How loud does an upright piano get?

[theholygideons]

Does anyone know the peak decibel levels? the reason i'm asking is that i'm gonna get some custom fit ear plugs to protect my hearing yet I don't want them to reduce the noise to the extent that i won't be able to hear myself playing pp or p.

[iansinclair]

I don't have an exact decibel reading, but... I can tell you for sure that my grand -- which is a good bit louder than my upright -- doesn't even come close to where I know ear plugs are recommended by OSHA, never mind required.

Now I'm not Superman when it comes to strength, but -- I can play pretty loud!

A digital piano with earphones is a different matter; there it is entirely possible to crank the volume up to the damaging level.  Ditto any of these portable electronic earphone noisemakers...

[theholygideons]

well, my ears are overly sensitive to loud noise. I was wondering if i should get earplugs that reduce 10db or 15db without compromising my playing.

[iansinclair]

The problem which I have run into with hearing protectors -- ear muffs or ear plugs, either kind -- is that they not only reduce the volume (most by between 15 and 25 db; some less) -- they also reduce the volume very differently at different frequencies; most have (or should have!) very high attenuation at higher frequencies (sometimes upwards of 30 to 40 db) -- anything much over the A an octave and a half above middle C pretty well vanishes -- both as this is where the worst of the noise which they are intended to suppress is found and also in an effort to still keep it possible for speech to take place.

This may not be suitable for piano playing -- I've never tried it.

[timothy42b]

well, my ears are overly sensitive to loud noise. I was wondering if i should get earplugs that reduce 10db or 15db without compromising my playing.

Most of the brass players I know wear earplugs on gigs.

Probably we should in practice too, depending on the volume and the room acoustics.

Hearing loss is unique in the safety field, as it is not statistical.  (Forget to wear the seatbelt and you've got that 1 in 100 chance of getting killed;  hear a loud noise and lose some bit of hearing, 100 out of 100 times.) 

[nyiregyhazi]

Does anyone know the peak decibel levels? the reason i'm asking is that i'm gonna get some custom fit ear plugs to protect my hearing yet I don't want them to reduce the noise to the extent that i won't be able to hear myself playing pp or p.

Seriously? A concert grand in a small room or a loud brass instrument makes sense. But an upright piano? I struggle to believe that most pianos could even be hitting the lowest end of the danger zone when played with even extreme force. There's surely nothing to protect from?

[theholygideons]

why are you so ignorant?
i have tinnitus, i don't want to make it worse by playing something like rach 3 at full volume.

[nyiregyhazi]

why are you so ignorant?
i have tinnitus, i don't want to make it worse by playing something like rach 3 at full volume.

does that reduce the decibel level that can cause damage? What uprights are you playing? I just find it hard to imagine that the decibel levels can be especially high, with a closed upright piano. The casing alone takes away most of the immediacy of the noise. I've never heard of anyone harming their hearing from mere uprights. In orchestras, the players that sit near the brass sections would experience levels vastly beyond what even a grand piano could achieve (hence the common use of earplugs). I've simply never heard of anyone worrying about damage from humble uprights.

[theholygideons]

Well, speaking from experience,
when i was playing for 45 minutes on my upright my ears started ringing a bit.
You gotta understand that I didn't initially damage my ears just from playing piano, however i do not want to aggravate it further.

[outin]

The higher uprights can be quite loud, especially in the lower section. There's also the difference on the projection of the sound. Unlike a grand the sound tends to direct straight to the players ears. If the room acoustics and the tone of the piano are bad it can be quite inbearable to play anything forte. My piano sounds much louder to me than either of my teacher's grands when I play in a normal way.

[charliefreak]

I'm not sure about uprights, but concert grands can (reportedly) reach 110 decibels at the position of the person playing it - in a small room.  A large upright is not nearly as loud, but even if it's only half the volume of a grand, it could still reach 100+ dB.

OSHA allows for 85 dB for 8 hours.  Every 3 dB over that, the time is cut in half. So:

88 dB - 4 hours
91 dB - 2 hours
94 dB - 1 hour
97 dB - 30 mins
100 dB - 15 mins
103 dB - 7.5 mins

So I'd guess it's possible to damage your hearing with an upright piano, depending on your endurance to play at constant fortissimo or above for relatively long periods?  To me, it seems unlikely, since the dynamics in most music doesn't stay at ff for long periods at a stretch.  Then again, you might find yourself deliberately practising a ff passage for a long period of time and be in the danger zone?

My practice room is well treated with acoustic panels and such, as I hate small-room acoustics and prefer it somewhat dead.  But I have a friend whose upright is in an small untreated room with hardwood floors and it's nearly unbearable at ff.  Definitely causes a *cringe* reaction in me.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not sure about uprights, but concert grands can (reportedly) reach 110 decibels at the position of the person playing it - in a small room.  A large upright is not nearly as loud, but even if it's only half the volume of a grand, it could still reach 100+ dB.

OSHA allows for 85 dB for 8 hours.  Every 3 dB over that, the time is cut in half. So:

88 dB - 4 hours
91 dB - 2 hours
94 dB - 1 hour
97 dB - 30 mins
100 dB - 15 mins
103 dB - 7.5 mins

So I'd guess it's possible to damage your hearing with an upright piano, depending on your endurance to play at constant fortissimo or above for relatively long periods?  To me, it seems unlikely, since the dynamics in most music doesn't stay at ff for long periods at a stretch.  Then again, you might find yourself deliberately practising a ff passage for a long period of time and be in the danger zone?

My practice room is well treated with acoustic panels and such, as I hate small-room acoustics and prefer it somewhat dead.  But I have a friend whose upright is in an small untreated room with hardwood floors and it's nearly unbearable at ff.  Definitely causes a *cringe* reaction in me.

Half the volume of 110 decibels is 100 decibels? Am I missing something? Are decibels not a smoothly sliding scale then?

[j_menz]

Half the volume of 110 decibels is 100 decibels? Am I missing something? Are decibels not a smoothly sliding scale then?

It's a logarithmic scale.  Basically the power factor of the sound doubles about every 3 dB.  100 dB to 110 dB is actually about a factor of 10 increase

You can  check out the maths here.

[hfmadopter]

just pick up an inexpensive set of musicians earplugs. They have little tubes in them that you can still hear through but the damaging effect is supposedly drastically lowered. I have tinnitus as well and a significant hearing loss. I'm thinking of these plugs for my digital and maybe even for use with my grand when the top is fully up. They are available at music shops and even at Amazon.

People don't have to understand your situation, you should do what you feel is best for you. However I sympathize with it because I know how sharp noises act on me, it's startling, it can even hurt and causes the wringing to increase for at least overnight if not longer ! Drop a crescent wrench on a cement floor and that noise makes me jump and cringe. That wasn't the case when I was younger but years of industrial damage ( as well as self induced I'm sure) has taken it's toll. Those without this problem will not understand it and that's fine, so be it.

[charliefreak]

Yea, it depends on the frequency, as human hearing is more sensitive at certain frequencies (2-5 kHz).  A 3 dB increase is double the amplitude (the energy of the wave), but we don't perceive it exactly that way.  Usually around 6-10 dB is perceived by our ears as a doubling of the loudness.

[theholygideons]

just pick up an inexpensive set of musicians earplugs. They have little tubes in them that you can still hear through but the damaging effect is supposedly drastically lowered. I have tinnitus as well and a significant hearing loss. I'm thinking of these plugs for my digital and maybe even for use with my grand when the top is fully up. They are available at music shops and even at Amazon.

Actually, i was planning to buy some rather not cheap custom fitted musician earplugs with level attenuation across the frequencies so everything doesn't sound so damn muffled, in which case i was wondering whether to get a 12 dB reduction or whether 16dB reduction in sound is too much.