teach me how to tackle this passage

[lorcar]

this is the fourth bar of the piece I am working on.
I already play the whole piece, but trying to finalize it I am working on small pieces at time.
Hanging around here I learned that the best method is -instead of repeating the entire piece- repeat and study just few pieces of it, the smaller the better.
I tried to to this today and I believe that after 30 mins I am still there, or even worse.
When I play the bar with RH, LH, or HT slow, there is no problem.
WHen I play HT at right speed or a bit faster, I f*** it up.  My explanation is fingering. Hands do the same thing, but with different fingers and I am not able to keep the right independence.
I wish I took a video, just to understand how to -rather to solve this specific problem- study with the right method.



My fingering: right hand goes 31-42-31-21 (instead of the written 53)
left hand I do 24-13-24-35

I think at this point I should change this fingering because I dont go anywhere with this. What is the right approach?
thanks in advance

[sucom]

Hi
I would keep trying with the suggested fingering, to be honest, even if you're finding it tricky.  It might take a little extra time but by deliberately 'placing' your fingers in the correct place, even if you have to pause for a moment to position them, you will achieve the goal.

Patience is a virtue.  I would say, 'if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try, try, try, try, try (ad infinitum) again'.  You will be very pleased with the feeling when you finally succeed, believe me!

[lorcar]

Sucom

i guess my frustration about the method is about this endless repetition, you call it "try" or "patience" but since i started playing (a year ago) I became to notice that sooner or later I can play any piece: just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat. I feel it monkey and somehow dull. Then I started reading about method and it seems the best is doing the same thing, BUT on very small pieces (like 1 or 2 bars) and for 10 minute at most.

going to your reply: i am using the suggested fingering indeed, am I not?

[iansinclair]

A couple of thoughts... first, on this particular measure... I really don't think I would have used the suggested fingering at all, but that may be that I have an organ/harpsichord background, not a piano background.  I would use -- right hand now -- 1 3, 2 4, 3 5, 2 4, 1 3 then -- if I wanted legato into the A major chord, a flash of pedal for the break.  But that's me, and I often find that I don't use suggested fingerings!

Second, on practicing.  I would always -- always -- practice a phrase, not a measure.  There is a terrific risk in practicing just a measure that the phrase, carrying over several measures, will get choppy.  And I wouldn't bash at it unduly.  A few repetitions -- up to a dozen or so maximum -- in a single practice session is about all that the brain can manage.  Or at least that my brain can manage!  Then go do something else for awhile, and then -- if you like -- come back to it.

[dima_76557]

@ lorcar

The given fingering reveals the musical structure, and I certainly wouldn't change it to your fingering. This is not meant to be legato (tied) throughout. Think of this not as you playing the piano, but as a string quartet where all 4 players change bow strokes when you have to change position. In this way, the psychological difficulty of you changing position becomes musically meaningful. I think it would make sense for you to practise it like this:

RH: 4-2, 1, 3-5 //STOP-REPEAT// 1-3, 2-4, 1-3 //STOP-REPEAT// 3-5, 1-2-4
LH: ........., 5-3// STOP-REPEAT// 4-2, 3-1, 4-2// STOP-REPEAT// 1-3, 2-5

As soon as you can group like that, "glue" the groups together.

[sucom]

Hi Lorcar
When I suggested persevering until you can do it, I didn't have in mind to repeat the same bar over and over a multitude of times during one single practice session and expect the polished skill to magically appear within that time!  It wouldn't matter if you sat there all day long playing the same passage, it would still not develop immediately if you are finding it difficult. It might take days or weeks but you would get it eventually by persevering.

No, what I had in mind was to repeat it several times every day while practising the whole piece because this would allow you to develop the technique over a period of time.  What I was suggesting was to give yourself time to acquire the skill.  I don't believe in mindless repetition but I do believe in perseverance over a period of time.  If you 'consciously' ensure you have the fingering as written when you practise, you will 'eventually' develop this new skill.  I agree with another poster who suggested learning small groups and then gluing them together.

I believe it is worth persevering at a technique over a period of time because this works.  As you say, you have found that a piece come eventually, and I agree with this.  It does if you persevere and in this case, by using 53 to move into the final chord of your example, you would be expanding your ability and skill.

The whole point of this practice is to develop and acquire freedom by training your fingers to do exactly what 'YOU' want them to do.  This means that you will learn more skills which allow you to express the music content of the piece in the most efficient way.  Some things are more tricky than others but with patience and perseverance over a period of time, you do get there. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you that mindless repetition is boring and dull.  However, if every time you reach that particular bar in your daily practice, you focus on the fingering as written 'and' the musical expression achieved through the use of that particular fingering, you will come out of the experience better equipped for future playing. 

If you feel frustration that you cannot yet achieve this fingering, it is possibly because you are expecting yourself to achieve a perfect result in too short a time.  Practising carefully and slowly on difficult passages every day over a period of time will bring the acquired technique.  As every day passes, you will become a little more fluent. 

[lorcar]

 
I wholeheartedly agree with you that mindless repetition is boring and dull.  However, if every time you reach that particular bar in your daily practice, you focus on the fingering

If you feel frustration that you cannot yet achieve this fingering, it is possibly because you are expecting yourself to achieve a perfect result in too short a time. 

Practising carefully and slowly on difficult passages every day over a period of time will bring the acquired technique. 

Thanks a lot
I spoke with my teacher about this bar. She said that my intuition to keep the hands still and just move the fingers was correct, and that in order to get it right at right speed she said to repeat it "3 million of times".
I am getting very frustrated as you wrote, but not much because I dont get the results in short time, but simply because the solution of everything seems to be always the same:
R
E
P
E
T
I
T
I
O
N
It destroys all the joy of music. After a while, when I get familiar with a bar or phrase, my mind starts wandering around, while the fingers keep trying to study.
Last wknd in order to keep my attention on a bar I had to put the stereo on with loud music, in order to force myself to concentrate more. It worked a bit!
I guess my problem is that probably I never saw how a piece should be studied and tackled. I am not able to understand which is the right amount of time to devote to a new piece, understanding how long (how many hours of practice) one should spend.

[cabbynum]

What key is this in?

[lorcar]

What key is this in?

really, it doesnt matter, because every new piece has a bar which gives me trouble
Now I am studying the Heller Etudes #47, 1, different than one in the pic above.
I'd say not difficult, but there is a bar where my fingers are always landing on the wrong spot. Is a bar where LH goes in one direction and RH in another, but very easy stuff, and I dont even understand how it can take so long. We are talking about micromovements of the hands and fingers and I cant get it nailed.
Also I noticed that writing down my fingering creates another level of trouble.
Let's say for example that I write down 1 and 4.
The right approach would read "you must hit the second key with the 4"
While my silly mind does this "the second key is at the same distance from the first key like F from C"
how silly???!??!?? And this causes i land on the wrong key, right before or right after
that's the reason I am starting to avoid writing down the fingering

[cabbynum]

It matters a little bit, but you really just need to use the fingering given. I tried it out on my piano at home, no problem. Tiny bit awkward, but That's thirds for yuh!
Best of luck!

[outin]

I am getting very frustrated as you wrote, but not much because I dont get the results in short time, but simply because the solution of everything seems to be always the same:
R
E
P
E
T
I
T
I
O
N

This does not seem like a very good approach to me. My teacher has never told me just to repeat something I have trouble with. She would go over it with me so we can figure out why I am having trouble and then I will practice it slowly first in small doses over a few days. Usually more than 3 similar repetitions are useless, because my mind starts to wander or unvoluntarily start to improvise something a bit different. If I don't lose my patience and decide to drop the thing it has always worked and usually much faster than I would have thought when I started

In general endless in tempo repetitions do not work for me (I have tried that too), I can repeat something more than a 100 times and still not really learn it if my mind is not connected to what I am doing and if there's nothing to associate it with.

For me frustration and impatience has always been the biggest obstacle in learning...

[dima_76557]

Also I noticed that writing down my fingering creates another level of trouble.
Let's say for example that I write down 1 and 4.
The right approach would read "you must hit the second key with the 4"
While my silly mind does this "the second key is at the same distance from the first key like F from C"
how silly???!??!?? And this causes i land on the wrong key, right before or right after
that's the reason I am starting to avoid writing down the fingering

You seem to be thinking in terms of separate notes that need to played one after the other and are probably moving your hand while you should not be doing this as soon as you are in position. If your fingering is 1 and 4, then what *could* go wrong is 1 (the start of a new position), but certainly not 4 because you are already in position.
P.S.: Your teacher's advice to repeat something "3 million times" is among the most unhealthy a student can get. The more you repeat, the more your brain will distract itself from attention to what you should actually be doing in order to get the music "into your fingers".

[lorcar]

  If your fingering is 1 and 4, then what *could* go wrong is 1 (the start of a new position), but certainly not 4 because you are already in position.

well not necessarily agree, it depends where you are coming from and where you need to be. The fact that you need to hit second key with 4, it doesnt imply that your hand is already in position when you hit the previous key with 1.

so had lesson last night, and my teacher told me the same think over and over: I got too fast and I should study and repeat MORE S L O W S L O W S L O W S L O W slower than i might ever think.

[brogers70]

Lorcar,

I think you are right to be concerned about endless repetition. If you don't have the correct fingering and movement, all repetition does is burn the wrong way of playing it into your brain. (And it's really boring).

The first thing to ask is where exactly do you fall apart when you try to play it HT up to speed? I would suggest using the fingering as written in the score, since it makes it possible to get to the first chord in the next measure more easily.

My (maybe not very helpful) advice would be to identify the exact motion that is causing problems for you - it's a transition from one note to the next, somewhere in there. Then ask your teacher to show you the right movement. It's a bit worrying that your teacher's advice seems to be just to keep banging away at it. Usually, with this kind of problem, if you find the correct motion it gets significantly easier very quickly, in minutes, really. You may still need to work up to speed, but once you find the right motion you should feel an almost immediate improvement.

[timothy42b]

You worked on it for 30 minutes and didn't get it.

Bernhard always said 20 is the maximum, if you don't get it in 20 you chose too big a segment to work on.

You also said you can do it slow but it breaks down at speed.  Red flag alert!

Speed shows incorrect motion that you can sometimes get away with at slow tempos.  If you do the slow tempo long enough you can build a "speed wall" that's hard to get past because the incorrect motion gets ingrained.

I suggest playing HT above tempo for just two notes at a time.  Find the hardest transition and repeat that one until it is easy.

Also, thirds are not really done with the hand still and the fingers moving.  There is a wrist motion involved, and usually two notes played on one hand drop.  Hard to describe, but if a teacher showed you just once the light would dawn.   

[lostinidlewonder]

this is the fourth bar of the piece I am working on.
I already play the whole piece, but trying to finalize it I am working on small pieces at time.
Hanging around here I learned that the best method is -instead of repeating the entire piece- repeat and study just few pieces of it, the smaller the better.
I tried to to this today and I believe that after 30 mins I am still there, or even worse.
When I play the bar with RH, LH, or HT slow, there is no problem.
WHen I play HT at right speed or a bit faster, I f*** it up.  My explanation is fingering. Hands do the same thing, but with different fingers and I am not able to keep the right independence.
I wish I took a video, just to understand how to -rather to solve this specific problem- study with the right method.



My fingering: right hand goes 31-42-31-21 (instead of the written 53)
left hand I do 24-13-24-35

I think at this point I should change this fingering because I dont go anywhere with this. What is the right approach?
thanks in advance

Play the positions, there are three in the RH groups if you follow the written fingerings:
(24 1 24) (13 24 13) (53 124)

The LH has 2 groups
(53 42 31 42)  (31 52)

Notice that the LH doesn't move position for the first 2 groups of the RH, and Both hands move simultaneously when moving to the RH 3rd group.

Play the first 2 groups at tempo and if you require use a controlled pause before entering the RH third group to appreciate both hands simultaneously moving to a new position.

[cabbynum]

I get the feeling they dont actually want to learn this passage. We have all given great tips and ideas and the Op doesnt really reply.

to the OP
 what is the piece and whats the key?
what other pieces have you learned?
how long have you been playing?

[alpacinator1]

Please forgive my ignorance here, but I must be missing something. Why not just play 13-24-35 on the right hand and 35-24-13 on the left?

[timothy42b]

You could play them ALL 1-3, if it's slow enough. 

[lorcar]

hi everyone

returned to this piece again.
Studied many times with the metronome, and it's ok (i think...)
going up to speed thought I think I figured out where I have problem with this passage.

the problem is in LEFT as soon as it starts the DESCENDING phase. WHen I go from (13) to (24) the 3 falls on its F natural key!!!  It seems I have problem in controlling it, but at least now I now that THIS is my problem.
Should I try with a different fingering (although this one looks ok because the hand doesnt move)? or should I try to correct my problem?
thanks in advance

[cabbynum]

I'd stick with that fingering just slow it down till you don't miss a note.
When I have a passage that I miss constantly I go 1 note before and play into it so it's perfect. Then two notes before. Then 3 notes before and so on. Until I have the phrase before and the phrase that contains the tricky passage. I try not to do any of it too much because it becomes frustrating. There is a passage in the appassionata that gets me nearly everytime and doing that really helped . It's still not perfect but I get it almost everytime now.

[lorcar]

I get the feeling they dont actually want to learn this passage. We have all given great tips and ideas and the Op doesnt really reply.

to the OP
 what is the piece and whats the key?
what other pieces have you learned?
how long have you been playing?

cabby, sorry I had missed that
this is the piece   

or this

working on this and the Heller etudes op 47
and Bach Anna Magdalena

Started to play again 1 year ago after 25+ years interruption

[lorcar]

I'd stick with that fingering just slow it down till you don't miss a note.
When I have a passage that I miss constantly I go 1 note before and play into it so it's perfect. Then two notes before. Then 3 notes before and so on. Until I have the phrase before and the phrase that contains the tricky passage. I try not to do any of it too much because it becomes frustrating. There is a passage in the appassionata that gets me nearly everytime and doing that really helped . It's still not perfect but I get it almost everytime now.

thanks

what i noticed today is that it gets a bit better if I try not to play through the fingers, but slightly moving the forearm/hand. If I try with fingers, somehow they become stiffer, and the middle finger (3)  cant avoid going on F....well it seems like fingers have their own life...

[lorcar]

@ lorcar

 
LH: ........., 5-3// STOP-REPEAT// 4-2, 3-1, 4-2// STOP-REPEAT// 1-3, 2-5

As soon as you can group like that, "glue" the groups together.

this is what I try to do, but going in a smooth way from 3-1 to 4-2 is the "mission impossible", at least now...

[outin]

For me playing RH legato 5-3, 4-2 smoothly without all kinds of funny twists or unwanted accents seemed quite impossible due to the shape of my hand and the length difference of my fingers. Then my teacher told me I could release the second voice early (the 3rd finger) and that worked. It doesn't really matter as long as one can maintain the legato in the melody. So maybe you could experiment with the timing of the fingers.