Well Tempered Clavier - Which Edition?

[gkatele]

Hello all - new to the forum, and new to the piano - again after 30 years!

At the ripe old age of 54, I've begun to take lessons again - after a 30 year hiatus (college, post grad education, family, etc). When my teacher asked me what I wanted to learn to play, I told her that, when I was young, I played Lizst (Liebestraum), Grieg (Sonata in E-Minor) and Rachmaninoff (Preludes in C# minor and G minor).

Now that I'm an old man, I want to learn Bach.

We've begun with the Well Tempered Clavier - the prelude and fugue in C-minor from Book 1.

In some of the areas, the fingering is driving me crazy.

Which published edition of this work would you all recommend for me so that I can get the fingering "right?"

Thanks in advance,


George

[xvimbi]

Congratulations for coming back to it!

Since you are an adult (re-)beginner, your teacher will be able to discuss Bach (or any piece) on a completely different level. I would therefore recommend getting an Urtext version without fingerings and any other editorial stuff. It is much more fun to work it out yourself, including fingering, phrasing, tempo, etc. I hope, she knows Bach and Baroque music in general. You will see, you'll learn much more that way.

[bernhard]

I agree with xvimbi.

Nevertheless, you may wish to have a look at the ABRSM edition of the WTC, edited by Donald Tovey, which is arguably the best and most authoritative “student” edition (it will have fingerings and ornament realisations – which of course you should take just as suggestions and starting points).

You may also want to have a look here:

https://www-personal.umich.edu/~siglind/text.htm

and here:

https://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc.html

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Sydney]

There is one edition which I believe is the best at the moment in the world.
It is a Zenon edition (Japanese print music publisher), edited by Mr Giichiro Ichida who is a Bach Specialist.
This edition contains very detailed explanation for each P&F and, among other things, the finguring is incredible!! He uses his own finguring symbols and that are comprehensible by those who don't understand Japanese at all.
Of course finguring should be adjusted by each person, however, his finguring is the one very thought out deeply.

If possible, please try to get this edition. It is really obedient to the Urtext and when something is different from it, there is a detailed explanation with comparison to with other editions.

[mosis]

Nevertheless, you may wish to have a look at the ABRSM edition of the WTC, edited by Donald Tovey, which is arguably the best and most authoritative “student” edition (it will have fingerings and ornament realisations – which of course you should take just as suggestions and starting points).

I have the ABRSM edition of some of Beethoven's sonatas, edited by Tovey. Is it a good edition overall?

[Pierre_Bezuhov]

I Have the ABRSM edition. It is very good.

[hodi]

i totally disagree with xvimbi
because you haven't played the piano for a long time, you may need fingerings and other marks.. you need to get the know the marks again if you forgot them..

[xvimbi]

i totally disagree with xvimbi
because you haven't played the piano for a long time, you may need fingerings and other marks.. you need to get the know the marks again if you forgot them..

Ehem, I said specifically that all these things should be worked out TOGETHER WITH THE TEACHER, rather than regurgitating something that may or may not work for George. I never intended to say that he should work it out completely on his own.
He obviously has a fingering already (which drives him crazy, as he said), so why should a different one be any better for him? Only way is to work it out for yourself. Concerning "other marks", yes, I agree, it would be great to have a good edition, but I assume that the teacher has sufficient material to fill in any blanks in this respect. That was not George's question anyway.

[allchopin]

Xvimbi, urtext does contain fingerings - it is not completely naked.

[xvimbi]

Xvimbi, urtext does contain fingerings - it is not completely naked.

OK, I see, I need to be really precise with what I am saying:

According to my initial post, I wrote "... recommend getting an Urtext version without fingerings and any other editorial stuff".

Perhaps, this is clearer: "... recommend getting an Urtext version that does not contain fingerings and any other editorial stuff".

Since this appears to cause so much confusion, I will try to clarify:

1. Fingering must be worked out on an individual basis.
2. Existing fingering should only be taken as a suggestion.
3. Consider the possibility that existing fingering has to be adapted, i.e. do not blindly follow what's been written by some editor.
4. For inexperienced people, working out the fingering is best done together with an experienced teacher.
5. There are Urtext versions without editorial markings.

For Bach: Beyond what has been said already, the editions by Willard Palmer are considered very good. They are however by no means the gold standard. In fact, many "Bach people" are horrified by his phrasing, to name just one aspect. Phrasing in Bach is often a personal matter. Rules exist, but they are often disputed and very rarely cast in stone. Same with some ornaments. That's why I think that the best way for an adult person to approach these pieces is with a fresh mind, guided by someone who knows Bach very well, but has an open mind regarding interpretation.

[Floristan]

Thank you, Bernard, for these links to two fascinating Bach websites!

I bought urtext (Henle) with fingering, but I've always felt free to develop my own fingering.  I can't ever read those tiny numbers anyway, so always end up writing in big fingering numbers of my own!

My teacher has also emphasized the wide range of opinion on phrasing and ornamentation in Bach.  He has some fairly specific ideas about articulation, is more liberal about phrasing, and says ornamentation is really an individual thing -- that in Bach's time it wasn't unusual for performers to "compete" with each other to see who could cram the most ornamentation in a piece -- really going for baroque (sorry, I couldn't resist).

[Sark1]

I dont post on this website much, and dont really read it much but sometimes i do.  I dont know how much of a pianist i am, becuase it seems like everyone on this site describes themselves as being great, so i guess im just ok.  I felt i should reply to this posting.  The urtext edition is generally the one used for Bach, (For example my Bach Partitas are urtext), but for the WTC, I use the edition by Mugellini.  I think its very good.

[rachlisztchopin]

i believe the dover edition is urtext and no fingering

[april]

gkatele -
welcome back to piano - I also came back after about 23 yrs away. It's been and interesting journey so far.
I have several different editions of the WTC, but I really like the Urtext. I just recently played the c-minor for a competition - it's a great piece.
xvimbi has some great points - I do a lot of finger figuring out on my own - sometimes by accident - just what feels comfortable and gets the job done. But I also rely on my teacher when I get stuck. We work thru a lot of stuff like that in my lessons. And sometimes something I like, he doesn't - so we negotiate (well sort-of, cuz he's usually right  )
Anyway, hang in there and just enjoy the process. I've learned a lot by coming here to the forum and reading various postings. It's great to have all these other musicians as resources!!

[richard w]

Forgive me for entering the fray - but I will stress that I'm not contradicting anyone else's post, just giving my views.  

If I had a choice between an edition with fingering and one without, I'd opt for the one with fingering. Why? First, I would have a head start with the piece. There is a good chance that at least some of the fingering would suit my hand, or the technical difficulty would be such that there would be little point finding an alternative, if one existed. Elsewhere, I would be at complete liberty to experiment and to change the fingering as I saw fit. But, even more compelling, there exists the possibility that I would find a fingering that I might not have tried on my own, but which I might well find a lot of merit in.

It might suit someone with plenty of experience to start from scratch, but for me the benefits of a pre-fingered edition seem to be more compelling (and I'm fairly competent, though not quite a pro). I suspect this would probably be the case for gkatele as well. He could go through each piece with his teacher, and find his own fingering, but why spend time doing this when he could focus on just the troublesome fingerings? A good teacher who knows the work ought to be able to isolate difficult areas from the outset, and it ought to become evident from listening to the student play where any further difficulties lie. Most important, however would be for the student to proceed with the flexibility to change the fingering if it does not suit.

Anyway, whichever edition gkatele opts for, those are the reasons why I would suggest one with a fingering.

By the way, I love the C minor one from book 1. I think my favourite is F minor, though. Then again, C sharp minor is pretty good too. So difficult to choose....



Oh, to answer the original question more specifically, I have ABRSM's edition and I'm very happy with it. But, it is the only edition I know.  



Richard.

[magnus-y]

Henle has Urtext, both fingered (vol. 1 and vol. 2) and no fingerings (vol.1 and vol. 2)

[faulty_damper]

After some practice, after having learned a few of these preludes and fougues, the fingering should become more natural and those fingering suggestions on the editions really become unneccessary.

This also applies to the ornamentation.  I personally find most ornamentation that has been written out rather unneccessary now.  However, when I first started learning what they meant, I found that it was rather useful.  Now when I see any kind of ornamentation written out, it's just extra clutter on the page and is a real eye sore.

[piano88]

Best way to get the best fingerings is to work them out yourself!!!!!!!!!!! The guy at Henle doesn't know your hands!
Allright, thats a tad pedantic, but I stick by it!
AD

[Rach3]

I always start with urtext, though [much] later I might refer to a pianist-editor's suggestions in another editon in case they have any insightful, effort-saving ideas. A professor I know [not my teacher] believes fingerings to be the most fundamental aspect of pianism - he has spend whole lessons with me on nothing but fingerings. Very useful actually... but then he is brilliant. For Bach I use Henle urtext without fingerings.

I've seen the Dover, it is supremely unreadable. A lot of it is written out like choral music, with the notestems indicating which voice the notes belong to... it reads very well for listening, but for a 'modern' pianist it seems a waste of effort. All other editions  I've seen 'modernize' the notation (I'm assuming Bach did in fact notate his fugues like in Dover?). Kalmus is also very good, or at least the half-century-old Kalmus that my teacher has.

[piano88]

There is a wonderful edition edited by Orlando Morgan but I suspect its out of print.
AD

[amanfang]

Does anyone like the Alfred edition edited by Palmer?  I think Vol. 2 just came out.

[Rach3]

Ah, so I was not hallucinating... I did in fact start an identical thread very recently! Look here for the scoop:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=f661b79db56b409be180a440cd47e721&topic=4623.0