be dictated by Lang Lang, Valentina Lisitsa, or Grigory Sokolov. We must develop our own standards!

he didn't merely imply. He explicitly stated that those with musicality will figure out the right technique for results in easy pieces and that who don't figure it out are therefore faulty as musicians. He passed blame straight on to the musicianship of his students. A teacher has no business doing so unless he has been sure to pass on the right tools. The attitude is intensely objectionable because it is inherently and unjustly negative towards those of musical talent who are given lazy and inadequate guidance about linking intent and means. It implies weak consideration of sound on the part of those who have music ideas but without technical control (who often care the most about sound and suffer severe frustration about their inability to control it) and worse still keeps those who chance upon enough technique to play easy pieces nicely limited to only playing easy pieces nicely.

Also, nobody but him is trying to apply the mindset of the master to the amateur. The fact that he tries to label the opposite is beside the point. Thinking that sound image alone will produce results is purely for the masters- which is why his left thumb regularly fails to sound in a primary motif of such a simple piece. First you need to learn to move your thumb with positivity and intent - rather than with a half-arsed little poke from a stiff arm. We should all be applying high expectation of control in music of all levels - if we care in the least about successfully realising a musical intention. Settling for missing notes in the lines of the most straightforward repertoire is exactly what prevents lesser pianists from playing easy pieces to a high musical level. Phrasing doesn't even begin to get off the ground when you can't be sure if your thumb will even sound.

[minona]

I find it strange that many a virtuoso pianist would probably struggle to play a nursery by ear for the purposes of playing musical chairs at a children's party. 

[hardy_practice]

Nice one out.  Maybe you're looking in the wrong place?

Here's a funny thing.  I do Trinity up to grade 8.  For each grade students play 3 pieces, some scales and arps, and 3 short technique exercises.  The interesting thing is none of my students have ever stumbled, got stuck by or even flinched at the exercises.  Each one takes them about a week or two to learn and the word technique is never mentioned.  Mostly it's stuff they've already done or are doing in a piece.  I can only assume other teachers don't see the techniques already in pieces and therefore a supplement is required.  I only really know one technique - and quick while he's not watching   -  it's scratch, drop, flick or caress then flop!

Oh, and here's Harold Bauer: 'As you already know I do not believe in so-called 'piano technique', which must be practised laboriously outside of pieces.'

[nyiregyhazi]

Nice one out.  Maybe you're looking in the wrong place?

Here's a funny thing.  I do Trinity up to grade 8.  For each grade students play 3 pieces, some scales and arps, and 3 short technique exercises.  The interesting thing is none of my students have ever stumbled, got stuck by or even flinched at the exercises.  Each one takes them about a week or two to learn and the word technique is never mentioned.  Mostly it's stuff they've already done or are doing in a piece.  I can only assume other teachers don't see the techniques already in pieces and therefore a supplement is required.  I only really know one technique - and quick while he's not watching   -  it's scratch, drop, flick or caress then flop!

Oh, and here's Harold Bauer: 'As you already know I do not believe in so-called 'piano technique', which must be practised laboriously outside of pieces.'

Given that Bauer didn't have a problem in successfully getting his left hand thumb to produce the intended sound in very basic repertoire, that's fine for him. For a pianist who struggles to even sound his left hand thumb in grade 3 repertoire, never mind achieve precise control of it, quoting him makes a much sense as a golfer who hits half of his drives out of bounds (and who has never broken 30 strokes over par) boasting about how he never practises at either the driving range or the putting green and how he only needs one style of technique.

Once again, we have the problem of trying to take the mindset of the virtuoso while possessing none of the capabilities (and hence limiting the quality of musical results in both easy and difficult repertoire alike). Be pleased with only having single style of technique at your disposal once (or rather "IF") you learn to precisely and consistently control the sounds you make with that, not before.

As long as you indulge in this delusional self-congratulatory hubris, it's going to be necessary to bring it back to quite how far short you have fallen of the musical standards that anyone who cares about their self-development (either in difficult or easy repertoire) should be striving for.

[awesom_o]

Please discontinue this unwarranted vitriol!

Kbk is currently working on the little piece which I composed.

I promise it will sort out whatever technical problems he may have. It is in some respects a technical study in expressive contrapuntal playing.

You might find it an interesting challenge yourself.

I agree with Mr. Bauer on the subject of technique not existing as a finite substance outside of music. But I feel that on some level, music, too, does not exist as a finite substance outside of technique.

[hardy_practice]

Thanks for that.   As Burke said - 'all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.'

[dima_76557]

Thanks for that.   As Burke said - 'all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.'

Although he expressed it rather bluntly, N. is right in that you can't apply a virtuoso's rules and advice to mere mortals at a much lower level of development. This topic is getting a very unpleasant undertone, so in order to avoid trouble, I would appreciate it if everybody here stopped playing out talented people against each other, thanks.

I only really know one technique - [...] -  it's scratch, drop, flick or caress then flop!

I get very strange translations through Google Translate, and I have therefore no idea what you are talking about. The only element Google gets right is the word "caress". Is it a technique that leads away from the kind of virtuoso playing you are agitating against in this topic? Please, elaborate. Thank you.

[hardy_practice]

The Bauer quote is from Harriette brower's Piano Mastery - Talks with Master Pianists and Teachers.  AS she says of her 'talks': '...They were secured with the hope and intention of benefiting the American teacher and student'.  It's a book for teachers and students - not aspiring virtuosos.  The twist this thread has taken of denying any relevance of anything said by famous teachers/performance to posters here is simply bizarre - and counter-productive in the extreme.  These people wanted their voices heard!

On flick, drop then flop try watching this (it's a bit long as Mr Fraser has a gift for the gab like someone else we know).

[dima_76557]

The twist this thread has taken of denying any relevance of anything said by famous teachers/performance to posters here is simply bizarre - and counter-productive in the extreme.  These people wanted their voices heard!

If you want me to rephrase what I said earlier, please, let me know. The advice Bauer gives in your previous quote can only be applied to "teachers and students" (not necessarily virtuosos) who have already acquired a certain minimum level of quality in their playing. The man was the principal piano teacher at the well-known Manhattan School of Music (that's conservatory level!), and was known for his master classes. I wonder if he ever taught beginner- or medium-level students.