How many of you think there's nothing like the sound of a REAL piano(no digital)

[jbmajor]

Are there keyboards out there that could say, duplicate the sound of a Steinway?  To me, I just don't think anything digital can duplicate the sound of real strings, the way they resonate, the pedal, the dynamics, etc. 

Anyone agree?

[donjuan]

I agree entirely.  Feeling the rumble in the keybed caused by resonance in the strings and soundboard is like nothing else in the world.  It's like having a whole orchestra in front of you!  A lion's growl, trickling water fountains, and a thunderstorm all at your fingertips!  Digitals are great for when you have fussy neighbours or sleeping family members, but there is something unfulfilling about listening to prerecorded sounds. 
donjuan 

[jr11]

Are there keyboards out there that could say, duplicate the sound of a Steinway?  To me, I just don't think anything digital can duplicate the sound of real strings, the way they resonate, the pedal, the dynamics, etc. 

Anyone agree?

You are undeniably correct. A digital keyboard is merely a PC in a different-style box, with a piano keyboard instead of a qwerty keyboard. Depressing a key sends a signal to the computer to dispatch data through a processor and convert it to an audible signal which can be heard through a speaker. At least an electric guitar makes use of a vibrating string, which to my mind, makes it more of an actual musical instrument than a digital keyboard.

That said, there are some very convincing piano sounds which may be emulated by a digital. But let's examine this further. The best piano sounds are sampled (recorded) from a high quality piano on a note-for-note basis. But they are still recordings, which must be electronically amplified. Thus, even the most meticulously recorded sounds are still limited by the quality of the electronic output components.

A piano is a percussion instrument, in which strings are struck by a hammer and amplified by the resonance of a soundboard. Even the smallest pianos have a soundboard vastly larger than the surface area of the largest (commonly available) speaker cones. Of course, the engineering and construction of a piano plays a huge part in the quality of the sound emitted and the control that the pianist has through the keys, pedals and action.

There are some big advantages to digitals (volume control, size & weight, variety of sounds and recording capabilities), but any way you look at it, it is still an imitation of a piano. I have a fine grand piano and a very good digital, and would hate to do without either... they both have their place 

[xvimbi]

Are there keyboards out there that could say, duplicate the sound of a Steinway?  To me, I just don't think anything digital can duplicate the sound of real strings, the way they resonate, the pedal, the dynamics, etc. 

Anyone agree?

Is there a mechanical bird out there that can duplicate the graceful soaring of a Bald Eagle? Is there  any gadget that can faithfully reproduce the lovely singing of a nightingale?

Sorry to phrase it in a sarcastic way, but an acoustic piano is an acoustic piano, and a digital is a digital! Apples and oranges.

[Fastzuernst]

Bien sûr!

[Floristan]

Sorry to phrase it in a sarcastic way, but an acoustic piano is an acoustic piano, and a digital is a digital! Apples and oranges.

Digitals are great for when you have fussy neighbours or sleeping family members....

I use a Yahama P120 for a lot of my practice because I live in an apartment where neighbors and family members are a big concern.  The sound is a sampled C7, so it's quite good and realistic, especially when heard through good headphones.  When I bought this keyboard, I hadn't tried a digital in 20 years, so was very surprised by how good the sound and touch were.  Also, my piano is currently in the shop having its action totally rebuilt, so I needed an alternative for the 8-12 weeks it will take for the rebuild.

But yes, it's apples and oranges.  Yahama does an incredible job of imitating the sound, touch, responsiveness, and even the pedal action (you can half-pedal with the P120) -- but ultimately it is imitation and it feels like imitation.  There is a lack of physical connection with the instrument that is always present with an acoustic piano.  And it's not just one thing:

1. The sound is coming into your ears from the wrong place (namely headphones).  Depending on what room ambience setting you use, it can sound like you are in your living room, a small hall, a large hall, or on a large stage -- but there's a disconnect between this illusion and the reality.  It's like the difference between listening to a recording and a live performance.

2. There is no sense of the vibration of the strings coming through the keyboard and into your hands or of the bass resonating in your chest.  This physical connection to sound production is very important to me.

3. While Yamaha has done an incredible job of imitating response, it is ultimately overly sensitive and finicky in a way that a piano is not.  It's possible to get a full range of dynamics, but the motion of the fingers/hands/arm/shoulder/back needed to produce that tone is different on a digital keyboard and a piano -- this despite the fact that Yamaha has weighted the keys to simulate the feel of heavier in the bass, lighter in the treble.  When I move from the digital to an acoustic, I have to rethink tone production.  Acoustic pianos require one to "dig out" or "scoop out" or "coax out" the tone (everyone's metaphor for this phenomenon is different), which connects the body directly to tone production.  No such connection exists with the digital keyboard, just the illusion of a connection.

4. Acoustic piano keys bottom out on felt punchings, so at the bottom of the keystroke there is a shock absorber plus a little play in the key.  Digital keyboards have no shock absorber, so the keys bottom out hard, sending a tiny shock up the arm with every keystroke, leading to fatigue far sooner than on an acoustic.  Also that play at the bottom of the keystroke on an acoustic give me a feeling of depth and I think also aids in repetition.  It's a little hard to explain the feeling....

5.  Pedals.  Yahama has done an amazing job with the sustaining pedal, allowing for very realistic-sounding half-pedaling, which is vital for almost everything I play.  The una corde pedal is a joke, however.  You can adjust the degree of "softness," but you cannot vary the application of it -- it's either on or off.  Plus it doesn't alter the tone the way true una corde does -- there's no sense of an open string that's resonating in sympathy when the other two strings are struck.  Plus, with true una corde, you can shift the hammers slightly to the right so they partially strike the third string or, on pianos that have fairly defined grooves in the hammers, you can shift so that the hammers are striking on the ridges rather than in the grooves, which gives an almost harpsichord sound.  So the tonal effects that the una corde pedal allows are missing with a digital.

On the positive side, the digital is good for just learning notes and doing repetitive passage work -- both of which are extraordinarily annoying for everyone in the environment other than the pianist -- and for getting a gross sense for tone production.  Plus you can practice at 3:00 a.m. if you want!  But I CAN'T WAIT[/b] to get my real piano back!  

[jbmajor]

Some great posts, here, interesting to hear these perspectives.

[Bob]

By the time you get a digital piano that sounds pretty close to an acoustic, you're talking tens of thousands of dollars -- to get the kind that have their own soundboard and are just as big as a grand.

For that money, and since you could apparently have a piano that makes plenty of sound without worrying about the neighbors, why not just buy a real acoustic?

[nipon gaki]

ok but what if you have only a $1500. budget. should you buy a 30+ year old spinet which doesnt play in tune, has sticky keys and a schreechingly bright horrid sound. or a digital piano that has the same weight and responce of grand piano...ok the sound is not a steinway but it never has to be tuned you can wear headphones move it...and stay under your $1500. budget

[jr11]

ok but what if you have only a $1500. budget. should you buy a 30+ year old spinet which doesnt play in tune, has sticky keys and a schreechingly bright horrid sound. or a digital piano that has the same weight and responce of grand piano...ok the sound is not a steinway but it never has to be tuned you can wear headphones move it...and stay under your $1500. budget

Hi Nipon;  obviously don't buy junk, or something you know you won't be happy with. For your budget, there are better used pianos out there, at least in my region. Shop around a little. Honestly, there are few new digitals that are worthy for that price either. If you play yourself, try out a lot of both. If not, an experienced sales person, that you feel is trustworthy, can be of great assistance.

[donjuan]

ok but what if you have only a $1500. budget. should you buy a 30+ year old spinet which doesnt play in tune, has sticky keys and a schreechingly bright horrid sound. or a digital piano that has the same weight and responce of grand piano...ok the sound is not a steinway but it never has to be tuned you can wear headphones move it...and stay under your $1500. budget

Hi Nipon;  obviously don't buy junk, or something you know you won't be happy with. For your budget, there are better used pianos out there, at least in my region. Shop around a little. Honestly, there are few new digitals that are worthy for that price either. If you play yourself, try out a lot of both. If not, an experienced sales person, that you feel is trustworthy, can be of great assistance.

"trustworthy salesperson" is kind of an oxymoron.. It takes a special salesperson to actually care about you and your needs.  Most are out to take your money and use shrewd sales tactics to make you believe anything they say.  A good time to run out the door is when they put time limits on offers.  Eg. "Ok, heres what I am going to do for you, since I think you need this piano, and you deserve this piano!  Im gonna make this offer good until closing time today."

Do you see the way they stroke your ego to convince you the piano is only at a special price for today and you need to buy it RIGHT NOW to get it?!  Close your ears to bullshit like this and walk right out the door!

Well, Im not sure about your experiences with salespeople, but all I am saying is be careful.
donjuan

[nipon gaki]

donjuan,

you sound pretty bitter about salesman

[janice]

I agree entirely.  Feeling the rumble in the keybed caused by resonance in the strings and soundboard is like nothing else in the world.  It's like having a whole orchestra in front of you!  A lion's growl, trickling water fountains, and a thunderstorm all at your fingertips!  Digitals are great for when you have fussy neighbours or sleeping family members, but there is something unfulfilling about listening to prerecorded sounds. 
donjuan 

VERY well said, donjuan!!  There is nothing like that rumble!!  And you were exactly right about the plus side of digitals.  IMO, those are the only positive things about keyboards!!

[Spatula]

donjuan,

you sound pretty bitter about salesman

Um... he got into a "catastrophe" with the vacuum salesman 2 weeks ago (winks to Don Juan)

[Spatula]

I started out on a keyboard.  Lovely little things, and when I say lovely, I mean about horrid.  And those makeshift Clavinovas or whatever they're called, eeck! Dangerous!

Yeah there's a reason why a keyboard is $1000 and a Steinway is $70000.

I feel somewhat sorry for the piano builders cause it is a hell of a job to correctly weigh and callibrate all the keys properly for the best response, even if its (ahem) an inferior brand. 

[donjuan]

ok but what if you have only a $1500. budget. should you buy a 30+ year old spinet which doesnt play in tune, has sticky keys and a schreechingly bright horrid sound. or a digital piano that has the same weight and responce of grand piano

If you are willing to pay $1500 for a craptacular old spinet, they must have done somooooome brilliant salesjob on you to make you think it's worth it.

haha if you find a digital that has the "same weight and response as a grand piano" for $1500, give me a call so I can faint in disbelief.  I payed $2000 canadian for a digital that vaguely resembles the touch of an upright with really poor capacity for repeated notes. 

donjuan,

you sound pretty bitter about salesman

well, the guy who owns the Yamaha dealership in my city has a monopoly here and is an italian mafia guy. (man, i hope he doesnt see this forum and know Im talking about him or I'm "gonna get whacked")  And all his cronies are piano salesmen with black suits and slicked back haircuts.  They say stuff like, "im gonna make ya en offa ya cant refuse" and "fooget about it!"  So yeah, influenced by my experiences with this mafia piano lord, I would have to say Im a little bitter about salesmen, to say the least.

Um... he got into a "catastrophe" with the vacuum salesman 2 weeks ago (winks to Don Juan)

uummmmm

I really dont get that spatula...Is it some comment about devices to treat Erectile Dysfunction?!  If so, F&%K you!! It's a serious problem!! haha j/k

really man, what are you on about?
(fails to wink back)
donjuan

[Spatula]

uummmmm

I really dont get that spatula...Is it some comment about devices to treat Erectile Dysfunction?!  If so, F&%K you!! It's a serious problem!! haha j/k

really man, what are you on about?
(fails to wink back)
donjuan

 

No it's an inside "joke" that failed to make things funny.  Don't you get vacuum sales people knocking at your door?  How about those pesky Jevhovah's Watchers or Witnesses that say "Its a special today, 2 converts for the price of 1..c'mon what you got to lose?"...

Um ,yeah.  I could see you like mow down the salesman or witnesses with your piano on wheels...

and remember 

Erectile Dysfunction

I did it MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! 

[Spatula]

Sorry I had a suky day today so here is my rant:

I remember one time seeing a newspaper add of this huge piano inventory clean out.  The selling phrase was "refurbished pianos once used in RCM piano exams"

I was like whoa this must be a real catch! So I went down there, and not a single Steinway in sight (cause I don't think RCM uses Steinway), but a sh8t load of old dusty Kawais!  I was like OMG what a freaking waste of my time.  I tried out some of the "Grand" Kawais (an oxymoron I think), and they were priced at about $14000.  I said...hm for that price I think I'd keep saving until another $20000 comes by then buy a decent Yamaha or Baldwin or something along the lines with 35K+.  Yeah needless to say, even when they advertised that they would pay the taxes, its still a NO!

Plus there was only one white sales person (which I trust) and the rest Chinese sales people with business suits (oh puh-lease, you scummy cheappies) that follow you around and keeps asking, "You like? Special price! Kawai good!".

I'm Chinese and I found myself offended!  I mean come one don't hassle me arond while I take a look at your load!  How would you like it if I followed you all around and said "You want some dim sum? Fry noodle?pig's blood? YUMMY!" Yeah right...god those people are scummy (not all of them like myself for example).

I'm not racist..because I don't dislike people just on how they look, but how they treat other people without a care or thought.  And don't tell me those people were trying to be attentive, they were trying to rip me off without any guilt.  I know those people; and I despise them. 

I'm asian cheap too.... but not THAT cheap.... what a disgrace - ripping people off of one of the most beautiful and magnificent musical instruments invented. 
I AM NOT A NAZI!   

Anyways back to the "Shop of horrors"

I even asked if they carried any Steinway just incase I didn’t look hard enough around the 200+ inventory of crap pianos (I test about 40 of the Kawai uprights and 10 of the grands..and they suxxors)  As you can see, I don’t like Kawai, I feel the only decent Asian brand so far is Yamaha, but it has to be the American Yamaha.  Good thing I didn’t ask if they had any Bosendorfies! 

Okay so what? The room was very large, which could distort the sound of the pianos, but still the action was poorly done, and you just “know” that you’ve got a loser piano sitting there begging to be bought and rip the poor person off. 

Now if they were talking about some Italian pianos…then that’d make me look into closer.

Did you guys ever come across some hybrid of what appears to be a grand piano mixed together with a keyboard?  I keep thinking its digital, but the action was very poor and the sound was um… sad. 

That's my rant.  I can hear the flak from all you Kawai lovers!

Well guess what! I don't care! 

yeah that's my tongue!

[donjuan]

lol spatula thats hilarious!  But be careful or some asian gang member is going to rip your head off!   Haha for some reason your story reminds me of the time I was passing through T&T at the mall and there was this huge asian guy behind the meat counter and he had this ginormous meat cleaver he was using to hack up lobsters while they were still alive.  He had this wide grin across his face and was yelling in cantonese through a hole in the wall at someone in the backend.  I felt so bad for the lobsters- why not just cut the head off first and save it some suffering?  Oh well, only in a Chinese supermarket.. (im not rascist- Im half Chinese and just manage to notice things..)

I love chinese restaurants- Spatula, I want to know if you agree with my thesis: 
--------
Chinese people go to restaurants whether they are clean or dirty, just so long as the food is good.  White folks go to restaurants whether the food is good or not, just so long as it is clean. 
--------
well, what do you think??
although, I must say I was very impressed with that "Treasures of China" restaurant in your city.  My family and I go there every year when we pass by on our trip.  it's so interesting- Pretty much the only people who work there are asian males and white blonde females.  SERIOUS!  hmmm I wonder what goes on in the backend..

haha did you know there is a chinese restaurant here where I am called "Chin-kee" haha what a name for a chinese restaurant!! I couldnt get over it!

I also hate Kawais- damn muffled sound and sticky action!  Ill take a high quality digital grand ($8000+) over a 5'10'' Kawai KG2.

about the vacuum cleaner thing, im not that rude...they only slide for 6 feet of sidewalk before hitting the lawn....
donjuan

[Spatula]

That's so true!  Dirty asians and SARS...well at least MOST of the north american raised asians know better....like washing hands after they use the washroom.

Speaking of which, here's a sad sad story:

I was in Superstore, aka STUPIDSTORE, and I was using the filthy washrooms...and toilet paper and plugged toilets and soap and paper towel all over the floor...something you'd expect at a run down megastore wanna be...Anyways, some asian old guy just finished doing his business, and he zipped up and walked out without any regard to wash his hands! oh god I though to myself.

Next another guy, this time he was white, but dressed like some street person, used it, and SAME THING! walked out.  No change for him!  God the soap and water are free!  What does this poor guy want more? 

Now here's the real kicker.   An employee comes through and he has an apron that they wear when working in the produce section.  And SAME THING! oh my god I thoug to myself.  Now that is just...WRONG!

Yes Asians-Chinese eat where the food is "good" but don't give a rats ass about the toilets.  I agree.

I think the most cleanest and healthy minded Asians so far are the Japanese.  When my friend brought me to an acquaintence's place in Takarazuka, Hyogo Prefacture in Japan, we had a super awesome authentic Japanese meal…so damnnn good!

But it was so apparent I was Chinese simply because I didn’t know the Japanese used serving chopsticks, and you can’t just keep using your own chopsticks to get the food from the main course.  I felt embarrassed…OMG …the mom there said in English, friendly but stern…”douzo, please use this chopstick..okay?”

And I was like “Gomi-nasai!...” or something of that effect to apologize profusely.

Yeah no wonder Japan didn’t get SARS…they actually washed their hands, probably even after sex too!  Clean and friendly country.   

[Spatula]

Treasures of China is a bit pricey I think, I really like the Regency Palace and the Silver Dragon (sorry Nils, I know this is like UBER off topic from Digital pianos)

[nipon gaki]

hey donjuan,

I happen to be one of the luitenants in the  yamaha crew you were referring to.
After reading your post the "Don" wants to have a word with you. We are tracking you domain name at this time and have your home address. one of our associates will be waiting at your home to pick you up for a sit down.

Thank you very much for your imput

ciao,
the family

[Spatula]

Ve have vays of making zu talk

[donjuan]

hey donjuan,

I happen to be one of the luitenants in the  yamaha crew you were referring to.
After reading your post the "Don" wants to have a word with you. We are tracking you domain name at this time and have your home address. one of our associates will be waiting at your home to pick you up for a sit down.

Thank you very much for your imput

ciao,
the family

oh god!!! NO!!! What's this horse doing in my bed?! ahhhhhh!!!
 
seriously though, my heart jumped when I read your post..
donjuan

[Spatula]

Some Japanese-name Italian Guy, now this sounds like a future CSI case. 

[Brian Healey]

4. Acoustic piano keys bottom out on felt punchings, so at the bottom of the keystroke there is a shock absorber plus a little play in the key.  Digital keyboards have no shock absorber, so the keys bottom out hard, sending a tiny shock up the arm with every keystroke, leading to fatigue far sooner than on an acoustic.  Also that play at the bottom of the keystroke on an acoustic give me a feeling of depth and I think also aids in repetition.  It's a little hard to explain the feeling....

That's really true. I have a Yamaha P-80 digital piano at my house that I used to practice on quite a bit. Like a lot of people, I live in an apartment building where a regular piano would be too noisy. When I practiced at home, I noticed that after a while I would start to feel pains in my elbow and shoulder, and sometimes my lower back. This never happened to me from playing a real piano. A lot of times you don't notice it, but if you press a key hard on a digital piano, you can really feel the impact shock travel up your arm. It's like walking around barefoot on a cement floor. Since there's nothing absorbing the impact, you will eventually get pains in your feet and knees.

On the plus side, the action on my digital is harder than most acoustics I've played on, so after practicing on that thing and then going to an acoustic piano, it feels like I can fly all over the keys with no effort.

[xenon_monkey]

Digital Pianos are in their infancy.  Acoustics on the other hand have had centuries to develop.  Right now they are obviously not upto par, but just look at the progress made within the last decade or two.  Give it some time.

[bunbuns]

If you want you can check out my post on the most realistic digital and if anyone else has anymore input please put it in there I do have a budget myself accept around 2000 or more but I cant get an acoutstic because of my small home etc. =]

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5462.0.htmlhttp://

I have been considering the Yamaha pf-500 but I have not tried it yet probably this weekend but someoen did post about a cheaper digital they recommened!
Hope I help ya a lil =[                   
                                                                                  ~Bun Buns