Why is virtuoso playing such a focus here?

[hardy_practice]

If you want me to rephrase what I said earlier, please, let me know. The advice Bauer gives in your previous quote can only be applied to "teachers and students" (not necessarily virtuosos) who have already acquired a certain minimum level of quality in their playing. The man was the principal piano teacher at the well-known Manhattan School of Music (that's conservatory level!),

Well, as I happen to have a Performance Diploma from the ABRSM that includes me (sorry other posters, you'll have to stick to the Beano).  But check the book out for yourself https://archive.org/details/pianomasterytalk00brow  It's for everyone.

[dima_76557]

Well, as I happen to have a Performance Diploma from the ABRSM that includes me (sorry other posters).

 
This is completely beside the point of what I am trying to say. Have you forgotten about all the stages you went through BEFORE you got there?

[hardy_practice]

 
This is completely beside the point of what I am trying to say. Have you forgotten about all the stages you went through BEFORE you got there?

I did scales and arpeggios, never any technique.  I can't even remember the word being mentioned.

[dima_76557]

I did scales and arpeggios, never any technique.  I can't even remember the word being mentioned.

What about your 10 years of Grindea training you mentioned in your previous post then? From what I read, she focused on teaching people how to MOVE correctly.
P.S.: Scales and arpeggios are only one way of applying technique you already have, and they are given for different purposes. If your technique is wrong, they will only make matters worse.

[hardy_practice]

P.S.: Scales and arpeggios are only one way of applying technique you already have, and they are given for different purposes. If your technique is wrong, they will only make matters worse.

If your technique is just drop 'n flop it can't be wrong.

[dima_76557]

If your technique is just drop 'n flop it can't be wrong.

Whatever technique it is, it is still technique. It is very unfair towards Carola's genius to deny it as an essential element in good peformance at ANY level. This would mean that what she did, she did in vain.

How to do up notes (application in scales)
How to do down notes (application in scales)

[hardy_practice]

Whatever technique it is, it is still technique. It is very unfair towards Carola's genius to deny it as an essential element in good peformance at ANY level. This would mean that what she did, she did in vain.

Of course it's a technique!  What I'm saying is it's the only technique or, put another way, the root of all techniques.  You see if you truly 'flop' - that is relax the appropriate muscles when they're not required (that's what Stanislavsky's talking about) - each movement starts from anew.  

[dima_76557]

Of course it's a technique!  What I'm saying is it's the only technique or, put another way, the root of all techniques.  You see if you truly 'flop' - that is relax the appropriate muscles when they're not required (that's what Stanislavsky's talking about) - each movement starts from anew.

Now, if we make the link to your Bauer quote, what do you think the function of scales is? Is it perceivable that his advice of not doing scales may not be applicable to just anyone at just any level? Judging from the "up" an "down" clips I posted, Carola Grindea would not agree with Bauer, but then, Bauer didn't have to cure problematic students, did he?

[hardy_practice]

Bauer had nothing against scales, just against playing them evenly.

[dima_76557]

As far as I know Bauer had nothing against scales, just against playing them evenly.

"Evenly" in what sense? Rhytmic control? Quality control? Volume?

[hardy_practice]

"Evenly" in what sense? Rhytmic control? Quality control? Volume?

Rhythmically or dynamically.  Download Brower's book it's the middle of page 100: 'i don't believe a scale should be even either in tone or in rhythm...To my thinking such teaching is not only erroneous it is positively poisonous - yes poisonous!.  '...oh I do advise scale playing surely, for facility in passing the thumb under and hand over is very necessary.  I do not, however desire the even, monotonous scale, but one that is full of variety and life'  My point exactly!  If you play your scales in your pieces it's totally unmusical.

[dima_76557]

I do not, however desire the even, monotonous scale, but one that is full of variety and life' 

I don't know about other countries, but here in Russia, scales are handled like precious musical material. In that sense, I can only agree with Bauer.

[hardy_practice]

I don't know about other countries, but here in Russia, scales are handled like precious musical material. In that sense, I can only agree with Bauer.

But you can surely see the danger in including them in your playing?  The stock acting Stanislavsky's so against?  As he says about his acting : 'I copied naivety, but I was not naive; I walked with quick short steps, but I had no feeling of an inner hurry which produced quick steps and so on.'

[dima_76557]

But you can surely see the danger in including them in your playing?  The stock acting Stanislavsky's so against?.

Stanislavsky may have wanted to say the same thing as Bauer did. Anything that is lifeless is bad for art. I have gone through Liszt's Technical Exercises, and as you may know, he indicates musical values; they're not dry exercises. Some teachers (and Liszt was a great teacher!) simply do not want to abuse Works of Art to get the mechanics of playing right. That's why they give scales, arpeggios and other material, but this does not mean that that material should be drilled in a mindless fashion or in a way that has nothing to do with achieving musical and artistic goals.

[hardy_practice]

If an identical scale turns up in pieces (I know it's very rare), they wouldn't musically mean the same and, therefore, cannot be played the same.  I think we're agreed on that.  But how many know that?  How many know how deeply from inside them that difference must come?

[dima_76557]

If an identical scale turns up in pieces (I know it's very rare), they wouldn't musically mean the same and, therefore, cannot be played the same.  I think we're agreed on that.  But how many know that?  How many know how deeply from inside them that difference must come?

A scale shouldn't just be practised from tonic to tonic. One should be able to play ANY possible scale, starting from ANY possible given note in ANY possible style, conveying ANY possible mood at ANY appropriate tempo. This is the best way to learn the art of improvisation, the craft of sight-reading, and the craft of transposing works of art to virtually any key. It will also prove a VERY efficient guide in determining how a scale should be performed in this or that work of art, without abusing that work of art for half a year or so. It develops intuition in that direction.

[hardy_practice]

A scale shouldn't just be practised from tonic to tonic. One should be able to play ANY possible scale, starting from ANY possible given note in ANY possible style, conveying ANY possible mood at ANY appropriate tempo. This is the best way to learn the art of improvisation, the craft of sight-reading, and the craft of transposing works of art to virtually any key. It will also prove a VERY efficient guide in determining how a scale should be performed in this or that work of art, without abusing that work of art for half a year or so. It develops intuition in that direction.

All well and good, but Bauer is saying there is no ideal scale.  An identical scale will be different in another piece - we must be sensitive to this. 

[outin]

I did scales and arpeggios, never any technique.  I can't even remember the word being mentioned.

I am confused... What is technique to you?
My teacher never gave me any exercises just to "gain technique", but everything we work on we work on both the technical (=how to execute what's in the music so that it sounds good) and musical side (=how to do what I do in a larger musical context). They are so much intertwined that I could not even tell when we are working on technique. We select pieces and etudes that will help me work with the specific problems I have, but she never lets me just hack through them to fix a physical inability (even if I would often want to). The interpretation side is always there as well, although in a much more simple level that what you are discussing.

[dima_76557]

All well and good, but Bauer is saying there is no ideal scale.  An identical scale will be different in another piece - we must be sensitive to this.  

But this does NOT mean that we can simply throw away the principles of the Old Masters. That's what they taught, and I'm quite sure that they did not allow certain works of art to be played/practised before the student had gone through a very rigid preparation in that direction. I wonder who abolished that very healthy approach to music the Old Masters had.

[hardy_practice]

I am confused... What is technique to you?
My teacher never gave me any exercises just to "gain technique", but everything we work on we work on both the technical (=how to execute what's in the music so that it sounds good) and musical side (=how to do what I do in a larger musical context). They are so much intertwined that I could not even tell when we are working on technique. We select pieces and etudes that will help me work with the specific problems I have, but she never lets me just hack through them to fix a physical inability (even if I would often want to). The interpretation side is always there as well, although in a much more simple level that what you are discussing.

My experience is not working on etudes (unless you count Chopin) or exercises.  I know it sounds unbelievable but with the right relaxation technique the technical barriers don't seem to be there.  And I speak as one who didn't have a natural technique.

[hardy_practice]

But this does NOT mean that we can simply throw away the principles of the Old Masters. That's what they taught, and I'm quite sure that they did not allow certain works of art to be played/practised before the student had gone through a very rigid preparation in that direction. I wonder who abolished that very healthy approach to music the Old Masters had.

I'd be surprised if Mozart or Beethoven studied any techniques beyond CPE Bach's book.

[dima_76557]

I'd be surprised if Mozart or Beethoven studied any techniques beyond CPE Bach's book.

We already determined that scales and arpeggios are not ways to acquire technique; they're simply applications of a technique you already have. Moreover, they are what those composers' works consist of. I can't imagine them not training their students in the formulas required to improvise and compose in their idiom and in all keys. Only then were students given works of art, not to practise for ages to be able to play them, but rather as a kind of Master Class - application of what the students were ready for.

[hardy_practice]

If you read CPE's book you'll get a pretty good idea of how the masters learnt.  Haydn says CPE (the book) taught him all he knew about composing.

[dima_76557]

If you read CPE's book you'll get a pretty good idea of how the masters learnt.  Haydn says CPE (the book) taught him all he knew about composing.

They were wise enough, though, to realize that "knowing" and "being able" is not the same. They were all what we would now call "virtuosi", not only in composing, but also in actually playing their instruments (improvising in style and according to the musical rules of their times), so it is a bit unclear to me what you are trying to say in the context of this topic.

[ted]

A scale shouldn't just be practised from tonic to tonic. One should be able to play ANY possible scale, starting from ANY possible given note in ANY possible style, conveying ANY possible mood at ANY appropriate tempo. This is the best way to learn the art of improvisation.

That actually was one of the ways my teacher started me improvising over fifty years ago. It lends itself particularly well to a sort of imitation baroque style, inventing little motifs, twisting them up into fugatos, multiple strands and so on. It embeds the keyboard scale subsets in the mind visually, haptically and aurally while developing finger technique implicitly. Then you can start throwing in syncopation, double notes, two keys at once, the world's your oyster. Inventing within scales in this way is in fact a highly enjoyable lifetime activity. You never reach the end. Well, it has proved so for me anyway.

[outin]

My experience is not working on etudes (unless you count Chopin) or exercises.  I know it sounds unbelievable but with the right relaxation technique the technical barriers don't seem to be there.  And I speak as one who didn't have a natural technique.

I'm afraid you did not answer my question. Etudes are in no way needed to work on technique, we may as well use any piece. If I understand correctly your teachers did not teach you technique in any context? You were allowed to play in any way you wanted to?

I agree that playing some music seemed easier when I just did it without any concerns of technique, but was I happy with the result and do I think I could progress to something advanced working like that? Definitely not.

[dima_76557]

Inventing within scales in this way is in fact a highly enjoyable lifetime activity.

And that's certainly something that shows from your playing, Ted. You are a true virtuoso in what you do, and that is not something to be ashamed of as this thread seems to imply!

[nyiregyhazi]

I did scales and arpeggios, never any technique.  I can't even remember the word being mentioned.

Which is probably why there is minimal control over the sound of your left hand thumb and of various random notes in your 10 no. 1. I'm not going to humour such embarrassing hubris, when the results are objectively worlds apart from the horrific self aggrandisement. Also, if you feel that letters matter more than the results, the LRSM is equivalent to conservatory standard- not the preliminary abrsm diploma which you have. If you want to align yourself to the standards of serious schools, do it for real.

"the technical barriers don't seem to be there"?

Save such staggeringly naive boasts for when your half tempo rendition no longer contains so many missed notes.

[hardy_practice]

I think we all agree with Carlisle (awesome), Ted and CPE Bach - improvising is the way to attain a high level of technique.  I'd better make a start.

outin - my teacher (the only person of many piano encounters I would give that name too) knew all the problems of the repertoire, so we went straight to those - the 10ths in Beet's op 90, Schubert impromptus, that kind of thing.  It would take me some time to dig up what we worked on.  Every now and then I open a book to find her writing/fingering inside and it all comes back.  The only technique I learnt was where to relax - not as simple as many think.  It took me 5 years to relax.

I do have the suspicion that much of the activity described as technique by students is actually ligament/fascia building to accommodate modern concert pianos - which takes me back to that poor little kid on page 1!

[dima_76557]

I do have the suspicion that much of the activity described as technique by students is actually ligament/fascia building to accommodate modern concert pianos - which takes me back to that poor little kid on page 1!

When you first posted that, I couldn't watch. I'm not an expert, of course, but I think that boy should simply sit on a slightly higher bench. Seems to me his upper body is cramped because of the position of his body which is not very ergonomic (he has to lift his arms deliberately to be able to play).

[hardy_practice]

Yes, but what he's playing doesn't require any movement - Mozart laughed at those who so much as raised their arms.  It's the instrument that's at fault.

[dima_76557]

Yes, but what he's playing doesn't require any movement - Mozart laughed at those who so much as raised their arms.  It's the instrument that's at fault.

I think that in this case, Wolfgang Amadeus would not laugh at the boy. He might agree, though, that those who "guide" the boy deserve a kick in their [...] for incompentence. The keyboard is positioned too high for the boy, so, since shortening the piano's legs with the help of a saw is probably not the best option, the simple solution is a higher bench, and not changing the boy's technique.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, but what he's playing doesn't require any movement - Mozart laughed at those who so much as raised their arms.  It's the instrument that's at fault.

Even for something of such minute importance you misuse information out of context? What has Mozart disliking the raising of the arms AWAY from the keyboard got to do with the completely different situation of raising the arms to REACH the keyboard from a low seated position. Does contextual accuracy mean literally nothing to you?

[hardy_practice]

I think that in this case, Wolfgang Amadeus would not laugh at the boy. He might agree, though, that those who "guide" the boy deserve a kick in their [...] for incompentence. The keyboard is positioned too high for the boy, so, since shortening the piano's legs with the help of a saw is probably not the best option, the simple solution is a higher bench, and not changing the boy's technique.

IMHO put him on a clavichord (or even a cheap keyboard), anything where only his fingers were required, and you'd see a remarkable change.

[awesom_o]

I don't think there is ever time to think about 'technique' itself if you are thoroughly involved with music.

[hardy_practice]

the simple solution is a higher bench, and not changing the boy's technique.

Have another look - he's not even sitting on the bench.  A footstool would have helped but that really isn't the big problem here.

[dima_76557]

Have another look - he's not even sitting on the bench.  A footstool would have helped but that really isn't the big problem here.

So, the ones who "guide" should have noticed that because the keyboard is really positioned too high for him to be convenient. "Not the big problem here?" His shoulders go up (and he keeps them up for the whole piece!) to lift the weight of his upper arms (!), while his upper arms should actually be hanging freely alongside his body in a more or less "relaxed" fashion. Too many of that kind of "stunts", and he'll be ready for a visit to the physiotherapist.

He did remarkably well under the circumstances. He seems sure enough of himself to be able to play it backwards, with crossed hands, blindfolded, etc., but too shy to ask for adjustment. Such a major inconvenience is really too much to get quality results. There's nothing wrong with the boy, and there's certainly nothing wrong with the instrument. Even 3-year olds play rather well on such an instrument if they are properly seated.

[hardy_practice]

while his upper arms should actually be hanging freely alongside his body in a more or less "relaxed" fashion.

That I agree 100% with. 

You would seem to be someone who believes heavy action versus light action makes no difference?  Do you not think you could dispense with the whole arm-weight thing if the keys went down with practically no force?  Not to mention less need for ligament/fascia stamina?  I'll repeat, I think lot of what students call 'technique' work is in reality building up this selfsame stamina in order to play a virtuoso's instrument rather than some sweet domestic light keyed instrument. 

[dima_76557]

You would seem to be someone who believes heavy action versus light action makes no difference?  Do you not think you could dispense with the whole arm-weight thing if the keys went down with practically no force?  Not to mention less need for ligament/fascia stamina?

I don't think in terms of "weight" or "force". I think in terms of kinetic energy that flows unblocked through the body and is concentrated in the fingertips. I've seen many very young children play such instruments successfully and with a big sound, without applying excessive physical force. They simply don't work against themselves as much as adults tend to do.
P.S.: By the way, the standard resistance in the key of a concert grand is actually quite convenient. Playing a very light instrument is actually much harder for many in terms of control over the sound.

[awesom_o]

I don't think in terms of "weight" or "force". I think in terms of kinetic energy that flows unblocked through the body and is concentrated in the fingertips. over the sound.

This is good!

[ted]

And that's certainly something that shows from your playing, Ted. You are a true virtuoso in what you do, and that is not something to be ashamed of as this thread seems to imply!

Thanks, that is a fine compliment, especially as I have earned my living working at a factory for over thirty years and have had no musical training for forty-five years ! I can say one thing for certain though, the internal rewards of spontaneous creation at the instrument grow immense with age. How wonderful if this thread were to start even one or two players improvising who had not seriously considered it before.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't think in terms of "weight" or "force". I think in terms of kinetic energy that flows unblocked through the body and is concentrated in the fingertips. I've seen many very young children play such instruments successfully and with a big sound, without applying excessive physical force. They simply don't work against themselves as much as adults tend to do.
P.S.: By the way, the standard resistance in the key of a concert grand is actually quite convenient. Playing a very light instrument is actually much harder for many in terms of control over the sound.

Although, I agree with the spirit, I'd just be a little careful about using the term "kinetic energy". I'd refer to it as a "chi" to differentiate between literal mechanical energy source and something less literal. There are places where the arm can provide the energy, but it's only literal kinetic energy if the arm goes up and down at a rate of once per note. Most of the time, the arm merely stays free and offers support against the reaction forces, rather than literal kinetic energy. Misunderstanding this key difference (by taking this type of expression at face value) was one of the biggest problems in my technique.

[swagmaster420x]

i think your aeolian harp is beautiful hardy practice, but you sound pretty bad at trills, im not sure if it's the clavichord or video quality or if ur purposely trying to speed it up from starting slow (wjhich is a good idea, but imo executed badly) so some1 confirm:

if u worked on your technique more you could play beautifully all the way through and not create an ugly lapse in the music because you haven't mastered an important technique

[awesom_o]

I personally think that invention would sound better with an unmeasured trill as I feel the measured trill sounds a bit 'studentish'. But that is my own personal opinion.

Also just my personal opinion.... but I feel that his comfort with the music, control of tone, and understanding of rubato in the following video distinguish him as a superb musician.

[hardy_practice]

What nice things you guys are saying!  This one of his, though it goes a little off the rails, shows what a clavichord can do:

[awesom_o]

That vibrato is absolutely dope! I NEED to get my hands on one of those things! Do you live in London?

[hardy_practice]

That vibrato is absolutely dope! I NEED to get my hands on one of those things! Do you live in London?

Yes and I know how to get cheaper ones.

[awesom_o]

Cheaper ones? Tell all.

[hardy_practice]

These people have an auction 4 times a year and tend to have at least one Morley clavichord that goes for £300.  Morley themselves sell them for over £4000.  They're not very good (far too quiet) but I've always thought raising the action and replacing the soundboard with spruce (not a laminate as they use) may give you an OK instrument.  Lot 63 is listed as a virginal but that was a typo.  I thought it was quite handsome:

Also, the wrist situation is interesting re: vibrato don't you think?

[awesom_o]

Very interesting indeed! Whenever I play Baroque music on the cello, I use vibrato as a type of expressive ornamentation, rather than the default sound for everything.

Perhaps on one of my visits to the UK you could help me look for something?