Why are the greatest composers always men??

[danny_pianist]

Why there isn't a woman in this list?? Are men more musical geniuses?? Because women had less opportunities?? Has there been any girl musical prodigy in the time of classical composers?


 Bach
 Beethoven
 Brahms
 Chopin
 Dvorak
 Handel
 Haydn
 Liszt
 Mozart
 Rubinstein
 Schumann
 Johann Strauss
 Wagner
 Schubert
 Verdi
 Grieg
 Debussy
 Rachmaninoff
 Tchaikovsky
 Scriabin
 Ravel
 Gershwin
 Shostakovich
 R. Strauss
 Scarlatti
 Prokofiev
 Stravinsky
 Monteverdi
 Bartók

[awesom_o]

What about Lili Boulanger or Sofia Gubaidulina?

[mjames]

Because men are better duhhhhhhhhh hahahahah

No seriously look up Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn or Chaminade. There were plenty of female composers especially prodigies back in the day, it's just the they were looked down upon and as a result their music became obscure. Fun fact: Clara Schumann at the age of 9 actually managed to play Chopin's La Ci Darem La Mano variations which is also one of chopin's technical monsters, far harder than the etudes, polonaises, ballades and she only learnt in a few days. If she never married Robert she wouldn't have had to give up on composition for several decades (had to raise 8 kids, robert was mental etc), or she would've become a really fantastic composer.

Just to listen to the f major one...beautiful...

It was definitely about opportunity and stupid social norms. Just look at the 20th century, a shitload of female composers came out of nowhere!

[thalbergmad]

No seriously look up Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn or Chaminade.

Indeed, but they are still second raters compared to the list posted above.

Men are just better. Just as they are at reversing a car into a parking space. It has always been that will and it will always be that way.

Thal

[quantum]

Hildegard von Bingen

[faa2010]

I think there were women who could have been great composers if they had the chance.

You reminded me about an essay of Virginia Woolf "A Room for One's Own", where she explained how women were limited in the practice of things where men were praised, but the topic was related about writing in fiction: women who wrote it and how women appeared in fiction.

I hope I am in a mistake, but alas, the women who are recognized as performers, musicians, and composers in the past were at some point connected to the composers of the time: sisters, mothers, wives, students, etc. They were seen either as students of people with money or as a kind of support for the composer, as influences, muses.

Nowadays, it is more possible that a woman can be a composer, like Adele, without having someone behind her.

[sucom]

I don't think women throughout history have had much of a chance to do much at all and become known for it because women's role in society would not allow them to until the twentieth century.  A quick search on google just now reminded me that women around the 1500s who were a little clever, educated or well known could be labelled a witch and put to death!  And much later, women were not entitled to an education.  Until more recently, a woman's role was mainly to be a wife and mother.  So I'm not totally convinced that men are just 'better'.

Knowing that increased spatial awareness is due to an increased level of testosterone means that I am perfectly happy accepting that men are 'slightly' better ( ) at reverse parking than women.

[Bob]

Possibly the male brain being wired up for logical more.  If that's true.

Society -- Women probably weren't allowed to compose before.

Nature and nurture -- Possibly women choosing to go off in the mothering direction instead of the career direction.

[danny_pianist]

I knew there had to be women that composed classical music, but they are not nearly as famous as other men  composers 

  A quick search on google just now reminded me that women around the 1500s who were a little clever, educated or well known could be labelled a witch and put to death! 

What a lame society we had before us! At least it is a little better now 

[indianajo]

I don't know. My Mother & I were practically clones, I certainly didn't get a music gene from my Father.  But music runs through my head 24 hours a day, and she gave up playing piano to take up knitting which she could do while watching The Guiding Light soap opera on television.  She was certainly mathematical,  she progressed from pool secretary (with a secretarial school certificate) to computer programmer at the bank she worked at.  But music did not obsess her the way it does me.  If I'm not playing an instrument, I'm playing music on the radio or turntable or something, not soap operas. 
As far as good women composers, add Amy Beach. 
For the limitations of real life, look at JS Bach's second cousin, his wife.  She had about nine kids, there wasn't time to compose much. 

[j_menz]

There are a number of factors which probably explain the historical situation - lack of opportunity, encouragement, expectation and recognition chief among them.

The position of women (in the west) really only started to improve from the early twentieth century, and then only by degrees.

That would mean that any great women composers are likely to have been born after, say, 1930. Since most of you have trouble naming any composer, male or female, that fits that criteria, much less have actually played any of their works, how do you know how the women are faring lately? 

[Bob]

Could be promotion too.  Selling the whole idea of the composer, etc.   I imagine in the past more would favor men.  Purchasing music, supporting.

Or maybe it was similar to "butler."  If you have an estate, you get a butler.  Butlers are male.  Just bump that up to kingdom and the role of the composer.

[outin]

That would mean that any great women composers are likely to have been born after, say, 1930. Since most of you have trouble naming any composer, male or female, that fits that criteria, much less have actually played any of their works, how do you know how the women are faring lately?  

So right...I was recently watching a documentary of a prize winning female composer from Iceland and there's no way I could ever name her  

Which makes me think...almost all the great composers from history seem to have a quite easy-to-remember names... What if Bach was named Bacharitszithurian? Would he be as famous?

[mjames]

Grace Williamsssssss~~~~~~

[ahinton]

Indeed, but they are still second raters compared to the list posted above.

So you're saying - even if only by implication - that Clara Schumann was a second rater compared to Robert Schumann, who is on that list! Now there's a turn up for the books!

Men are just better. Just as they are at reversing a car into a parking space.

Leaving aside the questionable universality of such a claim, I'm still trying to figure out the supposed parallel between composing apiece of music and reversing a car into a parking space...

It has always been that will and it will always be that way.

Always, eh? So men were better at reversing cars into parking spaces in Bach's day just as they are now, yes?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

So men were better at reversing cars into parking spaces in Bach's day just as they are now, yes?...

Men were better at reversing horses in Bach's day.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

So you're saying - even if only by implication - that Clara Schumann was a second rater compared to Robert Schumann, who is on that list!

Yes, but only because she was infested with his bland romanticism which ruined her as a pianist and composer. Her piano concerto is one of the few that is actually worse than the Op.54 virus.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The only female composer that comes anywhere near some of the great men is Dora Pejacevic.

Her works can hold their own against some of the great romantics.

As for the modernists. A female plinker is no better or worse than a male plinker. Crap is crap, no matter who composes it.

Thal

[awesom_o]

As for the modernists. A female plinker is no better or worse than a male plinker. Crap is crap, no matter who composes it.

Thal

'tis true, I'm afraid. 

[thalbergmad]

Thank you for your support old chap.

Luv

Thal

[mjames]

DONT WORRY GUYS AND ESPECIALLY GIRLS

THE NEW MOZART IS HERE
AND SHES A GIRL WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[ahinton]

The only female composer that comes anywhere near some of the great men is Dora Pejacevic.

Her works can hold their own against some of the great romantics.

What of Ethel Smyth? Lili Boulanger? Elisabeth Maconchy? Grazyna Bacewicz? Thea Musgrave?...

As for the modernists. A female plinker is no better or worse than a male plinker.

But as long as the definition of "plinker" remains uncertain, it doesn't matter in any case!

Best,

Alistair

[awesom_o]

Lili Boulanger? Elisabeth Maconchy? Grazyna Bacewicz? Thea Musgrave?...
But as long as the definition of "plinker" remain uncertain, it doesn't mater in any case!

Best,

Alistair

Surely putting Thea Musgrave in the same category as Lili Boulanger is being slightly disrespectful to the dead, is it not?

Had the latter lived to the same ripe old age of the former, surely the OP wouldn't be asking this question in the first place!

The definition of 'plinker' will forever remain shrouded in subjectivity....  but I recommend the following modus operandi:

If it sounds anything close to as bad as your poo smells, stay well away from it!

[ahinton]

Surely putting Thea Musgrave in the same category as Lili Boulanger is being slightly disrespectful to the dead, is it not?

I wouldn't go tht far but I admit that it's being somewhat disproportionate!

Had the latter lived to the same ripe old age of the former, surely the OP wouldn't be asking this question in the first place!

I'm very much with you there; hers was a most extraordinary talent and imagination.

The definition of 'plinker' will forever remain shrouded in subjectivity....

I'd have hazarded a guess that it would be just shrouded, tout court...

but I recommend the following modus operandi:

If it sounds anything close to as bad as your poo smells, stay well away from it!

That's a modus operandus as there's (mercifully) only one of them! - but again, that would have to be subjective as well, so we're no farther forward...

J_menz got closest to this in referring to expectations; women have simply not, until recently been "expected" to become composers or even to want to do so. Times are fourtunately changing but, as they do so with painful slowness, it occurs to me that general public acceptance of women instrumentalists has long been greater than that of women composes and, in turn, even they fare better than women conductors - yet there's no evidence that women are preternaturally less cut out for any of these activities than men.

I wonder whether Thal thinks that women make less good banjo players than men. Doubtless he'll be along in a moment to tell us.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I wonder whether Thal thinks that women make less good banjo players than men. Doubtless he'll be along in a moment to tell us.

Of course, they are not as good. We have one really good woman banjo player in Cynthia Sayer and hundreds of great men, such as Moyses, Wachter, Bechtel, Frey, Abel, Plummer..................

Thal

[ahinton]

Of course, they are not as good. We have one really good woman banjo player in Cynthia Sayer and hundreds of great men, such as Moyses, Wachter, Bechtel, Frey, Abel, Plummer..................

I knew that you wouldn't let us down!

That said, though, would you acknowledge that there therefore appear to have been greater proportions of fine women cellists, pianists, violinists and so on widely recognised as such than there are or even have been women banjo players? And on what grounds would you account for this peculiar paucity of females in the banjo playing world? Do you, for example, believe that some musical instruments are better suited to women than others or the some are better suited to men than to women? If so, in either or both cases, perhaps you might like to tell us why you think so.

OK, the thread isn't about performers but composers - but then what of Sophie-Carmen Eckhart-Gramatté and Grazyna Bacewicz who were each distinguished violinists and pianists in addition to their activities as composers? - or, for the matter, Ruth Gipps, who was also and oboist, conductor and pianist besides being a composer? Do you think that any or all of them should have stuck to their performing activities and cast aside their compositional ones?

Best,

Alistair

[awesom_o]

Good points, Mr Hinton, and thank you for correcting me. I was never much good with the Latin!

I have argued this subject ad nauseum, ad infinitum with my wonderful girlfriend. She is a magnificent pianist who simply doesn't share my passion for composition and improvisation.

Society has certainly been most supportive toward female instrumentalists, less so to female conductors (same as many other leadership positions in politics and business), and even less so toward female composers!

It seems to me that their are particularly high numbers of excellent female cellists violinists. There have certainly been plenty of female pianists of the very highest caliber as well... Maria Yudina, Wanda Landowska, Myra Hess, Ruth Laredo, among dozens and dozens of others!

So...... the real question is.... is the admitted slight lack of Beethoven-level female composers mainly due to social constraints and lack of opportunity/appreciation?

Or does it have something to do with Original Sin or the fact that God made Adam out of His own image, thus imbuing him with creative power, while Eve was actually just made from some bone? A femur or something? Or was it a rib?

 



 




 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Hildegard of Bingen (though I'll admit I'm going by reputation here and am not familiar with her work).

Still it is an interesting issue, particularly as the percentage of perceived great female novelists is far higher.

[thalbergmad]

And on what grounds would you account for this peculiar paucity of females in the banjo playing world?

They are no bloody good at it. Simple as that.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Do you, for example, believe that some musical instruments are better suited to women than others or the some are better suited to men than to women? If so, in either or both cases, perhaps you might like to tell us why you think so.

Women probably make better cellists as they can open their legs further.

Thal

[awesom_o]

I'm sadly ignorant of the banjo world... but I certainly can't think of very many virtuoso female guitar players.


Maybe women just aren't as hungry for fame and recognition as men tend to be?

[thalbergmad]

OK, the thread isn't about performers but composers - but then what of Sophie-Carmen Eckhart-Gramatté and Grazyna Bacewicz who were each distinguished violinists and pianists in addition to their activities as composers? - or, for the matter, Ruth Gipps, who was also and oboist, conductor and pianist besides being a composer? Do you think that any or all of them should have stuck to their performing activities and cast aside their compositional ones?

But we are (supposed) to be talking about GREAT composers. None of those you mention can be considered great.

Thal

[awesom_o]

Tuba and double bass are not very womanly.

The flute, however, is!

The contra-bassoon is particularly unfeminine.

But the Celeste has a lovely ladylike sound!

Men really shouldn't play the harp.

 

[thalbergmad]

Men really shouldn't play the harp.
 

Nobody seems to have ever told Elias Parish-Alvars.

Thal

[mikeowski]

That's a modus operandus as there's (mercifully) only one of them!

Actually the plural of modus operandi is modi operandi. Operandi means "of operating".

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I'm sadly ignorant of the banjo world... but I certainly can't think of very many virtuoso female guitar players.

Jennifer Batten and, uh, The "Great" (sic) Kat. 

Men really shouldn't play the harp.

My life would have been poorer without Harpo Marx

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Actually the plural of modus operandi is modi operandi. Operandi means "of operating".

True. Operandi is the genitive case, if I remember rightly.

[thalbergmad]

There are probably more female composers around nowadays than there were in previous centuries, because it takes no skill to compose atonal crap.

Romantic and classical music requires a fertile imagination and the ability to transfer that onto the score. Any twonk can carelessly chuck notes onto blank manuscript paper and call it a composition.

Thal

[ahinton]

They are no bloody good at it. Simple as that.

But why do you suppose that is? (assuming that your assessment is correct)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Women probably make better cellists as they can open their legs further.

Who says that they can? Even if true, why in any case would that give them an advantage? There's rather more to cello playing than merely accommodating the instrument, after all!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Nobody seems to have ever told Elias Parish-Alvars.

Indeed - or Ossian Ellis! Either that or neither of them took any notice.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Men were better at reversing horses in Bach's day.

I'd not realised that you were there - but not into parking spaces, surely?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Actually the plural of modus operandi is modi operandi. Operandi means "of operating".

I know - but the example here was singular.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

There are probably more female composers around nowadays than there were in previous centuries, because it takes no skill to compose atonal crap.

Nonsense! Yes, there are undoubtedly more female composers around today, but not everyone writes crap and not everyone writes atonally either, irrespective of gender.

Romantic and classical music requires a fertile imagination

And you reckon that women in general have fertility problems, right?

and the ability to transfer that onto the score. Any twonk can carelessly chuck notes onto blank manuscript paper and call it a composition.

"Twonk"? "Plink"? The technical vocabulary as illustrated in the Oxford Thaleban Dictionary is unique, for sure. But even taking your statement at such face value as it has, it is hardly gender specific!

Oh and, by the way, do try to listen to works such as the Eckhardt-Gramatté piano sonatas played by Marc-André Hamelin and Bacewicz's Third Symphony and some of her seven violin concertos before sounding off about women composers and what they're capable of achieving!

Best,

Alistair

[indianajo]

Great Female composers still living: Carol King, Charlotte Caffee, Grace Slick Debbie Harry Recently deceased Eleanor Greenwich
Great female guitar player recently deceased: Sister Rosetta Tharp. Her stylistic  followers probably include Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy, Eric Clapton, Les Paul  ie the whole pop electric guitar world.

[m1469]

They were seen either as students of people with money or as a kind of support for the composer, as influences, muses.

Nowadays, it is more possible that a woman can be a composer, like Adele, without having someone behind her.

Who has ever accomplished anything without somebody else being somehow involved?  Neither a man nor a woman plays a concerto alone.  Neither a man nor woman attends a school without teachers and peers, as well as some kind of funding from somewhere.  A performer does not perform without an audience.  People do not live in vacuums and they certainly do not touch the world by doing so.

[ahinton]

Who has ever accomplished anything without somebody else being somehow involved?  Neither a man nor a woman plays a concerto alone.  Neither a man nor woman attends a school without teachers and peers, as well as some kind of funding from somewhere.  A performer does not perform without an audience.  People do not live in vacuums and they certainly do not touch the world by doing so.

Sure, but I don't think that this is quite the point that was being made. "No man is an island" indeed - and, by implication, no woman is one either - but the question as to why it is that so few women composers have impinged upon the consciousness of listeners to Western "classical" music until relatively recently clearly centres around socio-political issues and those of general expectation rather than on innate ability and/or motivation; this is surely obvious from the rise of women composers in recent times and it would surely be an illogical assumption in any case that women could be great performers but not great composers.

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

Sure, but I don't think that this is quite the point that was being made.

I realize it's not the "point" being made by the supposed topic.  It was the skirting point that was made in the post that I quoted and responded to.  Other than that, I find it difficult to believe this topic (again) is being seriously discussed.

[ahinton]

I realize it's not the "point" being made by the supposed topic.

I know!

It was the skirting point that was made in the post that I quoted and responded to.

I know that, too; I just didn't read that in the way that you evidently did, that's all!

Other than that, I find it difficult to believe this topic (again) is being seriously discussed.

Moi aussi! One might as well ask why the greatest men are always composers, or something. It nevertheless seems that some people will discuss anything here, irrespective of the mileage in the topic itself or the number of times it might already have been discussed previously; one has only to look at all those wearisome and pointless "hardest piece" threads to realise that!

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

It nevertheless seems that some people will discuss anything here, irrespective of the mileage in the topic itself or the number of times it might already have been discussed previously;

And, as I'm sure you also realize, I am referring more to the (lack of) substance which is supposedly qualifying it as a discussion.