Need help with these Octave runs

[rjgrech]

The fingering in this part is quite tough any suggestions I can easily do it with a typical 1 5 octave technique but its not what written and it does not flourish as much.

[j_menz]

What do you mean "does not flourish as much"?

If you prefer to do it 1-5 all the way, go ahead if it works. The fingering on the score is a suggestion only.

If, however, the lack of flourish is a lack of speed or tone control, then that is another matter entirely. "Works" means works on all levels.

[rjgrech]

by flourish i basically mean that it doesn't have a sort of blooming affect that zimerman and rubinstein produce. they follow the scored fingering. so I thought Id try the same and compare the two but the stretches are taxing and laborious. the whole 5 4 5 3 4 5

[michaeljames]

I use both hands for that particular run in Chopin's 3rd Ballade. 

Michael

[j_menz]

If it's the 1-3 that's the problem, you could try 545455.

If the 1-4 is also a problem, you will have to go with 1-5 all the way . Maybe the lightest of pedal - though since I don't know what piece it's from that may be inappropriate.  

In any case, make sure you mark and shape the crescendo - experiment a bit, maybe at a slower speed at first - for that is where the "blooming" lies.

[chopinfrederic]

In my opinion, using 1-5 all the way through is easier. You should start very slow and gradually increase your speed.

[perfect_pitch]

What do you mean "does not flourish as much"?

If you prefer to do it 1-5 all the way, go ahead if it works. The fingering on the score is a suggestion only.

Erm... WRONG! If you prefer to do it 1-5 all the way, then you're not playing it properly. It has a slur over all the notes - therefore you need to play it as smoothly as possible. If you wish to play it properly then you HAVE to do the fingering written over the music.

In my opinion, using 1-5 all the way through is easier. You should start very slow and gradually add your speed.

It might be easier, but it's wrong.

[cabbynum]

Erm... WRONG! If you prefer to do it 1-5 all the way, then you're not playing it properly. It has a slur over all the notes - therefore you need to play it as smoothly as possible. If you wish to play it properly then you HAVE to do the fingering written over the music.

It might be easier, but it's wrong.

You can get away with 54 instead of 53
All though it's easier to use 53

[faulty_damper]

Erm... WRONG! If you prefer to do it 1-5 all the way, then you're not playing it properly. It has a slur over all the notes - therefore you need to play it as smoothly as possible. If you wish to play it properly then you HAVE to do the fingering written over the music.

It might be easier, but it's wrong.

No.  You're WRONG! 

It doesn't matter the fingering you choose since it's pedaled throughout.  Legato is a sound quality, not a technical one.

[cabbynum]

No.  You're WRONG! 

It doesn't matter the fingering you choose since it's pedaled throughout.  Legato is a sound quality, not a technical one.

I'm gonna disagree here. Not too a huge extant but I do disagree a bit with what you are saying.
Legato is based from a technique and comes out as a different sound. You can't have legato without the legato technique.

[thalbergmad]

If you can't play legato without pedal, then give up Chopin. This needs to be played with the fingering as written.

Learn the nocturne Op.9 No.1 first and then come back to this.

Thal

[faulty_damper]

I'm gonna disagree here. Not too a huge extant but I do disagree a bit with what you are saying.
Legato is based from a technique and comes out as a different sound. You can't have legato without the legato technique.

This is still wrong.  You don't need to finger as written to sound legato.  Proof: 1-1-1-1-1-1.  Let's hear you play that "legato" without pedal.

[thalbergmad]

Proof: 1-1-1-1-1-1.  Let's hear you play that "legato" without pedal.

The thumb needs to play softly with the accent on the notes an octave higher. This is pretty basic stuff.

The pedal can be a mask for poor legato and it is best practised without.

Thal

[pianoplunker]

This is still wrong.  You don't need to finger as written to sound legato.  Proof: 1-1-1-1-1-1.  Let's hear you play that "legato" without pedal.

That is a great point and a great excersize for breaking it down to the weakest link which is the thumb.  Also breaking out the upper fingering, 545345 is far more efficient than 555555. Little leaps lead to wrong notes. The suggested fingering avoids the leaps  for the upper note. Cant avoid the thumb leaping a little but it can be practiced to a legato. I think if you practice one finger at a time it will help sort it out

[swagmaster420x]

what bpm is this played at?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It should be played as fingered, keeping the hand as close to the keys as possible. If necessary start by practising the fingering top line on its own, half-speed and without pedal. You can fake the passage with 15 and pedal, but it will sound slightly different because you're playing with a staccato touch, not a legato one. Also it is far easier to control and shape the sound if playing legato as the notes are less disconnected.

[perfect_pitch]

It doesn't matter the fingering you choose since it's pedaled throughout.  Legato is a sound quality, not a technical one.

This is wrong for 2 reasons...

Legato is based from a technique and comes out as a different sound. You can't have legato without the legato technique.

1) Granted that in some pieces, pedal is used to join the sound if it is physically impossible to sustain the sound without it, but this is not the case in this section of music.

If you can't play legato without pedal, then give up Chopin. This needs to be played with the fingering as written.

The pedal can be a mask for poor legato and it is best practised without.

2) There is no pedal in the last dotted crotchet beat of that bar. The pedal clearly states that it is to be lifted up on the quaver preceding it, and then only put down again in the next bar.

[pianoman53]

There is more to a slur than just meaning Legato. He writes slurs over rests very often, which wouldn't make sense if it was only about legato.

If you can't play it legato, you can't. It's not like the legato as such is more important than phrasing. Many times, non legato might even sound more legato, because of the superior phrasing.

[nyiregyhazi]

There is more to a slur than just meaning Legato. He writes slurs over rests very often, which wouldn't make sense if it was only about legato.

If you can't play it legato, you can't. It's not like the legato as such is more important than phrasing. Many times, non legato might even sound more legato, because of the superior phrasing.

If you can phrase it at a reasonable speed with a non-legato fingering, you ought to upload evidence. Otherwise, there's no good reason to look at it as anything other than a poor amateur hour solution. It's too fast for the tenuto approach to work here. Either the notes will be banged/badly clipped with no melodic clarity, or the tempo will grind to a halt in order to enable proper articulation and tonal control. Non-legato and legato can be virtually interchangeable when there is time to connect clearly and precisely to each octave. At the speeds required here, however, it's not gonna happen.

There are only two relevant options here. Either play it with a legato fingering (the trick is to practise the thumb notes staccato first, in order to connect clearly and simply to the top without getting burdened by excessive down force on either finger) or play it with two hands. Anyone who seriously thinks a run of non legato fingering can work can start by uploading evidence that it can work for them in this situation. A seasoned virtuoso would struggle to make a phrase out of such an inappropriate fingering, within this particular instance.


PS. Rests in phrases are an instruction not to connect the notes on either side. There would be no point in including a rest in the middle of the phrase mark if the notes weren't meant to be connected up elsewhere. If anything, the odd rest within a phrase mark actively reinforces the importance of legato as to the norm within phrase marks- otherwise it would be as good as meaningless to use rests (which show the exceptions). Regardless, the meaning of such a short phrase mark is beyond question here. Legato is an illusion, but it's not one that happens when you use a poor fingering that doesn't fit the musical requirements.

[j_menz]

Erm... WRONG! If you prefer to do it 1-5 all the way, then you're not playing it properly. It has a slur over all the notes - therefore you need to play it as smoothly as possible. If you wish to play it properly then you HAVE to do the fingering written over the music.

It might be easier, but it's wrong.

Don't selectively quote. I said "if it works" and explained that qualification.

Whether the suggested fingering is desirable or not is one matter, but if you can't actually reach it then another will have to be found regardless.

[nyiregyhazi]

Don't selectively quote. I said "if it works" and explained that qualification.

Whether the suggested fingering is desirable or not is one matter, but if you can't actually reach it then another will have to be found regardless.

It needs a lot more than a mere "if" in these situations. Give an ounce of support for something that seems easier (but which is overwhelmingly more difficult when properly appreciated), and very few pianists will succeed in listening objectively enough to appreciate whether the results actually work or not, on a deeper musical level.

All you need here is an octave span. Even most small hands would at least have an octave between 1 and 4 if not 1 and 3. Only descending octaves require so much as a 9th for true legato. The issue is almost certainly incorrect use of technique. The solution is to pay more attention to legato in the top (and to learn to brush across the thumb so the arm is free to align properly for each connection) not to ignore legato. It would take a rare pianist indeed to either pull off your "if" or to be incapable of connecting 4s and 5s in octaves due to small hand issues (which would be the only reason to excuse non-legato).

[lelle]

by flourish i basically mean that it doesn't have a sort of blooming affect that zimerman and rubinstein produce. they follow the scored fingering. so I thought Id try the same and compare the two but the stretches are taxing and laborious. the whole 5 4 5 3 4 5

You could just split the octave run between both hands so the left hand plays the lower part and the right hand plays the upper part, which sounds a lot better anyway because it allows you to play it much faster and with more grace. It's "customary" to do this according to an old edition I have and it's also what Zimerman does in the video of him playing this piece on Youtube. 

[perfect_pitch]

Don't selectively quote. I said "if it works" and explained that qualification.

Yeah? You also said 'and I quote':

If you prefer to do it 1-5 all the way, go ahead if it works. The fingering on the score is a suggestion only.

But that shouldn't have been said - it doesn't work, and the fingering on the score is NOT a suggestion. I have hands smaller than the average guy and yet, even I can make that fingering work (it's a pain, but I can play it), and I can barely reach a 10th.

[j_menz]

Yeah? You also said 'and I quote':

But that shouldn't have been said - it doesn't work, and the fingering on the score is NOT a suggestion. I have hands smaller than the average guy and yet, even I can make that fingering work (it's a pain, but I can play it), and I can barely reach a 10th.

All fingering on scores is only a suggestion. Some are more compelling than others, and I am not disputing that this one is a good suggestion. However, an ability to reach a tenth means you have larger hands than some. If one cannot reach an octave 1-3, then the fingering suggested, whatever its merits, is simply unworkable and needs slight modification. If one can't reach an octave 1-4 then it needs radical revision.

[outin]

I have hands smaller than the average guy and yet, even I can make that fingering work (it's a pain, but I can play it), and I can barely reach a 10th.

People who can reach a tenth should not comment on issues with small hands 

If there's not enough physical reach, the options are: Don't play the piece at all, split if possible or accept that you cannot produce exactly what is written. Will the latter ruin the whole piece for a listener? Probably not unless on PS 

[perfect_pitch]

Will the latter ruin the whole piece for a listener? Probably not unless on PS 

Or if you're playing for a competition, or an exam, or your teacher has high expectations about their musical standards.

[outin]

Or if you're playing for a competition, or an exam, or your teacher has high expectations about their musical standards.

I which cases I doubt the person needs to/should ask for advice here 

[michaeljames]

You could just split the octave run between both hands so the left hand plays the lower part and the right hand plays the upper part, which sounds a lot better anyway because it allows you to play it much faster and with more grace. It's "customary" to do this according to an old edition I have and it's also what Zimerman does in the video of him playing this piece on Youtube. 

Thank you! I mentioned several posts back that is how I execute that run and got no response! haha  I've played this for three of my coaches and they've all loved it.  And, I am capable of playing it as written...but to execute it best, two hands works the best for me.

Again, thank you!

[liszt1022]

My professor in college split it between hands.
Get yourself to Youtube and do a comparison between various video performances to see what other people have done. Make sure you try to listen to the differences in sound between the methods, and I think if you see a pianist use
55555
11111
it's likely not be shaped well.

[pianoman53]

N- where did I say anything about tenuto? All I said was that a slur is more than legato.

[slobone]

Just tried it at the keyboard -- 54545454 works best for me, but I have a pretty good reach with my hand. And as mentioned, just slither along the keys with the thumb.

Edit: trying it again, it's actually the thumb I'm having the most trouble with. Coming down from a black key to a white key, I can do a reasonable simulation of legato, but the other way around sounds clunky. Any suggestions?

[thalbergmad]

I am not very good as explaining things, but on the way up, try to use the tip of your thumb on the white key then near the ball on the black.

If you have a good reach, you can keep up your slithering throughout.

If this is a crap way of doing it, then I humbly retire. It is best to ignore everything I say.

Thal

[cabbynum]

I am not very good as explaining things, but on the way up, try to use the tip of your thumb on the white key then near the ball on the black.

If you have a good reach, you can keep up your slithering throughout.

If this is a crap way of doing it, then I humbly retire. It is best to ignore everything I say.

Thal

Any of the fingering works without pedal as long as you don't use 15 the whole time and even then if you go quick enough it gives an illusion of slur

Listen to zimmerman play it. Not much slurred but it's very obvious that it's together and one statement and I think that's more important here.

[nyiregyhazi]

N- where did I say anything about tenuto? All I said was that a slur is more than legato.

If it's neither legato nor tenuto (ie held) it is therefore staccato. Totally unacceptable. Only when there is time for tenuto can legato illusions be performed. When octaves are melodic, they require distinction of every tone. The only way to get that without legato is tenuto touch. Anything else compensated for by pedal is a mess. But the style of writing here doesn't allow enough time for articulated tenuto. It's a salon flourish, not a declamatory statement that can be executed slowly enough to be phrased via completely separate contacts.

[myhandssing]

The fingering in the score is ideal for legato, so long as you can stretch a 13.
I think you're question should be, how do I strengthen or align the fingers in a way that they can actually cope with such fingering? I am personally not going to answer this question on a forum, you need a live teacher to instruct you on aligning the bones of your fingers and finding your natural arch when playing octaves.

[pianoman53]

To say that there is nothing between staccato and tenuto just shows lack of understanding. Also, that was not my point (as usual, you take a very small piece, pyt it out of context, and claim that the other one is wrong). My point was, if one has to struggle with legato, it won't sound very legato, because of the lack phrasing. In cases like that, non legato is usually the better option. The best is obviously to play it with perfect legato, but not everyone are able to okay octaves with 1-4.

[nyiregyhazi]

To say that there is nothing between staccato and tenuto just shows lack of understanding. Also, that was not my point (as usual, you take a very small piece, pyt it out of context, and claim that the other one is wrong). My point was, if one has to struggle with legato, it won't sound very legato, because of the lack phrasing. In cases like that, non legato is usually the better option. The best is obviously to play it with perfect legato, but not everyone are able to okay octaves with 1-4.

Yes, the whole problem is that you are taking what is USUALLY pertinent and misapplying it in a specific situation where circumstances render it unworkable.

Who said there is nothing been tenuto and staccato in general? In THIS PASSAGE the notes are either held or not. Tenuto means held. If they are held at all it is too slow with 15. If they are not held even for a brief instant, they are by definition a very short staccato indeed, in order to reach the next octave. The fact that the passage is played softly makes it harder still. The only way not to play staccato is to slow the tempo or to physically join the top (so the holding introduces no delay between notes).

Instead of speaking in a theoretical world, I suggest you try your own advice. If it works at proper tempo and with a phrase, upload the results. There's no value in assertion that something can work unless you can make it. Otherwise, it's mere speculation from a place of inexperience - which hardly makes it worth defending to the hilt there is nothing worth discussing until you actually try out your own advice and consider the real world results seriously.

PS the issue of practicality is irrelevant as you can use two hands. 15 is plan C at best.

[pianoman53]

You don't read what I write, do why bother with this?

[nyiregyhazi]

You don't read what I write, do why bother with this?

Anything you wrote was irrelevant - because you're in a world of speculative theory, that is being misapplied to a context where it does not work. There's nothing to discuss unless you'd like to go to a piano and actually try the passage under discussion - rather than speak in terms that are only applicable to more general situations. 15 is fine for slower melodies where you have time to hold each tone and control it before release and it's fine for virtuoso octaves which do not require an impression of legato. It's not fine for a rapid melodic flourish that must be shaped within a very soft dynamic, without time to connect clearly and precisely to each note. If you feel otherwise, the only way to show that your opinion is anything but untested, hypothetical hot air is to provide evidence that you can phrase this passage with 15.


PS. You ought to read what Neuhaus wrote about non legato touch for legato sound. He stated that it's fine IF you have first connected clearly to each tone, with no hurry to snatch away from the note. Neuhaus hit the nail on the head there. This passage does not allow that clear connection due to time constraints, which is why it would take a truly staggering feat of technical prowess to be achieving necessary lightness speed and phrase shape with a 15 fingering.

[pianoman53]

I DON'T CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nyiregyhazi]

I DON'T CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't care about what works in this particular passage, perhaps you should ask yourself whether it was wise to give untested advice to an OP who clearly does care about it? Personally I do care enough to want to ensure that he doesn't make the mistake of taking a "solution" that seems easier on a very superficial level, yet would render a suitably musical rendition quite impossible.

Anyway, if you'd rather take this into the playground than stop to think about where non-legato touch does and doesn't work, it's best if we leave it there.

[pianoman53]

For fukc sake! I take it really down to idiot level now, so that you might be able to get it.

If the pianist can't play it legato (not only in this specific passage) but have an idiot teacher like you, who only is interested in being right, and get forced to play legato, it will not sound legato. It will sound tensed and badly phrased. (If you still think I tell him to play staccato, you can stop reading, and not even bother to reply.)
It cases like that, where real legato is NOT possible (NOT IN THIS PASSAGE, >>>NOTE<<< NOT IN THIS SPECIFIC PASSAGE), a non legato touch will sound better.

I write it all again, so you might be able to understand, since you clearly are 3 years old, and can't quite read yet.

If a pianist can't play legato, because of that his or her hands are too small *NOT IN THIS PASSAGE, BUT IN PASSAGES SIMILAR TO THIS*, real legato will sound nothing but sloppy and tensed. In cases like that **WHEN THE PIANIST'S HANDS ARE TOO SMALL FOR OCTAVE LEGATO** It's better to focus to make the phrasing correct, and in that way compensate for the lack of real legato.


In Schumann and Liszt, there are many cases like that. Also in Chopin *NOT NECESSARILY THIS ONE*
Go to any international competition and find all the asian girls, who barely can reach and octave, and listen how they make things sound like legato.

I'm so incredibly fed up with the way you're arguing. You're the one who brings it to the playground, you're the one who cares more about being right than helping the OP, you're the one who can start an argument out of nothing and gets a whole topic closed because of your stupidity and extreme lack of seeing things differently. I'm not interested in talking to you. Don't reply to what I write, don't bother commenting in threads I start.

Enjoy never listening and enjoy never learning.

[nyiregyhazi]

For fukc sake! I take it really down to idiot level now, so that you might be able to get it.

If the pianist can't play it legato (not only in this specific passage) but have an idiot teacher like you, who only is interested in being right, and get forced to play legato, it will not sound legato. It will sound tensed and badly phrased. (If you still think I tell him to play staccato, you can stop reading, and not even bother to reply.)
It cases like that, where real legato is NOT possible (NOT IN THIS PASSAGE, >>>NOTE<<< NOT IN THIS SPECIFIC PASSAGE), a non legato touch will sound better.

I write it all again, so you might be able to understand, since you clearly are 3 years old, and can't quite read yet.

If a pianist can't play legato, because of that his or her hands are too small *NOT IN THIS PASSAGE, BUT IN PASSAGES SIMILAR TO THIS*, real legato will sound nothing but sloppy and tensed. In cases like that **WHEN THE PIANIST'S HANDS ARE TOO SMALL FOR OCTAVE LEGATO** It's better to focus to make the phrasing correct, and in that way compensate for the lack of real legato.


In Schumann and Liszt, there are many cases like that. Also in Chopin *NOT NECESSARILY THIS ONE*
Go to any international competition and find all the asian girls, who barely can reach and octave, and listen how they make things sound like legato.

I'm so incredibly fed up with the way you're arguing. You're the one who brings it to the playground, you're the one who cares more about being right than helping the OP, you're the one who can start an argument out of nothing and gets a whole topic closed because of your stupidity and extreme lack of seeing things differently. I'm not interested in talking to you. Don't reply to what I write, don't bother commenting in threads I start.

Enjoy never listening and enjoy never learning.

Obviously you missed the various times I repeated that you can use two hands.

Take your tedious egotistical vitriol elsewhere. 15 doesn't work for fast quiet octaves that are phrased- which is the nature of the passage you argued it would be fine within. If you feel it does, upload yourself proving it possible-to show that the OP should consider it. Otherwise, put your ego aside and consider whether the OP will be any more capable of achieving an effective result than you are,within the actual passage where you supported a fingering that is unfit for purpose. The alternative situations that you are suddenly bringing up have nothing do to do with the situation being discussed in this thread. This thread is about giving pertinent advice to the the person that asked for it on a particular passage. It's not here for you to throw a tedious hissy fit, because you're too proud to back down from what was simply terrible advice.

PS this thread was about a specific passage, but a pianist whose hand is so small that they cannot physically reach an octave with the fourth finger on the major 7th (which is all you need here) should simply stay away from pieces that have fast legato octaves in general until they have developed basic flexibility. Such a rare hand will just strain itself unless it first learns to cover such intervals with comfort. Forcing such passages with amateurish fingerings will not make them work, if the technique is not ready to cope with the demands. It will simply make a mess. Slower melodic octaves are a separate issue (which neither my comments nor the thread was pertaining to, regardless of what you might wish to retrospectively portray) and must be correctly treated as such.

[pianoman53]

Hint, someone in this forum is the mule. The rest of us aren't.

[faulty_damper]

Hint, someone in this forum is the mule. The rest of us aren't.

*Please don't make insults on this forum.  It really isn't appreciated.*

According to the Peter's New Urtext edition of this Chopin Ballade, there are no fingerings marked.  This probably means that the score in the OP's post was edited and most definitely not by Chopin.

Some points:
1. the octave flourish is fast but isn't that fast, thus
2. any fingering could do, including splitting the hands.

[nyiregyhazi]

*Please don't make insults on this forum.  It really isn't appreciated.*

According to the Peter's New Urtext edition of this Chopin Ballade, there are no fingerings marked.  This probably means that the score in the OP's post was edited and most definitely not by Chopin.

Some points:
1. the octave flourish is fast but isn't that fast, thus
2. any fingering could do, including splitting the hands.

Not "that fast"? Are you serious? A reasonable tempo is around one dotted crotchet per second. That means the group of eight would be eight octaves per second. Can you even punch out an octave major scale at this" Not that fast" speed, let alone either phrase it or go significantly faster? I've played the Liszt 6th rhapsody plenty and I certainly can't fit that bar in time without resorting to two hands. Either you have octaves to rival Horowitz and Katsaris or you've made a major misjudgement about the actual demands involved here.

Obviously there can be some freedom, but if you linger for enough to make a true phrase from octaves via non legato then you have to rush the obvious "breath" that follows in order not to turn the bar into a complete dirge. I have to play the octaves to my absolute limit in order to be able to do the breath without breaking the momentum and I'm still notably prolonging the beat right up towards the limits of what taste allows. At that speed, any sense of significant dynamic control is out the window, unless I link with finger legato. regardless of whether Chopin wrote a fingering, his phrase and dynamic mark demand respect. It's either anti-melodic staccato with 15 or finger legato. Nothing else is possible without making outrageous abuse of the limits of rubato.

Seriously, anyone arguing that 15 is possible with a genuine sense of phrase needs to either upload evidence of themself personally proving it or point us to a film of a pianist playing it effectively that way. I don't presume my personal limits to represent the outright upper limit of what is pianistically possible, but unless anyone who says 15 works on a musical level can put their money where their mouth is, I'm certainly not trusting their word for it. Words are too easy. Achieving a genuine musical result with what might superficially seem "easier" than a legato fingering is not.

Nobody has any excuse for blaming inability to do finger legato with 45 on their hand, unless they have an outrageously small hand that probably wouldn't be ready to manage octaves properly with 15 anyway. It's a matter of having the patience to learn suitable technique to fit an essential musical purpose, or simply giving up at the drop of a hat and resorting to a dead end fingering that actually makes the result significantly harder to pull off.

[perfect_pitch]

According to the Peter's New Urtext edition of this Chopin Ballade, there are no fingerings marked.  This probably means that the score in the OP's post was edited and most definitely not by Chopin.

Some points:
1. the octave flourish is fast but isn't that fast, thus
2. any fingering could do, including splitting the hands.

3) If you're a good enough pianist, you should be able to work out the fingering required. They don't necessarily finger everything, but given the repertoires standard, shouldn't need to put that much fingering in.

[cabbynum]

Not "that fast"? Are you serious? A reasonable tempo is around one dotted crotchet per second. That means the group of eight would be eight octaves per second. Can you even punch out an octave major scale at this" Not that fast" speed, let alone either phrase it or go significantly faster? I've played the Liszt 6th rhapsody plenty and I certainly can't fit that bar in time without resorting to two hands. Either you have octaves to rival Horowitz and Katsaris or you've made a major misjudgement about the actual demands involved here.

Obviously there can be some freedom, but if you linger for enough to make a true phrase from octaves via non legato then you have to rush the obvious "breath" that follows in order not to turn the bar into a complete dirge. I have to play the octaves to my absolute limit in order to be able to do the breath without breaking the momentum and I'm still notably prolonging the beat right up towards the limits of what taste allows. At that speed, any sense of significant dynamic control is out the window, unless I link with finger legato. regardless of whether Chopin wrote a fingering, his phrase and dynamic mark demand respect. It's either anti-melodic staccato with 15 or finger legato. Nothing else is possible without making outrageous abuse of the limits of rubato.

Seriously, anyone arguing that 15 is possible with a genuine sense of phrase needs to either upload evidence of themself personally proving it or point us to a film of a pianist playing it effectively that way. I don't presume my personal limits to represent the outright upper limit of what is pianistically possible, but unless anyone who says 15 works on a musical level can put their money where their mouth is, I'm certainly not trusting their word for it. Words are too easy. Achieving a genuine musical result with what might superficially seem "easier" than a legato fingering is not.

Nobody has any excuse for blaming inability to do finger legato with 45 on their hand, unless they have an outrageously small hand that probably wouldn't be ready to manage octaves properly with 15 anyway. It's a matter of having the patience to learn suitable technique to fit an essential musical purpose, or simply giving up at the drop of a hat and resorting to a dead end fingering that actually makes the result significantly harder to pull off.

You say 8 octaves in a second. You say you doubt we could punch out a scale in octaves that fast. A scale in octaves is much harder than the section at hand. And truth be told, it's not that fast. I've played pieces with much faster octaves with more than a 3rd as a jump. I think if you play them at the tempo suggested you will notice that isn't all that fast... The 6th rhapsody is much faster, as is la campanella'a ending. You are being outrageous with how much you are arguing a point that has already been said. You are finding more and more things to pull out and argue, regardless of the importance. Do you get off on confrontation and putting others down via the internet. If so, please go to a different forum.


Back to the point to the OP, use whatever the hell fingers you want as long as you get the Gdmnd sound you are looking for. It will take practice but you can do it eventually. If this is already hanging you up though... Maybe do a few more pieces before tackling this one.

The way I play that small tiny little snapshot of this pieces is a very slight accelerando with a pause on the rest that is a bit longer to crest a bit more tension. Then it's released.
So do whatever you want, just so long as you like it.

[nyiregyhazi]

You say 8 octaves in a second. You say you doubt we could punch out a scale in octaves that fast. A scale in octaves is much harder than the section at hand. And truth be told, it's not that fast. I've played pieces with much faster octaves with more than a 3rd as a jump. I think if you play them at the tempo suggested you will notice that isn't all that fast... The 6th rhapsody is much faster, as is la campanella'a ending. You are being outrageous with how much you are arguing a point that has already been said. You are finding more and more things to pull out and argue, regardless of the importance. Do you get off on confrontation and putting others down via the in ternet. If so, please go to a different forum.


Back to the point to the OP, use whatever the hell fingers you want as long as you get the Gdmnd sound you are looking for. It will take practice but you can do it eventually. If this is already hanging you up though... Maybe do a few more pieces before tackling this one.

The way I play that small tiny little snapshot of this pieces is a very slight accelerando with a pause on the rest that is a bit longer to crest a bit more tension. Then it's released.
So do whatever you want, just so long as you like it.

Is this forum overloaded with top tier virtuosi or have you not tried this in practise before posting?

Set the metronome for 120 and then play four repetitions per beat, for 8 per second. If you can do that at all for any form of octaves, you're a hell of a pianist. You should really upload footage of yourself pushing your limits, if that's moderate for you. If you can shape phrases at that speed with 15 or if you can get through more than a few bars of the  6th rhapsody without flagging then you're a supervirtuoso. I've never measured it exactly, but I don't believe Horowitz even reaches that speed in his final burst for the rhapsody, never mind going a significant number of notches further.

Apologies for continuing this, but the difference between outrageously fast and "not that fast" is not a minor technicality. it's a game changer. As I already said, it's unlikely that anyone can hit the required speed on these octaves without introducing some rhythmic freedom to help out, but there's a limit to how far your can stretch before the integrity is lost. These are not easy octaves. The very difficulty is in the fact that they have to SEEM easy by being cast off not "virtuosically" in the showy sense, but with a simple melodic flow.. They are not easy, which is why so many need  use two hands to pull them off. It takes the height of virtuosity to fool the listener into thinking they are nothing, without even attempting something so difficult as nothing but 15.

[faulty_damper]

Before I posted my previous reply, I tried it out with three different fingerings: 1-5, 1-4/5, and 1-3/4/5   Any of them can be done and all of them were musically shaped and at the correct tempo.  In terms of ease and comfort, 1-4/5 was the most comfortable, followed by 1-5, and 1-3/4/5 dead last due to the 1-3 stretch to 1-4 on white keys, but I don't have huge hands.  But all of these fingerings could be done well and musically.

It's fast, but really, it's not that fast.  However, my octave technique is superb so there wasn't any struggle, but if someone else's 8ve technique were sub-par, then I imagine they would suffer tremendously regardless of the fingerings chosen.