Why are the greatest composers always men??

[thalbergmad]

although perhaps not the most apposite analogy, given that even you presumably accept that some women are as good at tennis as the best of male tennis players

No, I do not accept this and it would be moronic to do so.

The best female player could not live with any male in probably the top 600 if not more.

Thal

[ahinton]

It is until you cut all the crap and come up with a female composer of the same level as the male greats.

That's as maybe, but implicit in the question posed in the thread topic is the matter of whether women are incapable of such greatness (which is largely a matter of personal opinion anyway) or whether, as you suggest, we're still merely waiting for evidence of a great female composer; in the latter case, social demands, traditions and circumstances and the concomitant discouragement of women composers were clearly a negative factor for generations but this has gradually changed over recent decades and continues to do so.

In the absence of scientific evidence one way or the other, do you simply assume that women can't be as good as men at composition merely because you've seen no obvious evidence to the contrary or do you suspect that such scientific evidence will ultimately come to demonstrate that women are congenitally less capable than men in this field?

Best,

Alistair

[forte88]

I remember a transgender saying the biggest difference between being a woman and (now) a man is being more focussed. They say women are better at multitasking(or more scatterbrained to put it less  euphemistically), but I think to become a genius requires focus and dedication and perhaps a very competitive side as well. Perhaps there are women who can become a genius at something but they'll more than likely have male quantities of testosteron flowing thru their veins

[ahinton]

I remember a transgender saying the biggest difference between being a woman and (now) a man is being more focussed. They say women are better at multitasking(or more scatterbrained to put it less  euphemistically), but I think to become a genius requires focus and dedication and perhaps a very competitive side as well. Perhaps there are women who can become a genius at something but they'll more than likely have male quantities of testosteron flowing thru their veins

That's all very well, but it would not justify an assertion that women are less adept then men as composers whereas no one appears to be suggesting that they are so as performers.

Competitiveness per se is an obstruction for composers and performers; the only person with whom to compete is oneself.

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

What is the greatness of individual evolution, if greatness is achieved only in isolation and only by comparison to/in context of an entire species whose highest achievements are that of quickening itself to self-destruction with eyes wide open?

[thalbergmad]

do you suspect that such scientific evidence will ultimately come to demonstrate that women are congenitally less capable than men in this field?

Yes I do suspect this will eventually happen.

Some differences between the sexes are bloody obvious. Women cannot run as fast as men, throw javelins as far or drive a golf ball the same distance, nor will they ever. The difference in performance between female and male cyclists is huge and so It is with long distance running. Their archers are not as accurate, their dart players cannot live with the men and their cricketers would not compete with a Sunday second squad full of drunken 60 year olds. For some reason, they cannot ski as fast as men, slide on their arses down the Cresta run as fast as men, or even ride horses as fast as men.

Since composing does not require strength, stamina, accuracy, balance or poise, there must be reasons why female composers cannot be favourably compared with men.

Bollox

Thal

[forte88]

That's all very well, but it would not justify an assertion that why women are less adept then men as composers whereas no one appears to be suggesting that they are so as performers.

Competitiveness per se is an obstrution for compose and performers; the only person with whom to compete is oneself.

Best,

Alistair

Women pianists are actually at an advantage,  they have much better fingerdexterity than men, so if they applied themselves in the same way as men do they'd be much better. The fact that they're not only proves the point I was making
Anyway
Composing and performing are completely different skills that seems obvious to me
Competition drives men to strive harder. Think Lennon/McCartney

[ahinton]

their cricketers would not compete with a Sunday second squad full of drunken 60 year olds

But they did rather better than the men in Australia of late! - unless, of course, you think that Australian women are congenitally even more useless at cricket than British ones...

Since composing does not require strength, stamina, accuracy, balance or poise

It requires accuracy (albeit mental) and, when there are deadlines, stamina as well on occsion (albeit not that of the athlete or other physical sportsperson).

there must be reasons why female composers cannot be favourably compared with men.

If female instrumentalists are not affected in the same way as female composers, there must be a reason for that, too - but where would that leave women who did/do both, such as Gramatté, Bacewicz et al?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

But they did rather better than the men in Australia of late!

Yes, but they were competing against other women. Just because the English womens team did better than the mens team does not mean that they would win if the two competed against each other. The women would be humiliated every time.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

If female instrumentalists are not affected in the same way as female composers, there must be a reason for that, too - but where would that leave women who did/do both, such as Gramatté, Bacewicz et al?

Gramatte and Bacewicz might well be considered as great instrumentalists, but as composers they could not be considered great. Gramatte was generally lacking in ideas and Bacewicz composed a violin concerto that sounded like a cat playing with a bacon slicer.

Thal

[g_s_223]

ROFL - albeit unfair, but a wonderful image...

[Bob]

Another element.  There's variation in nature.  There's always going to be some mutation, wires crosses, yadda yadda yadda.... A female with a male brain.  Or a female with the parts of a male brain the male uses for composing.  But that would be the exception.  So the "in general..." trend would be what to look for.

If there is a 'feminine style' for composing, I've thought I've seen it in performance.  Good tone, good technique, but kind of meh for having bite to the performance.  Not bad to listen to, but not really going to for the effect of piece.   I remember thinking that in the audience a few times.

[Bob]

Another idea -- More on the society side.

Music evolves.  Things would happen regardless of write the piece.  If chromaticism grows, someone eventually writes a 12 tone piece. 

Society puts men in the position to write that piece.  So one of them writes the piece.

Add that to major developments in the music throughout history.  I'm not thinking of anything major happening since maybe the mid 20th century for serialism, etc.  and 12  tone events from around 1910.  When I think of the last fifty years, I wonder if women composers are on the same level as anyone else.  It's all the same to me.  And not many huge developments going on right now.

[g_s_223]

Just putting a word in for Debbie Wiseman, who writes great film scores, e.g. for Wilde:

[justanamateur]

I could listen to Beach or C Schumann all day, but can't stand more than five minutes of J Strauss Jr. 

[coda_colossale]

Evolution.

[ahinton]

Gramatte and Bacewicz might well be considered as great instrumentalists, but as composers they could not be considered great.

If your view is for the moment to be taken as gospel, how do you account for this conflict? Do you think that there is some physiological, mental, neuroscientific explanation for certain women being able to scale certain heights as performers that they supposedly cannot as composers?

Gramatte was generally lacking in ideas and Bacewicz composed a violin concerto that sounded like a cat playing with a bacon slicer.

When I had cats, I never let any of them near a bacon slicer (which was not difficult as I never possessed a bacon slicer) but, graphic and superficially amusing though your imagery here is, you omit to mention which of her seven violin concertos that you describe thus and why you perceive it as fitting such a bizarre description when presumably you would not accord similar descriptions to her other six...

Go listen to Bacewicz's Third Symphony!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Just putting a word in for Debbie Wiseman, who writes great film scores, e.g. for Wilde:

I do not care especially for what I've heard of Wiseman's music and I've encountered no concert works of hers, but she does have an undoubted talent for writing scores for films and television (and, for the avoidance of doubt, that is not meant to be any kind of patronising remark, since that sort of writing is a particular skill that is by no means open to every composer, regardless of gender).

Best,

Aistair

[thalbergmad]

you omit to mention which of her seven violin concertos that you describe thus and why you perceive it as fitting such a bizarre description when presumably you would not accord similar descriptions to her other six...

It was the 7th and after that, I had no desire to infest my ears with any more of her rubbish.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Go listen to Bacewicz's Third Symphony!

Sorry, but I have already exceeded my plinky listening total of 1 hour per week.

Besides, I have some Bax symphonies instead.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

If your view is for the moment to be taken as gospel, how do you account for this conflict?

I leave the boring million pages of analysis to those who are best qualified.

I have banjos to restring which is far more important.

Thal

[ahinton]

It was the 7th and after that, I had no desire to infest my ears with any more of her rubbish.

Thanks - but shame upon you! She didn't write rubbish!...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Sorry, but I have already exceeded my plinky listening total of 1 hour per week.

Besides, I have some Bax symphonies instead.

I still don't know what "plinky listening" is, but if you have Bax symphonies to listen to, then you're in for some real treats - 3 & 6 especially!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I still don't know what "plibnky listening" is,

It is the amount of time I allocate each week for listening to plinkers.

Thal

[Bob]

Just putting a word in for Debbie Wiseman, who writes great film scores, e.g. for Wilde:

Sounds nice.  I'd listen to it again.  I was going to say it sounds like movie music.  It doesn't have a big oomph to it, but that could be the musical need in the movie.

[ahinton]

It is the amount of time I allocate each week for listening to plinkers.

And as long as plinkers remain undefined, my remark stands!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Bedst,

On the Vino again??

Thal

[Bob]

It could be a secret code.  One method for injecting secret messages is to add extra letters in or leave certain letters out. 

The key letter there would be D.  Unless it's a distraction and it's signaling the words before or after, possibly with a number somewhere to indicate position....  Possibly even related to the thread reply number.... Quite devious....

[emill]

If one where to exclude the socio-cultural aspects during earlier times where women were "designated" to perform and limit themselves to certain spheres, like becoming bearers of children and good mothers, there is actually scientific evidence why men are better at certain fields and women at others.

"Men’s and women’s brains are fundamentally different, study finds, one better at focusing, one better at multitasking". The brains of men and women are hardwired differently which likely explains why.


Scientists found women are better at multi-tasking but men are better at concentrating on a single task after they scanned the brains of 949 people (men's brains, top, and women's brains, bottom). Undated handout photo issued by National Academy of Sciences of brain networks showing significantly increased within hemispheres in males (upper) and between hemispheres in females (lower)

COMPOSING music is generally considered a focused task while on the other hand below is definitely mutitasking!!!

[outin]

"Men’s and women’s brains are fundamentally different, study finds, one better at focusing, one better at multitasking". The brains of men and women are hardwired differently which likely explains why.

But you must understand that this is only a statistical finding, which will severily limit it's usefulness. Not to mention the limitations on the sample and the study methods, that have a high impact on the result as well. And since the brains studied have also already been transformed by environment, the differences may not really be "fundamental" in the sense one would usually think.

Many great composers were also great pianists and high level pianism clearly demands the ability to multitask. To be really talented in music probably requires both this and focuse, so maybe they were actually androgynes.

[ahinton]

On the Vino again??

No. On the typo again (and now duly corrected).

Best,

Alistair

[j_menz]

On the typo again

As Dracula was heard to say. 

[deidre]

Men have held women back for centuries. In the US, they had to struggle for the mere right to vote. It's not a wonder that men held them back in other areas of society, as well.

Anticipating a 'study' posted as a reply to my comment...whereby it determines that men are 'naturally' more gifted than women, in intelligence and musical prowess, and therefore that is why there are more male 'great' composers. 

[Bob]

Aren't we due for some female genius composers then?  Is there anything holding anyone back now?

[deidre]

Aren't we due for some female genius composers then?  Is there anything holding anyone back now?

lol Are you being flip?

Hmm. There are a number of talented and dare I say gifted female musicians from all genres, in today's culture. You may not find certain genres to your liking but their musical prowess most certainly speaks for itself.

[j_menz]

Aren't we due for some female genius composers then?  Is there anything holding anyone back now?

Umm, when's the last time you listened to anything by someone still alive and under 50 in the "classical" genre?

[Bob]

Most Euro white too.

The Euro guys got their first and took all the good developments in music.  It's just leftovers now (until something more happens with computers and music).




"Thanks a lot Wagner.  And what does this Liszt guy think he's doing?"






"But I wanted to write 12-tone music first.  Come on!"





If we put the blame on the old dead white Euro guys.... Everyone's pretty much off the hook now.  We already know Wagner was an ahole.  We can put more blame on him. 




*Bob waits for Nazi, Hitler, and alien comments.*

[Bob]

We could blame cave people.  Cave men were stronger than cave women and physically prevented them from composing.  Physical strength was more important up to the industrial revolution (Clara Schumann?).  Womens' Rights, invention of the cell phone, post it notes, etc.  Physical strength became less important.  So it's natural the topic comes up today.  But there's still room to grow.  Did you notice there's still no women's composing in this years Olympics?  Yep.  It's not there.  Go look.  No one's even talking about it, are they?


Hard to argue with logic like that.  

[deidre]

I guess sexism is in the mind of the beholder.

[bapdoo]

Well, back then, women were looked down apon, and even if they did write music, men would take the credit. I know that sounds horrible , but if you look it up, some of Mendelssohn's works were actually written by his sister Fanny because a women would be ridiculed for composing music. People didn't realize it was her music until a while later. (Correct me if I'm wrong about anything in this post.)

[thalbergmad]

some of Mendelssohn's works were actually written by his sister Fanny

Only the crap ones.

Thal

[j_menz]

Only the crap ones.

Thal

That's still a vast amount.

[ahinton]

In a bid to return to answering directly the question posed by the thread topic, I suggest that the reason why this would be the case (if it were the case) is perhaps that, like most people, composers don't like to keep changing their gender.

Best,

Alistair

[jknott]

I've just chanced on this topic, not having read it before.

I'm speechless at the blatant sexism displayed by some posters on this forum.  Something I naively thought was a feature of the past, but like the cold war it's still with us.

Why should a woman even bother to read the utter garbage you spout, much less post ourselves.  We should just leave you to your puerile fantasies of male supremacy.

[ahinton]

I've just chanced on this topic, not having read it before.

I'm speechless at the blatant sexism displayed by some posters on this forum.  Something I naively thought was a feature of the past, but like the cold war it's still with us.

Why should a woman even bother to read the utter garbage you spout, much less post ourselves.  We should just leave you to your puerile fantasies of male supremacy.

Whose? Not mine, that's for sure!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I have completely changed my mind after listening to some "works" by Thea Musgrave on Radio 3 today.

It was that good, not even a sponge could compose better. Male or female.

Thal

[g_s_223]

I think the BBC does women composers no favours by its PC agenda. Anyone with half a pair of ears knows who can do it and who can't.

[j_menz]

Anyone with half a pair of ears knows who can do it and who can't.

I'd have thought the oft times vigorous debates on this forum about the merits of particular composers would rather tell against you on that point. And that is evident tenfold when it comes to more contemporary composers.

[theholygideons]

Women's Rights?!  what's that?  never heard of it.

[ahinton]

I have completely changed my mind after listening to some "works" by Thea Musgrave on Radio 3 today.

It was that good, not even a sponge could compose better. Male or female.

Are you sure that what you have against her is that she's Scottish? She it was, incidentally, who said of being described as a "woman composer" that she is a woman and a composer but never both at the same time...

Best,

Alistair