ABC Exercises

[cabbynum]

The two words in J_menz's post you'll wish to focus on are "keyboard" and "blind".

Literally. Think about how a blind person would think about it.

Count the keys as I cross over them?
I have no idea, I'll start playing with my eyes closed though.


That's a good point J
I'll think of them as notes!

Thanks to you both

[j_menz]

Count the keys as I cross over them?
I have no idea, I'll start playing with my eyes closed though.

No, just trust you know where they are.

Be prepared for a few clangers at first, but you may be surprised how quickly that changes.

[cabbynum]

Your keyboard geography is probably a lot better than you think. Trust your instincts more.

And play the notes, not the leaps between them. That's a conceptual issue. Leaps vary a lot, the notes don't move.

You were right, I just played first movement of appassionata with way fewer mistakes than I would've imagined considering my eyes were closed and I'd never done that before but on one piece.
I defenitely had many problem areas in obvious places... But I was overall very impressed with my instincts!
I put a blindfold on because I can't trust myself haha!

[outin]

You were right, I just played first movement of appassionata with way fewer mistakes than I would've imagined considering my eyes were closed and I'd never done that before but on one piece.
I defenitely had many problem areas in obvious places... But I was overall very impressed with my instincts!
I put a blindfold on because I can't trust myself haha!

Keeping the eyes closed is hard work really...I prefer to either just look at nothing (the wall behind my piano) or play in the dark... I am also surprised every time how well it goes as long as I trust my instinct...should do it more often.

[awesom_o]

I prefer to look at the score! 

[j_menz]

I prefer to look at the score! 

I think Liszt memorised so he could look to score rather than at it. 

[cabbynum]

I think Liszt memorised so he could look to score rather than at it. 

Always there for a quick one!!!





I'll start putting in daily practice of keyboard tn visible practice.
I feel it will help a lot and give me an edge!

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't practice them. So any scales I play are in music I'm playing, so I read them. They are obviously easy to read, but I still look at the page.

Be aware that peripheral vision is a huge issue. For that reason, it's a totally different thing to practise four octave scales and arpeggios with closed eyes than to read music. Also even when playing a piece for the first time, the eyes will tend to flicker around once a pattern is spotted. Reading a score is nothing like playing truly blind.

Even when both hands have leaps, it's still much harder with closed eyes. The schumann fantasy leaps are very close to impossible with closed eyes. Peripheral vision means that even if looking at the easier hand, the harder one feels safer.

[gvans]

I'm always a bit skeptical when someone says "always" and otherwise speaks in absolutes. Life is not black and white, it's full of shades of gray. I learn chamber pieces without looking at my hands, but inevitably there are spots, usually double jumps, where I've a higher probability of hitting the notes in a performance eyes-on-keyboard.

E.G., I've gone back and forth with the first theme exposition of the Brahms Op. 87 trio, 1st movement. There are a few measures (don't have the score here, can't give the exact numbers) with double skips that make me go back and forth, by memory/looking and with eyes on the score. I'm at about 90% accuracy by memory (just a couple of problem measures at tempo) and 80% eyes on score. With a performance coming up...

How about the double octave passage early in the Liszt Sonata? It's quite easy to play at speed accurately looking at thumbs; not so easy eyes off. Again, it comes down, at least to me, to percentages. Robert Laub, in his book on the Beethoven sonatas, says the same thing about the opening to the Hammerklavier.

[j_menz]

Be aware that peripheral vision is a huge issue.

Granted,  but I can assure you it is a whole lot less of an issue for those of us with multifocal glasses.

[pover]

Sorry to bring this back up, but I was thinking about something.

I just watched a video that said that when we're born, we have a large number of synapses in our brain, and as we get older, the number decreases dramatically, unless we use them and give each one a certain objective (that's kind of putting it simply). So basically, the younger the person is when they start playing, the more synapses he will have retained and specialized to this particular task.

I was thinking about this and about this thread in particular, because recently I started focusing more on sight-reading, and to my amazement, the finger I was thinking about pressing wasn't always the one that actually went down. So the guy from the video showed a demonstration where he wanted to press the index, but the middle finger moved SLIGHTLY as well, as it's not fully co-ordinated, and that reminded me of these exercises.

Would you say the function of these exercises is to provide the neurological pathways necessary to completely control which finger does what? And would you think I've lost a lot of potential as a result of starting at 16? I know these are mostly random questions, and on an old thread, but a response would be appreciated. Oh, and are these exercises really effective? they seem very straight-forward at first 

[awesom_o]

Would you say the function of these exercises is to provide the neurological pathways necessary to completely control which finger does what?

Yes! That is indeed their function.

Don't worry about not starting early.

The exercises are extremely effective.

Even the straightforward-seeming ones at the beginning are quite tricky to do well. As for the trickier positions...they really are quite challenging.

[pover]

Yes! That is indeed their function.

Don't worry about not starting early.

The exercises are extremely effective.

Even the straightforward-seeming ones at the beginning are quite tricky to do well. As for the trickier positions...they really are quite challenging.

Ah, I see. It's intriguing, and I'm looking forward to starting them when I finish my exams (which feel like they never want to end...).

Do you think this has a great effect on sight-reading? Because lately I've noticed that I memorize music so quickly that I don't read enough, and I'm not sure that's really good.

Oh and as a side question: people say to look a measure ahead while sight-reading... how am I supposed to do that lol. I can barely read the notes of the measure I'm in, let alone play that automatically while looking ahead... any tips? 

[cabbynum]

Ah, I see. It's intriguing, and I'm looking forward to starting them when I finish my exams (which feel like they never want to end...).

Do you think this has a great effect on sight-reading? Because lately I've noticed that I memorize music so quickly that I don't read enough, and I'm not sure that's really good.

Oh and as a side question: people say to look a measure ahead while sight-reading... how am I supposed to do that lol. I can barely read the notes of the measure I'm in, let alone play that automatically while looking ahead... any tips? 

Exams suck don't they!

These exercises will not help sight reading, other than making your fingers more independent. But the actual reading will not get better at all with these. That's not the point or a side effect of these.

Reading ahead one measure is tricky. I don't always do that but it does have it's benefits. You have to just trust your fingers know what they are doing.

Also you must start sight reading much easier works. It doesn't do you much good to sight read difficult works

[pover]

cabby, you have no idea...

sight-reading really is a strange spot for me. I can play pieces like Chopin's waltzes, now working on bach's French suite 4, and generally pieces at this level, and they don't take me awfully long to play well. Usually I spend more time getting the sound I want as opposed to learning the notes per say.

But with sight reading, I just took out a grade 2 sight-reading book (Yes you read that right, GRADE 2), which my sister used when she learned piano, and to my dismay I could barely play without hesitations.. It's disgusting to be honest lol, i was ashamed of myself. Usually I learn at a decent rate (for my expectations, at least) but maybe because I learn HS then put HT. But playing HT straight-away just confuses my mind and it wants to explode.

Btw, about the alkan barcarolle, I'm thinking of starting that after the suite. It will be a change from all the baroque I've been playing lately quite interesting, at the opposite end of the spectrum.

[cabbynum]

cabby, you have no idea...

sight-reading really is a strange spot for me. I can play pieces like Chopin's waltzes, now working on bach's French suite 4, and generally pieces at this level, and they don't take me awfully long to play well. Usually I spend more time getting the sound I want as opposed to learning the notes per say.

But with sight reading, I just took out a grade 2 sight-reading book (Yes you read that right, GRADE 2), which my sister used when she learned piano, and to my dismay I could barely play without hesitations.. It's disgusting to be honest lol, i was ashamed of myself. Usually I learn at a decent rate (for my expectations, at least) but maybe because I learn HS then put HT. But playing HT straight-away just confuses my mind and it wants to explode.

Btw, about the alkan barcarolle, I'm thinking of starting that after the suite. It will be a change from all the baroque I've been playing lately quite interesting, at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Find things you can sight read at decent tempos and go from there.
I did that after I had read through every Mozart sonata and I ended up sight reading easier things and it increased my speed faster than the Mozart did. If that makes sense?
Now I sight read something easy ish to read and something hard to read as a minimum for every morning.
I just finished all the liszt etudes (bad idea by the way, I started that thinking it would be fun but then it quickly turned into "why the hell did I put this goal on myself")

There are 48 year good pieces to sight read as well...

You'll get it, just spend about 20 minutes a day on it. Your technique will increase a lot more than you think also...


With the barcarolle I I not suggest learning it hands seperate then hands together. It's a piece that works best if you just start hands together at a slow tempo and go from there. I almost never do hands seperate work unless it's a really tricky passage.

[pover]

If you're talking about the WTC, then I can assure you that's not gonna happen this lifetime.

Yea im focusing on really easy pieces now trying to get the hang of it.

I'll try to practice the barcarolle HT. In general I'm used to playing HS first to get familiar with what I have to play, then I start working on coordination

[cabbynum]

If you're talking about the WTC, then I can assure you that's not gonna happen this lifetime.

Yea im focusing on really easy pieces now trying to get the hang of it.

I'll try to practice the barcarolle HT. In general I'm used to playing HS first to get familiar with what I have to play, then I start working on coordination

I'm speaking of just the preludes for you in the near future. Fugues later... Way later...

Hands together on this piece is key. Just go slow enough that you don't make mistakes. Speed will come later, and it's not all that fast anyway...
Best of luck! I look forward to hearing it

[pover]

I'm speaking of just the preludes for you in the near future. Fugues later... Way later...

Hands together on this piece is key. Just go slow enough that you don't make mistakes. Speed will come later, and it's not all that fast anyway...
Best of luck! I look forward to hearing it

I'm excited to start learning it. This is probably gonna provide lots of opportunities for interpretive freedom so is gonna take lots of imagination on my part - something I seem to be encountering a lot of even in Bach's music. For Bach, you have to be really creative to find ways to make the repeats (in the suites, for example) more interesting, such as where to bring out a counter-melody etc, you probably know this stuff already

It doesn't help that I love music so much that I have waaay too much I want to fit in in the next couple of weeks. Today i was flipping through my sister's grade 6 exam pieces book, and I saw this one piece that I remember hearing her practice, so I decided to give it a try. I actually got it down in around 30 minutes which was a shock to me considering I usually learn much slower. I guess being exposed to a lot of music and really striving to learn more really does have great benefits.

Just today I download the sheet music for Schubert's 3rd moment musical in F minor. Not too difficult, I'd say somewhere about a week, maybe 2 for decisions, but then I still have most of the 4th french suite by bach, and some more Chopin on the side.

Speaking of Chopin, got any suggestions for mazurkas? I heard op 17 no. 4 performed by horowitz (YT ofcourse) and I kinda fell in love, but I don't think I can play it that well. I need an intro to the mazurkas anyway, so if you have any nice suggestions, I'm all ears. Oh damn, just remember I gotta get back to the arabesque... been neglecting it since I started the Suite. For me composers have their seasons, then I miss them sometime later and go back to them. Anyway, I'm just rambling on... it's 1 am here and I should probably sleep... lots of studying and practicing to do tomorrow... damn exams... 

[pianoplunker]

Hello everyone,

Here are the videos on the ABC Exercises which I promised to make.

https://the-music-blog.com/

I haven't yet made the videos for the LH, but rest assured the exercises are exactly the same for both hands. They should always be done hands separately, with the other hand resting by your side (not on your lap!).

I've given very little text explaining the exercises: it's important that they are done precisely in the manner shown.

Hold down the keys silently first. Keep your fingertips on the keys the entire time of the exercise! As soon as one key makes a sound, the next key is let up. There must be no delay. The overall tempo for the exercises is SLOW!

Best of luck, and let me know if you have any questions. I will do my best to answer everyone!

Do you think your excersize A might benefit by using  dim7 arpeggios ?

[awesom_o]

Do you think your excersize A might benefit by using  dim7 arpeggios ?

I think that would be overkill. The exercise routine which I use to follow up on the progress made from the ABC's contains a great many diminished 7ths.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think that would be overkill. The exercise routine which I use to follow up on the progress made from the ABC's contains a great many diminished 7ths.

I really can't agree with that- unless you mean trying to move the thumb around. The basic version is positively straightforward compared to what Dohnanyi does. I'd start exploring the principle in alternative positions as soon as possible. I find the most useful way of doing these of all is to put the concept into hand positions from repertoire- both for notated chords and by overholding all of the notes inside a hand postion. Only releasing one finger at a time teaches a unified hand position that efficiently readies many notes at once- rather than a serious of intricate adjustments in the fingers for every separate note. No matter how well I control the fingers in the easy white note position, I can't assume that my fingers will all ready themselves properly for a totally different shape in music. The ability to feel precisely which finger is which doesn't help unless the fingers are also set on the specific notes they need to be prepared for- which rarely means C-G.

I think the basic coordination issue can be picked up very quickly- but the exercises go way beyond that in more specific ways when you also apply them to things in repertoire. They train you to synthesise many notes in into a single "feel" for where the hand needs to be setup. Although this still demands lateral arm movements to align the arm, getting as many fingers as possible prepared in a single "feeling" is one of the greatest keys to effortless technique.  It turns a complex series of individual signals into just a single brain signal.

[awesom_o]

The basic version is positively straightforward compared to what Dohnanyi does.

The ABC exercises are all about 'quality' rather than 'quantity' in terms of their straightforwardness.

In my opinion, life is too short, and there is too much fine music to study, to be bothered with Dohnanyi.

[j_menz]

In my opinion, life is too short, and there is too much fine music to study, to be bothered with Dohnanyi.

I hope you only mean his exercises. His compositions are well worth studying.

[awesom_o]

I hope you only mean his exercises. His compositions are well worth studying.

Of course! His Cello Sonata is epic! 

[nyiregyhazi]

The ABC exercises are all about 'quality' rather than 'quantity' in terms of their straightforwardness.

In my opinion, life is too short, and there is too much fine music to study, to be bothered with Dohnanyi.

I can't agree with that. The coordination aspect of which finger moves is only the beginning. It's when you start checking that you get the hand into really effective positions (from which any finger can move a key with power, or hold it down clearly but without excess effort) that you get something more widely applicable to music. If you don't take the principles outside of five white keys, they don't necessarily offer anything for less straightforward hand positions, or the ability to get every single finger active rather than merely braced in chord playing. To expect to leap straight from the ABCs to grabbing hold of big chords would be a big ask. There's plenty of other levels to work at. There's not reason to see the ABCs as being essential but then consider life too short to start putting similar principles into the varied chord positions that we encounter within music. However, my main point here is not so much about formulaic exercises, but rather using the basic principles to ensure that the hand gets into good postures in the near infinite range of positions that can arise within actual music. I'd aim to get past the white notes version as quick as possible but then practise all manner of variants on overholding in real life hand positions.

[awesom_o]

It seems to me like you're kind of missing the point about what these exercises are for, but to each his own! 

[nyiregyhazi]

It seems to me like you're kind of missing the point about what these exercises are for, but to each his own!  

I think the exercises have multiple roles. However, the most beneficial widely applicable one for me is not in correctly perceiving each finger. It's of gettign used to unifying activity of all fingers into an effective shape of the hand, that encompasses many notes into one low effort but effectively primed (and not either completely "relaxed"/slumped or tense/fixed) shape. In that postion all fingers need to play a specific active role, whether releasing or keeping a key down. I find that the standard exercise itself only gives a very basic version of that, due to being limited to five white keys. When taking the same principle into a range of positions from music, I find the greatest benefits of all. The wide range of variants that Dohnanyi does for overholding can be applied in the exact same way- until no fingers either fall into the trap of drooping or stiffening.

[awesom_o]

I think the exercises have multiple roles.

I was introduced to them with the idea that they are not for the specific purpose of development of hand shape and finger independence. There are specific exercises for those things that we study later on. The ABC's are more of a preparatory study, which should be mastered quickly in order to establish a firm base from which you can properly understand and execute the more advanced exercises.

[nyiregyhazi]

I was introduced to them with the idea that they are not for the specific purpose of development of hand shape and finger independence. There are specific exercises for those things that we study later on. The ABC's are more of a preparatory study, which should be mastered quickly in order to establish a firm base from which you can properly understand and execute the more advanced exercises.

How can they even be executed correctly without development of functional hand shape and independence? It's possible to move focus around, but the double note ones can't be done without a clear sense of a functional hand shape and a sense of simultaneous involvement of all fingers rather than only those due to move keys. The same exercises without over holding are very easy to do on mental effort alone with poor technique and stiffness. But the over holding aspect means that stiffness or pressing don't work well here. You instead have to learn a functional activity in all over held notes, rather than passivity or stiffness- or the struck notes won't be felt clearly and precisely or with any confidence. It just doesn't happen without achieving good connection between every finger and the arm. For me, this the single most important thing about the exercise- associating actions in all fingers at once within a single chunk. You learn the same coordination of moving keys with unusually ordered fingers when doing it with no over holding. But that version is simply not as challenging, because it eliminates the need to get all the other fingers active in a balance that helps rather than hinders (whether by tension or dead relaxation).

If you look at them from that point, you have something that transfers directly to all possible positions in all of piano playing - not merely a preparatory exercise in feeling which finger is which. If that were the primary goal and position were not designed to benefit- why were they even designed with over holding? It's not even possible to do precisely coordinated timing of overheld notes in intricate co-ordinations, without developing these issues.

[awesom_o]

How can they even be executed correctly without development of functional hand shape and independence? It's possible to move focus around, but the double note ones can't be done without a clear sense of a functional hand shape and a sense of simultaneous involvement of all fingers rather than only those due to move keys. The same exercises without over holding are very easy to do on mental effort alone with poor technique and stiffness. But the over holding aspect means that stiffness or pressing don't work well here. You instead have to learn a functional activity in all over held notes, rather than passivity or stiffness- or the struck notes won't be felt clearly and precisely or with any confidence. It just doesn't happen without achieving good connection between every finger and the arm. For me, this the single most important thing about the exercise- associating actions in all fingers at once within a single chunk. You learn the same coordination of moving keys with unusually ordered fingers when doing it with no over holding. But that version is simply not as challenging, because it eliminates the need to get all the other fingers active in a balance that helps rather than hinders (whether by tension or dead relaxation).

If you look at them from that point, you have something that transfers directly to all possible positions in all of piano playing - not merely a preparatory exercise in feeling which finger is which. If that were the primary goal and position were not designed to benefit- why were they even designed with over holding? It's not even possible to do precisely coordinated timing of overheld notes in intricate co-ordinations, without developing these issues.

I wouldn't over-think it to such an extent, if I were you. I've had a lot of success with the ABC's in helping intermediate students to develop more awareness of their technique.

I would caution teachers against adapting the ABC's to other positions on the keyboard that involve the sharps/flats.  It is easy to cause injury if one uses exercises out of their intended context, or if one uses them for purposes other than that which they were originally developed for.

There is good reason that they are called "ABC's" and not "ABCDEFG's".

[nyiregyhazi]

I wouldn't over-think it to such an extent, if I were you. I've had a lot of success with the ABC's in helping intermediate students to develop more awareness of their technique.

I would caution teachers against adapting the ABC's to other positions on the keyboard that involve the sharps/flats.  It is easy to cause injury if one uses exercises out of their intended context, or if one uses them for purposes other than that which they were originally developed for.

There is good reason that they are called "ABC's" and not "ABCDEFG's".

Sorry, but I really can't agree. The most useful exercises are where the thumb is first or second. You can easily do these with black keys and they are totally normal hand alignments in basic music. The next two are more strenuous and more tension prone (if done with incorrect technique) than any inclusion of black keys in normal 12345 ordering. They are also virtually or possibly even literally unheard of in actual musical context. Other than switching 1 and 2 around to avoid thumb on black keys, I can't think any music that requires such positions. There's nothing remotely odd or difficult about having black keys in a hand position. It turns then from exercises for the sake of exercises to exercises that apply to real life pianistic positions. I had huge benefits working on the odd positions in rachmaninoff's c minor Prelude on the same principles. I'd put aside the odd thumb alignments but I wouldn't shy away from using the over holding principle to improve alignment and ease in real musical positions.

The other exercises are interesting too, as exercises. But it's the context of associating fingers to each other in the normal finger orders that makes them meaningfully transferable to virtually everything in the whole of piano playing. Whatever the inventor was aware of, failure to associate both playing and over holding fingers correctly means complete failure to be able to execute the hardest parts without error. The real challenge that a pianist faces before success is possible is the ability to get holding fingers meaningfully active rather than floppy or braced. You can't coordinate the playing fingers of the hardest ones before that happens well on over holding ones. As I said, it's actually very easy to do the equivalent exercises minus over holding (which can be done via pure mental effort via any old tensions or hand positions) which gives a lot of clues as to what the exercises are really training when success comes. A player who doesn't develop good balance on over holding fingers will simply never pass these tests. Over holding makes them too hard without good technique. I prefer awareness of these issues to develop in real world positions, before putting the thumb into odd places and trying difficult coordination.

For less experienced players, the most beneficial version involved over holding without messing around with too many different thumb position. I use these basic exercises even for beginners- so non playing fingers learn to remain active against the surface of the keys without poking out. To say that these are only applicable to c major is like assuming that if you should only practise c major scales and then you will be ready for every other with the same fingering. Sure, it helps to start somewhere first, but once the law of diminishing returns starts, it's far more useful to explore the other real world positions and get specifically applicable benefits from the same principles in other needed positions. I give alternative hand positions with these long before I start anyone trying every different place for the thumb. When a student has poor hand position in part of a piece, they learn more from using the principle within those actual and normal positions, than from the versions with thumb between each pair of fingers (in a purely theoretical alignment that no piece will use). C major only trains c major coordination. But the very first part of A applied to a real world context trains the pianist to be properly set and coordinated for whatever hand position you might need, without straining or contorting. You don't lose a thing by applying these to real world positions but you do get additional benefits. You're seeing these as a totally abstract thing, but I'm more interested in linking to demands in real piano playing than in treating them as a separate issue. Sure, they train coordination stuff but I don't think you're appreciating quite how closely they link to demands of all standard pianism- or, at least, quite how much they can do so when adapted thoughtfully into real pianistic context rather than just repeated as an abstracted goal in themself.