At what point do you add pedal into a piece?

[ascolta]

When you are learning a new piece. At what point do you integrate pedal into the work?

I tend to work out the correct finger placement first, then proceed to 'learn' this section so to speak, so I'm able to play it at a moderate tempo. Then when there is no longer and hesitation in playing (Not thinking about what note I need to be hitting next etc.) I begin to work or the correct pedalling.

But what do you guys think though? Do you work with the pedal right from the beginning with everything else or add it later?

[j_menz]

I tend to start off with waaaaaay too much pedal, and whittle it back as I go on. I believe this is generally frowned upon.

[outin]

When you are learning a new piece. At what point do you integrate pedal into the work?

I tend to work out the correct finger placement first, then proceed to 'learn' this section so to speak, so I'm able to play it at a moderate tempo. Then when there is no longer and hesitation in playing (Not thinking about what note I need to be hitting next etc.) I begin to work or the correct pedalling.

But what do you guys think though? Do you work with the pedal right from the beginning with everything else or add it later?

It depends on the piece. Some pieces seem useless to practice without the pedal for long because it is so important to the overall sound of the piece and if they are easy to pedal it doesn't interfere much with learning. But mostly I practice without until I am quite secure with the hands.

Usually I ignore the pedal markings and just go by ear, but right now I'm struggling with a piece that is difficult to pedal well and I should do it in a certain way...the right foot takes too much of my attention

[kakeithewolf]

I never bother discriminating. I just constantly hold down the pedal.

[awesom_o]

I never bother discriminating. I just constantly hold down the pedal.

Even when the harmony changes?

[thorn]

Knowing what your feet are doing is as important as knowing what your fingers are doing. I work it all out from the very beginning (and then refine it later- the same way we do with fingering, touch, etc).

Saying that, I always practice "notey" passages without. Example from a current piece, the middle section of Albeniz Triana. It's easy in these sorts of places to just stick the pedal down and flatter ourselves with something that sounds "about right", but take the pedal away and you usually find notes that aren't being taken care of.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I tend to start off with waaaaaay too much pedal, and whittle it back as I go on. I believe this is generally frowned upon.

Everything you do is frowned upon.

[gyzzzmo]

The parts i can sightread and play instantly, i use pedal if needed. The rest i usually start using the pedal only if i can decently play it.

[j_menz]

Everything you do is frowned upon.

Bad day in class?

Go practice your Wolfie. 

[iansinclair]

I tend to start off with waaaaaay too much pedal, and whittle it back as I go on. I believe this is generally frowned upon.

Me too.

And even when I know a piece well, I tend to use more pedal than most folks do.  On the other hand, integration of what my feet and hands are doing is second nature to me -- I was trained as an organist.  The fact of the matter is that in many pieces I like the resonance of the piano with the dampers raised!  But I do try very hard not to smear notes by leaving the dampers raised when the note changes, which leads to a good deal of motion in the pedal (which is also unusual, I believe).

[j_menz]

The fact of the matter is that in many pieces I like the resonance of the piano with the dampers raised!  But I do try very hard not to smear notes by leaving the dampers raised when the note changes, which leads to a good deal of motion in the pedal (which is also unusual, I believe).

Likewise. Have you heard of (or used) the Pedale Harmonique? I'm rather intrigued.

[awesom_o]

It's easy in these sorts of places to just stick the pedal down and flatter ourselves with something that sounds "about right", but take the pedal away and you usually find notes that aren't being taken care of.

I like this part.

[iansinclair]

Likewise. Have you heard of (or used) the Pedale Harmonique? I'm rather intrigued.

Hadn't heard of it before -- just went and "googled" it.  Looks like a very interesting concept!  Somehow I think adding it to my piano isn't going to be an option, though.  I'll have to find an instrument with it in place and try it.  I wonder a little how it compares with the half pedaling, which I do all the time, though...

[kakeithewolf]

Even when the harmony changes?

Yes. Piano is far from my forte, and I personally consider it to be only useful to me when creating a deep resounding piece on such things as tragedy or misery. Therefore, the pedal serves as a great utility. My only piano concerto uses the pedal for the entire piece.

[awesom_o]

Yes. Piano is far from my forte........... My only piano concerto uses the pedal for the entire piece.

We noticed. There didn't seem to be very many notes in the entire piece. Rather a lot of low D#'s.... but not much else.

[kakeithewolf]

We noticed. There didn't seem to be very many notes in the entire piece. Rather a lot of low D#'s.... but not much else.

Again, that is because I am not particularly a fan of piano. The only place in that that had any decent number of notes was the fugue. I neither see the piano as a joyful instrument nor one I am particularly fond of being fast.

[awesom_o]

Again, that is because I am not particularly a fan of piano.

What are you doing writing a concerto for an instrument you do not love? And what are you doing posting on a piano forum if you aren't particularly a fan of piano?

[thesixthsensemusic]

Well, I tend to treat the pedal as a separate hand and add it only after having learned the finger work of the piece first one hand at a time then together.

But this is not too much of a rigid rule for me, when playing something that's relatively easy to sight-read, I'll happily add the pedal from the start. But then again I would generally not practice such a piece with hands separate either.

[kakeithewolf]

What are you doing writing a concerto for an instrument you do not love? And what are you doing posting on a piano forum if you aren't particularly a fan of piano?

It is not that I do not love the piano. It's more of the matter that, regardless of what I do with it, I can only seem to decently exact music that is more or less either funereal or depressing from it. Why? I'm not particularly sure. However, concerning the concerto, I cannot think of any lead instrument that more properly could convey the tone of the piece, which was fear and death.

On the latter question, I perhaps stay out of a subconscious desire to exact something good from piano. Whilst it is a weakness of mine, one should always strife to work on weaknesses as much as strengths.

[awesom_o]

Honestly, your main problem is your signature. Passion and creativity cannot exist without form and technique. Form and technique cannot exist without passion and creativity. You can't have musicality without technique, and you can't have technique without musicality.

Of course, this is just my opinion. There are no real facts in art. Only opinions.

For me, your concerto didn't manage to convey the two things that a concerto needs to convey:
the composer's absolute love of music, and the composer's absolute mastery of craft.

The love of music and the mastery of it have to come together for a composition to be of any real quality.

[kakeithewolf]

Honestly, your main problem is your signature. Passion and creativity cannot exist without form and technique. Form and technique cannot exist without passion and creativity. You can't have musicality without technique, and you can't have technique without musicality.

Of course, this is just my opinion. There are no real facts in art. Only opinions.

For me, your concerto didn't manage to convey the two things that a concerto needs to convey:
the composer's absolute love of music, and the composer's absolute mastery of craft.

The love of music and the mastery of it have to come together for a composition to be of any real quality.

I no longer believe that signature. I may never have, fully.

I do absolutely love music, but I'm not absolutely in love with every instrument. And even as I realize that I do not ever or ever have a chance at attaining mastery, even in the greatest cases, mastery is more aptly stated as proficiency, as you cannot truly master a subjective art.

However, I think its safe to say that this exchange has become pointlessly tangential.

[andrewkoay]

It depends on the piece. Some pieces seem useless to practice without the pedal for long because it is so important to the overall sound of the piece and if they are easy to pedal it doesn't interfere much with learning. But mostly I practice without until I am quite secure with the hands.

Usually I ignore the pedal markings and just go by ear, but right now I'm struggling with a piece that is difficult to pedal well and I should do it in a certain way...the right foot takes too much of my attention

With me it's the same case, I think practising without the pedalling is just useful to get the notes correct and playing cleanly, precisely with minimal effort, after that stage I often find that I actually need to practice the pedalling (coz you're going to pedal it in actual performance anyway), and the pedalling is an art in itself that is no less important than the fingerwork.

I also ignore the pedal markings for the most part (i also tend to ignore a lot of the composer's markings too hehe), I just experiment about to find my own special tone that I want to bring to my listeners, and I couldn't care less whether it is what the composer intended as long as I communicate what I want to communicate musically.

[coda_colossale]

.

[rovikered]

I never bother discriminating. I just constantly hold down the pedal.

Ugh! What a cacophony!
rk

[kakeithewolf]

Ugh! What a cacophony!
rk

Depending on tempo, potentially very much so.

[awesom_o]

Your signature just got even worse. You shouldn't need alcohol to enjoy either activity.

If that really is the case, then you're enjoying the alcohol, rather than the activities.

You sound like a person who feels down all of the time. I want to help you feel better about music.
 
If you can feel better about music, you will feel better about everything.

[kakeithewolf]

Your signature just got even worse. You shouldn't need alcohol to enjoy either activity.

If that really is the case, then you're enjoying the alcohol, rather than the activities.

You sound like a person who feels down all of the time. I want to help you feel better about music.
 
If you can feel better about music, you will feel better about everything.

Oh, I feel fantastic about music. If I didn't feel fantastic about music, I wouldn't keep composing, especially considering that I go out of my to make sure I won't get money for it.

I like music a lot. Just not piano in particular. I personally feel its an exceptionally overused instrument, the crutch instrument of many composers. It's familiar and relatable. Since its conception, it has been this way. I've heard enough of it for ten lifetimes. I can't recall making anything I consider lighthearted or joyful on piano, but such is fairly simple with other instruments for me.

And the point of my signature is that both activities are of such an incredibly dull, bland, and unenjoyable nature that I would have to impair myself through some means to consider them enjoyable.

[outin]

And the point of my signature is that both activities are of such an incredibly dull, bland, and unenjoyable nature that I would have to impair myself through some means to consider them enjoyable.

[kakeithewolf]

I speak only the truth.

[awesom_o]

Simply put, these two activities are anything BUT dull if you have sufficient skill....

[kakeithewolf]

Simply put, these two activities are anything BUT dull if you have sufficient skill....

I agree for piano. I do not agree for intercourse. Intercourse is bland and uninteresting in concept and practice to the very core. Without endorphin addiction or a depressant (like alcohol) to lower continence enough to be able to physically experience euphoria, it cannot be enjoyed.

[awesom_o]

The trick is to find that special someone who is super fun to play music with AND super fun to do other things with....

[kakeithewolf]

The trick is to find that special someone who is super fun to play music with AND super fun to do other things with....

First one is quite possible, the second is complete impossible.

It's like proposing to find someone that makes taxes fun, or being ill fun, or who makes dying a slow painful death fun. It's nonsensical as a notion. Inherently terrible things are immutably so for reasons.