Am I ready for the Chopin Etudes?

[ali_akbar_23]

Hey,

I'm fairly new to piano (about 13 months now) and up to now I've been doing a lot of Hanon and Czerny. About 3 months ago I thought I would try some of the Etudes by Chopin so I got started on Op 10 no 1 and 2 and although I can only play these pieces at ~60-70% of the recommended tempo I have seen HUGE benefits in technique and strength.
 A few days ago I met with a friend who has been playing for a few years now and he told me to stop playing these pieces because they were too advanced and I would hurt myself. Should I hold out on these pieces until I'm 'ready' to study them?
 Finally if I was to carry on with the etudes, what piece from Op 10 would you recommend I study next?

Thanks in advance   

[theholygideons]

ignore your friend. there's nothing wrong with playing for fun right? 
This youtuber makes good tutorials on how to play the etudes

it's a decent starting point at least

[ale_ius]

I can  only see you hurting yourself if you do not play them with your hands....

Alee

[outin]

Hey,

I'm fairly new to piano (about 13 months now) and up to now I've been doing a lot of Hanon and Czerny. About 3 months ago I thought I would try some of the Etudes by Chopin so I got started on Op 10 no 1 and 2 and although I can only play these pieces at ~60-70% of the recommended tempo I have seen HUGE benefits in technique and strength.
 A few days ago I met with a friend who has been playing for a few years now and he told me to stop playing these pieces because they were too advanced and I would hurt myself. Should I hold out on these pieces until I'm 'ready' to study them?
 Finally if I was to carry on with the etudes, what piece from Op 10 would you recommend I study next?

Thanks in advance   

Don't know if you will hurt yourself, but I certainly doubt you're ready to make them any justice ot really benefit from playing them after just 13 months 

I'm guessing you don't have a teacher?

[ali_akbar_23]

ignore your friend. there's nothing wrong with playing for fun right? 
This youtuber makes good tutorials on how to play the etudes

it's a decent starting point at least

Paul Bartons tutorials where how I managed to get so far with op 10 no 1 and 2 

I started piano for fun so I could play pieces by Nobuo Uematsu, never thought I would get serious and want study Chopin.

[ali_akbar_23]

Don't know if you will hurt yourself, but I certainly doubt you're ready to make them any justice ot really benefit from playing them after just 13 months 

I'm guessing you don't have a teacher?

No I do not have a teacher, I graduated last year so the majority of my wages are going towards paying off my loans asap. I feel I've done fairly well on my own, along with instructional videos from Paul Barton and Josh Wright when I need a little help

[tdawe]

It's impossible to comment authoritatively without hearing a recording of your playing. It's likely that after 13 months playing, you won't have the technique required to tackle Chopin's studies. I wouldn't call it harmful but your attentions could probably be better focused elsewhere and there is a good chance you are committing bad habits to memory. Again - we can't hear a recording, but it's likely those pieces (Op.10/1+2 are some of the hardest of Chopin's studies) are not being performed that well. As for which piece you were to learn next, each of the etudes is tailored towards a different technical skill - for example, you've been working on arpeggios and chromatic scales so far... so which etude to study depends on which aspect of piano technique you want to improve. Chromatic thirds? Op.25 no.6 - Octaves? Op.25 no. 10 - Polyphonic playing (that is sustaining the melody and accompaniment in one hand simultaneously)? Op.10 no. 6, and so on..

There is no better advice anyone can give you than to get a teacher - even if that's not what you wanted to hear! If money is an issue it's not necessary to have regular lessons (although for the beginner pianist it is more helpful; it is usually a while until you are ready to learn independently). You are probably making many mistakes that you aren't noticing that a teacher would pick up on, and a good teacher will help you structure your practice so you are more efficient and approach learning new music in a more effective manner.

[ali_akbar_23]

Thank you for your comment. I knew when I started these pieces were very difficult, but read that slow practice on pieces above ones current level is very beneficial. I know from practicing 10/2 fingers 3 4 and 5 have become a lot more co-operative and basic arpeggios seem like a walk in the park after slow practice with 10/1. Maybe I could find someone to take a look at my playing to fix any issues/bad habits?

I would like to learn as many Etudes as possible, I just find Czerny and Hanon very dry and repetitive to the point where they were becoming a chore to play. Are there any pieces you would suggest for my to try? Bach preludes maybe?

P.S. I learned the right hand for op 25/6, very easy to memorize, but playing them smooth, even slowly, is an entirely different story XD

[outin]

Thank you for your comment. I knew when I started these pieces were very difficult, but read that slow practice on pieces above ones current level is very beneficial. I know from practicing 10/2 fingers 3 4 and 5 have become a lot more co-operative and basic arpeggios seem like a walk in the park after slow practice with 10/1. Maybe I could find someone to take a look at my playing to fix any issues/bad habits?

I would like to learn as many Etudes as possible, I just find Czerny and Hanon very dry and repetitive to the point where they were becoming a chore to play. Are there any pieces you would suggest for my to try? Bach preludes maybe?

P.S. I learned the right hand for op 25/6, very easy to memorize, but playing them smooth, even slowly, is an entirely different story XD

That's because the etudes are so difficult and require advanced skill. It' not just about practicing them long enough to make the playing smooth.

Yes, practicing pieces a little above your skill can be beneficial. But what you are doing is taking a huge jump upwards. I don't think grades are always that important, but just to give you an example:
If there are 8 grades, 1 is beginner level pieces and above 8 is advanced literature (normally worked on after many years, maybe even 10, of continuous piano study). Most of the Chopin etudes would be above grade 8. They are something that even professional pianists don't find easy. If it was possible to learn advanced literature after a year, we would have every other piano student playing it, right?

There's little benefit of using time for just learning the notes, if you don't have anyone to actually teach you HOW. And I doubt many teachers would even try to teach the etudes before teaching a lot of other things first.

Don't take this as trying to discourage you from aiming high. I have tried the same thing myself at some point, but it didn't take me that long to realize how senseless it was

[ali_akbar_23]

Thank you for your reply outin

I think i'll leave the etudes for now until I've had more experience with piano.
I might just play Op 10/1 and 10/2 as warm ups or at the end of a practice session, would be a shame to forget these pieces.

I'm not going to get discouraged, these are amazing studies which have left an impression on me, I'm sure I'll be able to play these some day

[tdawe]

I don't think you need to worry about forgetting them if you have practised them a lot. When you come back to them in the future it will all come back to you (plus you'll see where you went wrong/want to improve!) You seem to have your head screwed on properly so I don't doubt you'll be able to play the etudes in the future.

edit:
In reply to your question about easier works for technical benefit. Debussy and Chopin's etudes are really the benchmark and all awesome pieces, but yes you're right, they're extremely difficult. Hanon and Czerny are good if you can keep up without getting demotivated. I like Scarlatti sonatas and Bach Inventions for the intermediate - try looking at these. Clementi can be useful too.  However, I don't think it is worth learning technical works without a teacher, because if you're missing the point of them you could simply be burning in mistakes + wasting your time - it's impossible to overstate how helpful having a qualified eye to help you notice mistakes is...

[ali_akbar_23]

 Thank you for the reply tdawe

I'll do some research scarlatti and see how I like it. I think I'll try Bach later in the future, the Bach fugue and toccata in D minor caught my attention along with some of his preludes so I may enjoy studying these pieces. The only reason I got as far as I did with 10/1 and 10/2 was because they peaked my interest which gave me good motivation.
Sadly the same can't be said for Czerny and Hanon. D:

For now a piano teacher is not an option, my priority currently is paying off my student loans, so I'll be relying on videos and the forum for a short while. Once I'm sturdy financially I'll look towards getting a good teacher and maybe even a nice upright

[outin]

I'll do some research scarlatti and see how I like it. I think I'll try Bach later in the future, the Bach fugue and toccata in D minor caught my attention along with some of his preludes so I may enjoy studying these pieces. The only reason I got as far as I did with 10/1 and 10/2 was because they peaked my interest which gave me good motivation.
Sadly the same can't be said for Czerny and Hanon. D:

I also recommend Scarlatti. He wrote over 550 sonatas and there are many that are not too difficult. They are all available free on the internet
https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Scarlatti,_Domenico

Even though they are short they are musically interesting and stylistically and technically diverse. Most are available on Youtube played on the piano. IMO they work just as well on the piano as they do with the harpsichord.

Just start listening, I am sure you will find many that you enjoy! They don't require large streches as the Romantic era pieces often do and as long as you keep the tempo suitable to your skills you are unlikely to injure yourself (which I guess could happen with the Chopin Etudes).

BTW. Chopin also gave Scarlatti to his students to play  

[awesom_o]

 Chopin also gave Scarlatti to his students to play  

He certainly didn't let very many of his students touch the etudes!

[outin]

He certainly didn't let very many of his students touch the etudes!

Yes, that's what I've read... and his students were already quite skillful when they arrived.

[hfmadopter]

Thank you for the reply tdawe

I'll do some research scarlatti and see how I like it.

As long as you are looking around, have a look at some Clementi works. He has pieces that fit students well from levels 3-8+ and it's a twist away from Baroque. Way back when, Clementi fit my mind set. I enjoyed his works before we moved on and that was well before the etudes. my teacher used pieces of the etudes for other composers hard spots as studies. That was maybe around my 5th year. I didn't do a full etude till later on FWIW. So she believed that parts of etudes were good study bits.

[leroy199]

I agree with all thats said about Chopins etude being extremely difficult to do justice.  I personally would not touch them until 6/7 years of serious playing followed closely by a teacher if you want to play them properly and up to tempo.

Clementi, Scarlatti and haydn is all good but nothing like chopins etude.  I would recommend you one piece that can be maybe still a bit difficult but allot more easy then any chopin etude.  its called La Valse d'Amélie composed by Yann Tiersen.  listen to the hole piece its got great left hand
and its is verry etude like.   there is also Heller etude op46 n29.
 
I leave u a link to the 2 pieces tell what you think

For heller click on 45:00

[ali_akbar_23]

Thank you for you replies everyone

I listened to a few pieces from Scarlatti and was amazed at how great they are. I only listen to a hand full on the way to work, but Sonata K 239 in F minor and Sonata K 141 in D minor with those dizzying repeated notes stuck out to me, guess I'm going to be listening to his sonatas all day tomorrow
The Sonata in D minor L.108 played by Daniil at the Rubinstein competition was rather good to (even though I can't stand youtube audio)

oh and leroy199 I've heard La Valse D'Amelie, but didn't know the name of the piece until now, so thank you XD. As for Heller, I found that it was much better than what I use as exercises at the moment, but still found the structure very close to Hanon, I might just try it out this weekend to see how I like it so thank you for the suggestion.

I will definitely give some Scarlatti sonatas a try and I like the fact Chopin gave these pieces to his students. Hopefully it will help prepare me for his pieces (and maybe La campanella XD).

[gregh]

No I do not have a teacher, I graduated last year so the majority of my wages are going towards paying off my loans asap. I feel I've done fairly well on my own, along with instructional videos from Paul Barton and Josh Wright when I need a little help

Completely unrelated to the subject, but...

It's understandable that money is tight, and it's understandable that you want to get out from the weight of student loans. But, in terms of the opportunity cost, it can be a mistake to pay off your student loans too quickly. You're probably paying around 3.5% interest on them, while it is not hard to find mutual funds that will return a pretty reliable 8%, or even more. Just throwing that out there for consideration-- the sooner you get started, the more time compound interest has to work for you.

And for goodness' sake, don't carry a balance on your credit card because you're trying to pay off a student loan earlier!

[ali_akbar_23]

Hello Greg

In the UK the interest rate is extremely low, I started in 09/10 and during my 3 years period at university the interest rates were 0%,1.5%,1.5% respectively.... I think. I was fortunate enough to have a part time job before, during and after my university studies. I think I only have ~£2.4k left to pay, not bad for just over a year

[outin]

I listened to a few pieces from Scarlatti and was amazed at how great they are. I only listen to a hand full on the way to work, but Sonata K 239 in F minor and Sonata K 141 in D minor with those dizzying repeated notes stuck out to me, guess I'm going to be listening to his sonatas all day tomorrow
The Sonata in D minor L.108 played by Daniil at the Rubinstein competition was rather good to (even though I can't stand youtube audio)

So you like fast and flashy

The fast repeated notes will be difficult to do without developing  tension. You'll need some pretty solid technique. I would not dare to try...141 is quite virtuosic, just listened to Martha...my hand hurts from just listening 

K239: You managed to find one that I haven't heard 

If you listen to various great pianists play the Scarlatti sonatas, you'll notice that there are many ways to interpret them, and still the results are just wonderful. He managed to wrote them in the way that many of the faster ones sound pleasant when played under tempo. That makes practicing them enjoyable, at least for me. I cannot say the same for Bach (waiting for something to hit me....)

[hfmadopter]

I cannot say the same for Bach (waiting for something to hit me....)

Bach wrote his music with the sole purpose of scrambling brains I think. I love some of it but it's a tough study. Good for the hands, I just keep some two part inventions going. I don't plan to get very far into Bach on this return trip to piano but those inventions are good exercise.

[ali_akbar_23]

So you like fast and flashy

The fast repeated notes will be difficult to do without developing  tension. You'll need some pretty solid technique. I would not dare to try...141 is quite virtuosic, just listened to Martha...my hand hurts from just listening 

K239: You managed to find one that I haven't heard 

If you listen to various great pianists play the Scarlatti sonatas, you'll notice that there are many ways to interpret them, and still the results are just wonderful. He managed to wrote them in the way that many of the faster ones sound pleasant when played under tempo. That makes practicing them enjoyable, at least for me. I cannot say the same for Bach (waiting for something to hit me....)

I've always loved fast pieces, Op10/4, La Campanella and Moonlight Sonata 3rd mov are some of the first piano pieces I listened to.

I don't think I'll be trying K141 anytime soon, but will aspire to play it one day and your right about the different interpretations, I listened to a much slower version of K141 (compared to Martha) for example and it felt like a fresh piece to me.

I like a hand full of Bach pieces and I agree with hfmadopter, I end up with poo brains after I try to play them.

[enochy]

Play Chopin Etude 25 No 7.
It's like a tongue twister but for your hands/feet/nose/whatever you use to play the piano 
If you're still a teenager 18-, brag to your friends that you can't play even the first few measures at the correct tempo. They're super easy slowly, but VERY difficult hard.

Basically a piece with almost only thirds.

[mjames]

Play Chopin Etude 25 No 7.
It's like a tongue twister but for your hands/feet/nose/whatever you use to play the piano 
If you're still a teenager 18-, brag to your friends that you can't play even the first few measures at the correct tempo. They're super easy slowly, but VERY difficult hard.

Basically a piece with almost only thirds.

Is that the one in c sharp minor? The runs in 64 notes scare me a bit lol

[enochy]

Sorry, I meant Etude in G-Sharp Minor. The Op. 25, No. 6.

It's super easy to sight read.
Super hard to play fast.

[brogers70]

For things that are a bit etude-like, but more musical than Czerny, you could try Kuhlau sonatinas. They are on a similar technical level to the School of Velocity, but much nicer to listen to.