Scale Fingering

[nyiregyhazi]

So an awful lot more words since I posted this, and still not ONE SINGLE example of where it would be the best fingering for any excerpt from the repertoire.

OK then.  

For an arpeggio example, see the last movement of the small Schubert A major sonata. I finger both the C sharp major and the D major first inversion  arpeggios the same- which means a thumb on the F sharp for D major. It's not something I'd do casually, but it works better to keep the physical groupings the same. Without it the right hand is too fiddly to connect to the next chord and it's in a needlessly large number of positions. It's better as two chunks.

I couldn't give a scale example with C major fingering, but be aware that three groups of five is often good. Liszt writes this in the Rhapsody espagnole, which demands a thumb on a black key. Also, Busoni's fingering for chromatic scales in Wild Jagd is similar. Five fingers twice, demands the left passing to a thumb on a black key. There's no way to do it so fast with "normal" fingering.

[jonathanbaker]

Another example of arpeggios + thumbs on black keys (for those who do) is perhaps the most common of all, the third movement of Beethoven's Op. 27 No. 2 with the C sharp minor ascending 'long arpeggio' configuration.

I enjoy working arpeggios in all keys this way, including diminished and some 7 chords, because the awkwardness requires me to adjust with greater flexibility. The entire bridge of the hand and fingers must be very elastic, very pliant and supple, and for me that is the point of the exercise.

I use some of Tausig's exercises (which he probably borrowed from Liszt) for the same purpose:  because the issue of overcoming stiffness with a highly 'relaxed' flexibility is the first requirement. I also like to challenge my comfort zone by putting my hand-finger mechanism in configurations that seem awkward but are in fact quite possible.

My internal conversation at the time may be: "Why am I resisting this fingering here? Why? Let's look at this more carefully. There, it is loosening up. So it is playable after all." And so it goes. And this parlays into the challenge of ever more familiarity and comfort with the topography of the keyboard in relation to the hand.

As for all scales with a uniform fingering, ah, well, I will give a good test run tomorrow!

[lostinidlewonder]

That's exactly what virtually everybody else who is an advanced pianist/composer has been saying in this thread.

Every single sentence written here IS NOT just about this.

It is therefore unclear what you have been arguing against in your earlier posts.

It is no surprise that it is unclear to you. APPARENTLY you are a student who studies piano in Russia whos teacher is P2U an account who ran away. As soon as he ran away you created this account, so I don't really want to waste my time with made up identities.

Using the fingering for C in all other keys regardless of black-and-white structures of the keyboard is just ONE variation on that same theme.

And a variation can be inefficient and wrong compared to the proper way.

Any renovative ideas in Godowsky's transcriptions in terms of fingering and sound effects can be found in Liszt's bundles of Technical Exercises,

So very wrong, go study some more piano with your imaginary teacher.

albeit in a more condensed form.

Covering your ass with generalizations, boring.

I suspect Godowsky, who was basically self-taught, knew them and used them to expand his compositional resources, as did Busoni. What Chopin merely hinted at in his new style of piano playing Liszt carried to its limit.

Why don't you go study Godowsky and stop pretending to know about his works?

Very often, pieces as such distract the player from finding very simple but quite essential secrets the instrument can reveal to you by taking another approach.

Wrong, in pieces you have a contextual problem that needs to be solved. In scales you have a fixed system. One does not merely apply what they learn from technical scales directly to pieces with ZERO contextual observation. Those of you who pretend to know about piano think that this can be done, you are all a joke really.

Any renovative ideas in Godowsky's transcriptions in terms of fingering and sound effects can be found in Liszt's bundles of Technical Exercises,

So very wrong, go study some more piano with your imaginary teacher.

albeit in a more condensed form.

Covering your ass with generalizations, boring.

For example: how many thousands of pieces does one have to play to realize that if you "mirror" the hands in major scales (symmetric inversion), you get this:

C (-) from I to I (=Ionian) -> = C (-) From III to III (=Phrygian)
G (1#) from I to I (=Ionian) -> F (1b) From III to III (=Phrygian)
D (2#) from I to I (=Ionian) -> Bb (2b) From III to III (=Phrygian)
A (3#) from I to I (=Ionian) -> Eb (3b) From III to III (=Phrygian)
E (4#) from I to I (=Ionian) -> Ab (4b) From III to III (=Phrygian)
B (5#) from I to I (=Ionian) -> Db (5b) From III to III (=Phrygian)
F# (6#) from I to I (=Ionian) -> Gb (6b) From III to III (=Phrygian)

F (1b) from I to I (=Ionian) -> G (1#) From III to III (=Phrygian)
Bb (2b) from I to I (=Ionian) -> D (2#) From III to III (=Phrygian)
Eb (3b) from I to I (=Ionian) -> A (3#) From III to III (=Phrygian)
Ab (4b) from I to I (=Ionian) -> E (4#) From III to III (=Phrygian)
Db (5b) from I to I (=Ionian) -> B (5#) From III to III (=Phrygian)
Gb (6b) from I to I (=Ionian) -> F# (6#) From III to III (=Phrygian)

Stop boring us with copy pastes from google.

This works both ways, so you can use one hand to solve technical problems in the other one in unexpected ways. One may also find out in this way how illogical the traditional fingerings for scales actually are. Minor scales have their own simple "regularities" and so do triads, chords, etc. Is this all really "a waste of time"? I'd say it's an incredible leap forward in understanding transcendental technique, much more effective than simply repeating pieces until you know them and until you have practised all the life out of them.

This paragraph is full of hot air and tons of generalisations which have not been defined, thus is useless. You go study your technical scales good for you! I couldn't care less if you study wrong or not

[dima_76557]

@ lostinidlewonder

You are just a mediocre cocktail pianist and your "improvisations" tell me that you do not have the technique for anything that comes even close to a Godowsky transcription.

Second, as an extremely hateful Asian, you have no business teaching anybody here anything about a culture that is not your own.

[lostinidlewonder]

@ lostinidlewonder

You are just a mediocre cocktail pianist and your "improvisations" tell me that you do not have the technique for anything that comes even close to a Godowsky transcription.

I don't mind hearing that from someone who makes up multiple accounts and pretends to be whatever.

Second, as an Asian, you have no business teaching anybody here anything about a culture that is not your own.

I am part Chinese, that is Asian you know lol.

[chicoscalco]

I don't mind hearing that from someone who makes up multiple accounts and pretends to be whatever.

I am part Chinese, that is Asian you know lol.

Wow... I'm really surprised with this attitude  I joined recently this forum, and I did not know this kind of stuff happened here. Why taking it personal, dude? It's ok to have different opinions... This forum exists solely for the reason that there is no truth! No magic formula, nothing. We are all here trying to learn new approaches, hear different opinions, not just teach. If one has all the answers, he wouldn't be here...
Sorry for missing the point of the topic, but I just had to write something... this behavior deeply shocked me! 

[lostinidlewonder]

Don't worry chicoscalco it doesn't bother me. Facebook has a lot more vicious attacks.

[dima_76557]

I don't mind hearing that from someone who makes up multiple accounts and pretends to be whatever.

Since you are the one to accuse, you prove to the administrator what you are saying. I have the documentation ready to make you eat your tongue.

I am part Chinese, that is Asian you know lol.

Judging from This hateful topic, nobody will have any trouble determining what the other half is.

P.S.: You also said that I copy-pasted the part about symmetric inversion. Either prove it with a source or keep your silence.

[lostinidlewonder]

Since you are the one to accuse, you prove to the administrator what you are saying. I have the documentation ready to make you eat your tongue.

P2U you tried to get admin involved with your previous account, your motives to do it again highlights who you really are.

Judging from This hateful topic, nobody will have any trouble determining what the other half is.

Wow so personal P2U.

P.S.: You also said that I copy-pasted the part about symmetric inversion. Either prove it with a source or keep your silence.

Why should I? Maybe you just plagiarized it from a book, is it your own intellectual property now?

[dima_76557]

Maybe you just plagiarized it from a book, is it your own intellectual property now?

It is my own experience, and as far as I know, nobody has ever highlighted the particular conclusions that can be drawn from that diagram. I see no reason to claim intellectual property though. Everyone is free to consider it his/her own.

[lostinidlewonder]

Everyone is free to consider it his own.

Yeah cos women cant think right? lol

[dima_76557]

Yeah cos women cant think right? lol

Politically corrected.

[jonathanbaker]

Wow... I'm really surprised with this attitude  I joined recently this forum, and I did not know this kind of stuff happened here. Why taking it personal, dude? It's ok to have different opinions... This forum exists solely for the reason that there is no truth! No magic formula, nothing. We are all here trying to learn new approaches, hear different opinions, not just teach. If one has all the answers, he wouldn't be here...
Sorry for missing the point of the topic, but I just had to write something... this behavior deeply shocked me! 

I concur with your assessment. I just joined Piano Street today and am disappointed with the petty inductiveness I see. Wading through pissing contests is not worth paying for.

[ahinton]

I concur with your assessment. I just joined Piano Street today and am disappointed with the petty inductiveness I see. Wading through pissing contests is not worth paying for.

I'm sorry that you've walked into this kjind of rubbish and so soon; let me assure you as a member of pianostreet for quite a few years that it's not all like this here!

Best,

Alistair

[jonathanbaker]

I'm sorry that you've walked into this kjind of rubbish and so soon; let me assure you as a member of pianostreet for quite a few years that it's not all like this here!
Best,
Alistair

Thank you for the feedback. I sincerely want to learn from my colleagues at this website. There is always another pianist with a fresh perspective I would benefit from considering. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom.  For instance, being challenged (in a healthy way) to experiment with fingering scales as suggested in this thread is just the sort of creative interaction I seek.

Best regards,

Jonathan

[nyiregyhazi]

Thank you for the feedback. I sincerely want to learn from my colleagues at this website. There is always another pianist with a fresh perspective I would benefit from considering. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom.  For instance, being challenged (in a healthy way) to experiment with fingering scales as suggested in this thread is just the sort of creative interaction I seek.

Best regards,

Jonathan

I'm afraid that the poster lostinidlewonder takes the same rude and personally directed tone whenever anyone has the audacity to disagree with him. I lost all patience for him when he made a very rude and unprovoked attack on the playing of a young teenaged girl in the competition last year. Fortunately most posters do stick to the topical issues, however- rather resort to childish heckling of points with such empty retorts as "boring" and "a joke" etc.

[nyiregyhazi]

Another example of arpeggios + thumbs on black keys (for those who do) is perhaps the most common of all, the third movement of Beethoven's Op. 27 No. 2 with the C sharp minor ascending 'long arpeggio' configuration.

Agreed, but I wouldn't put this in any unusual category. It's when passing the thumb that black keys are notably unusual. For that reason, I'd distinguish between "broken chords" and "arpeggios".

[awesom_o]

Wading through pissing contests is not worth paying for.

When the dicks come out and the pee starts flying, I prefer to microwave some popcorn and just observe   It can get quite smelly if you're doing the actual wading....

[lostinidlewonder]

1) You don't actually pay to read posts on pianostreet, you pay to see the sheet music.

2) It is funny how people have to put in their 2 cents when an argument has nothing to do with them.

3) You all must be internet noobs if you think argument on here is any different to anywhere else on the internet.

4) Don't be intimidated by my strong stances, if you are then please I don't really care lol.

I'm afraid that the poster lostinidlewonder takes the same rude and personally directed tone whenever anyone has the audacity to disagree with him. I lost all patience for him when he made a very rude and unprovoked attack on the playing of a young teenaged girl in the competition last year. Fortunately most posters do stick to the topical issues, however- rather resort to childish heckling of points with such empty retorts as "boring" and "a joke" etc.

Lol Nyire you where banned from pianoworld for your stupid remarks, do you want me to copy paste the PM where you admitted this? Pot calling the kettle?? lol

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm sorry that you've walked into this kjind of rubbish and so soon; let me assure you as a member of pianostreet for quite a few years that it's not all like this here!

Best,

Alistair

And your "gentlemen" like arguments with Thal is any different? Please!

[nyiregyhazi]

1) You don't actually pay to read posts on pianostreet, you pay to see the sheet music.

2) It is funny how people have to put in their 2 cents when an argument has nothing to do with them.

3) You all must be internet noobs if you think argument on here is any different to anywhere else on the internet.

4) Don't be intimidated by my strong stances, if you are then please I don't really care lol.
Lol Nyire you where banned from pianoworld for your stupid remarks, do you want me to copy paste the PM where you admitted this? Pot calling the kettle?? lol

"admitted"? I never denied any such thing. In fact I was banned after expressing my disgust at a poster who made a very rude and unprovoked attack on a new member. I expressed my disgust at the attack (which was not at all unsual from that member, who has twice been banned from this very forum for similar behaviour) and reported the post to the moderators- and they chose to ban me.

Also, seeing as you're complaining about the dishonesty of supposed fake identities, I think we might want to consider the post in which you claimed x number of years of professional teaching experience (assuming your identity to be unknown)- a figure which would mean you have been teaching professionally since your time as a very young child, when cross-referenced with your (poorly hidden) identity. 

Rather than throw around accusations about issues of honesty and conduct (from a weak standing point) perhaps you could just stick to topics under debate- in the proper spirit of debate (ie discrediting points with counterpoints- rather than calling them "silly" or whatever else and making ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagrees with you).

PS copy and paste whatever you like from this forum. I have nothing to hide. However, I really don't think you'd like me to respond by quoting some of the abusive and expletive riddled PMs and which I retain a record of. As I say, you'd be far better off sticking to topical issues than trying to either put others down or place yourself on any kind of pedestal.

[lostinidlewonder]

"admitted"? I never denied any such thing. In fact I was banned after expressing my disgust at a poster who made a very rude and unprovoked attack on a new member. I expressed my disgust at the attack (which was not at all unsual from that member, who has twice been banned from this very forum for similar behaviour) and reported the post to the moderators- and they chose to ban me.

Great its common knowledge now that you got banned for chucking a hissy fit. Looks like things haven't changed.

[nyiregyhazi]

Great its common knowledge now that you got banned for chucking a hissy fit. Looks like things haven't changed.

Yes, I was banned for challenging a poster who indulged in unprovoked rudeness towards another member (and who has since been banned here for the same old behaviour). I presume you were banned too, given how many years it was since your last post in that forum. If you keep posting ad hominem attacks when people disagree with you, it's worth considering the possibility that you will be banned here too. 

Personally I'll make this my last off-topic post and wait for something pianistically interesting to discuss before making any further postings.