A book about developing good fingering. I need one

[musicioso]

Hallo guys,

I need a book about developing good fingering.


When i am improvising i come up with pretty good melodies and arpeggios and stuff, but because i dont have proper fingering skills i cant play those melodies fluently and its very frustrating.

I tried a lot of hanon, czerny and isodor phillip exercises, those are very goodfor developing fingers, they dont teach me how to find out proper fingering for something new. I can play them because the fingering is written down, if it wasnt the case i would not be ably to figure it out myself.


Here an example of one of the things i need to be able to figure out proper fingering for. 

[faulty_damper]

"Good fingering" is directly dependent on "good" technique.  With good technique, you can use almost any fingering.  This is why finger exercises don't work to develop "good fingering" since it doesn't develop good technique.  There are no books that help develop superb technique but there are ones that help develop decent technique.  The difference between superb and good is not one of degree but one of difference.   Superb technique and good technique are two different techniques.

[musicioso]

"Good fingering" is directly dependent on "good" technique.  With good technique, you can use almost any fingering.  This is why finger exercises don't work to develop "good fingering" since it doesn't develop good technique.  There are no books that help develop superb technique but there are ones that help develop decent technique.  The difference between superb and good is not one of degree but one of difference.   Superb technique and good technique are two different techniques.

You re not helping me

[g_s_223]

Due to the infinite variety of musical phrases, it isn't easy to produce definitive rules on fingering. However, if you have the time, listen to Chopin's Etudes Op.10 and Op.25 while following the pedagogical scores produced by Alfred Cortot. He was quite simply a genius in this area, and it's quite possible some of the patterns in the Etudes may correspond to what you need: for your example, perhaps Op.10 No.4 might be worth a look.

[faulty_damper]

You re not helping me

Because you didn't get the answer you wanted.
If you took the time to really understand what I'm saying, you'd understand why the answer YOU are looking for is wrong.

Due to the infinite variety of musical phrases, it isn't easy to produce definitive rules on fingering. However, if you have the time, listen to Chopin's Etudes Op.10 and Op.25 while following the pedagogical scores produced by Alfred Cortot. He was quite simply a genius in this area, and it's quite possible some of the patterns in the Etudes may correspond to what you need: for your example, perhaps Op.10 No.4 might be worth a look.

I'm going to have to disagree with Cortot.  He may have sounded nice but his technique was not great.  He re-fingered Chopin's own markings to suit his technique instead of using Chopin's technique to play the Etudes.

[faulty_damper]

Here an example of one of the things i need to be able to figure out proper fingering for. 

You didn't specify a tempo, articulation, nor dynamics.  I'd finger it all 1 if it's slow enough.  Very easy to remember the fingering that way, too.

[musicioso]

You didn't specify a tempo, articulation, nor dynamics.  I'd finger it all 1 if it's slow enough.  Very easy to remember the fingering that way, too.

I would say its is to be played fast and fluent, legato.


It seems you dont really wanna help. There are books on developing fingering, i have seen some of them, but i dont know which one is best to buy.

This is one of them


https://www.pianostreet.com/blog/articles/natural-fingering-a-topographical-approach-6306/

What do you think?

[faulty_damper]

The topographical approach isn't a new idea. It goes back to the time of Chopin.  I've not read it so don't have any comments on it.

Also, again, just because you don't like an answer doesn't mean I'm not trying to help.  I'm actually helping immensely but you don't have the experience to know that.  I stated everything as simply as I could.

But back to the topographical approach, if you ever achieve any kind of fluency, you'll know that placing a thumb on the blacks is just as easy as on the whites.  If the book says otherwise, that it shouldn't be done, then it's wrong.

Back before the piano was invented, it was considered "wrong" to use the thumb at all.  The thumb was simply not used because it was thought that it was incapable of playing the keyboard.  J.S. Bach proved that idea wrong and now everyone uses the thumb.

[musicioso]

The topographical approach isn't a new idea. It goes back to the time of Chopin.  I've not read it so don't have any comments on it.

Also, again, just because you don't like an answer doesn't mean I'm not trying to help.  I'm actually helping immensely but you don't have the experience to know that.  I stated everything as simply as I could.

But back to the topographical approach, if you ever achieve any kind of fluency, you'll know that placing a thumb on the blacks is just as easy as on the whites.  If the book says otherwise, that it shouldn't be done, then it's wrong.

Back before the piano was invented, it was considered "wrong" to use the thumb at all.  The thumb was simply not used because it was thought that it was incapable of playing the keyboard.  J.S. Bach proved that idea wrong and now everyone uses the thumb.

Sorry, you re right.  Of course you wanna help, otherwise you wouldnt waste your time on me.

Ok, lets forget topographical approach and stuff.. What do you think can i get to the point that i can figure out proper fingering for different melodies, arpeggios etc? What should i do?

Ps: a teacher is not possible as i cant afford one

[nyiregyhazi]

"Good fingering" is directly dependent on "good" technique.  With good technique, you can use almost any fingering.  This is why finger exercises don't work to develop "good fingering" since it doesn't develop good technique.  There are no books that help develop superb technique but there are ones that help develop decent technique.  The difference between superb and good is not one of degree but one of difference.   Superb technique and good technique are two different techniques.

Good technique also depends on good fingering. You don't develop technique by throwing any old fingers around. Those exercises that involve c major fingering for all scales etc. are for advanced players only. Understanding how to create simplicity through pragmatic fingering is essential for development of good technique.

To the OP, analyse basic scale fingerings in chunks. Fingering is about fitting many notes under the hand, without making needless adjustments (although sometimes seemingly needless adjustments are done deliberately to stop the arm getting locked into a static position). The majority of basic fingering is about fitting lots of notes into a single hand position. I never write fingerings in scores unless they are fiddly or complex. Most fingerings can be indicated merely by drawing a bracket over all notes that fit one chunk. If you understand the chunk properly, that usually leaves only a single possible fingering, via nothing but drawing a bracket- without needing to write any finger numbers in. Fingerings which do not fit into obvious chunks are then given special prominence, as they are less naturally logical and thus need more conscious focus.

In standard scales, the rule is simply that all chunks are constructed around a thumb on a white key. In repertoire, chunks sometimes work better with the thumb on the black keys. However, you should very rarely be passing the thumb to get there, and these are the less common ones (the start of Chopin's op. 10 no. 4 is a good example of positions being formed around thumbs on black keys - but they are never approached from beneath, so it's not awkward to get the thumb to them). Anyway, fingerings are chiefly organised around keeping the thumb on a white key and capitalising on the chance to prepare as many notes as possible in a single position. Visualise the chunk and then simply pop the hand on top of it.

[faulty_damper]

Sorry, you re right.  Of course you wanna help, otherwise you wouldnt waste your time on me.

Ok, lets forget topographical approach and stuff.. What do you think can i get to the point that i can figure out proper fingering for different melodies, arpeggios etc? What should i do?

There are a few threads where Bernhard very thoroughly describes the motions for arpeggios and scales.  (Do a search and read a lot.)  Unfortunately, the descriptions won't make sense until you try each step individually. The problem compounds because you can't make the fast scales/arpeggios work doing each step individually; you'l have to combine all motions to achieve it which is pretty hard to do without being shown.  It's definitely doable if you have the patience to practice each step individually and then combine them.

As for fingerings, if you've been doing Hanon, Pishna, and other exercises, you'll inevitably have learned poor techniques that don't translate well to playing actual pieces of music.  You should aim for ease above all else even if it doesn't seem "correct" to you.

I'll ignore technique completely for this part: for the exercise you posted, you'll have to break it up into 2- or 3-note groupings and practice each grouping individually until it's memorized.  Then simply combine them in sequences.  The memorization is more important because these patterns show up all the time.  You should be able to do it without thinking.  Keep in mind that it should be easy to play, as in the previous paragraph.

[nyiregyhazi]

There are a few threads where Bernhard very thoroughly describes the motions for arpeggios and scales.  (Do a search and read a lot.)  Unfortunately, the descriptions won't make sense until you try each step individually. The problem compounds because you can't make the fast scales/arpeggios work doing each step individually; you'l have to combine all motions to achieve it which is pretty hard to do without being shown.  It's definitely doable if you have the patience to practice each step individually and then combine them.

? His question was about fingerings, not scale technique. Unfortunately, the whys are not typically spoken of, which offers little guidance for alternatives to major and minors. In the excerpt, he needs to understand that with many black keys, white keys are usually references for thumbs. So the first two bars need thumb on D natural and thumb on A. Every other finger is just common sense based on chunking, in those bars. For a student I'd draw a bracket over each bar and expect them to figure out the details, without reams of numbers that should be self-evident from the chunk. In line 2 the obvious rhythmic groups of four may be done from 1 to 4, regardless of whether the thumb goes on the black key, as there is no thumb passing to get it there (exactly as described in Chopin op 10 no 4 in my last post.

[faulty_damper]

Fingering is dependent on technique, not the other way around.  Anyone who tries to place fingering before technique will inevitably have bad technique since it's like building a car around a steering wheel.  This problem is all too common since most teachers don't know anything about how to play fast scales or arpeggios so they focus on fingerings instead.  You wouldn't tell a beginning driver to focus on turning the steering wheel to drive, nor should you tell a piano student to focus on fingerings to play scales.

Smooth, pearly, flowing, fast scales (with slow scales you can get away with murder) depend on the co-ordination of four basic movements:

1.   Lateral shift of the hand/forearm
2.   Rotation of the hand.
3.   Slanting the hand in relation to the keyboard.
4.   Backwards and forwards movement of the arm

Brian is right. This is going to take a while, so brace yourself. Also there is no guarantee that you will understand or be able to follow any of this from a written account. This needs demonstration and hands on instruction. It is really easy to do the wrong thing and be convinced that you are doing the right thing.

Before I proceed keep in mind that

a.   Just because your teacher can do it, does not mean that s/he actually understand what s/he is doing. So pay no attention to what s/he says to you. Instead watch like a hawk what s/he does. Egghead is right: ask him/her to do it in slow motion (and observe if her verbal description of what s/he is doing is what s/he is actually doing – if she tells you to bring your thumb under the hand, but she herself does not do it, then she does not really know how s/he does it – s/he is just repeating some traditional teaching).

b.   Have you noticed that in the four basic movements above I have not mentioned fingers, or even the thumb?

c.   Thumb over and thumb under are misnomers. They do not adequately describe what is going on – it is just an abbreviation that people in the know use to avoid lengthy descriptions. Don’t take them literally.

So, are you sitting comfortably?

1.   Lateral shift of the hand/forearm

Start by placing fingers 1-2-3 on C-D-E. Now play these three notes together as a chord. Next, shift your hand laterally to the right so that your fingers 1-2-3-4 are on top of F-G-A-B. Play these four notes as chord. The fingers do not move at all. The arm does all the work by positioning the appropriate fingers in the corresponding keys. Do that all over the keyboard to get a feel for it. Soon you should be able to displace your hand sideways with great precision and accuracy. This will also teach you the scale key pattern, that is, which keys (notes) belong to the scale and which do not. This visual pattern is very important, so use the practice of this movement for that secondary purpose as well.

Now, break the chords (C-D-E) and (F-G-A-B) by “rolling” your hand to the right. Again , you are not really pressing the fingers, but rotating the forearm and using this movement coupled with the arm weight to depress the keys.  Incidentally, you have just slowed down from infinite speed (what could faster than together) to ridiculously fast. However, although playing C-D-E and F-G-A-B fast is easy, moving from E to F and from B to A is another matter altogether. So, the speed of your scale playing will always be limited by how fast you can accurately shift your hand. from the C-D-E position to the F-G-A-B position.

As you can see, there is no thumb movement (under or over), The thumb stays quietly there and the arm repositions it.

The next step is to speed up the shift between E-F and B-C and slow down the fast C-D-E and F-G-A-B groups to the top speed you can manage the shift accurately. And this is one of the paradoxes of piano playing: in order to sound even you must move unevenly. Get used to it. It happens all the time.

So rather than practise the whole scale, it makes sense to practise only the difficult bit: the shift. So, put your 3rd finger on E and press the key. Now shift your hand and press the F with the thumb by using the arm to move the hand to its new position. This is not a jump, but a glide. Your hand should be so close to the keyboard as you move that it touches it lightly. Then do the same with the B-C shift. The temptation at this stage is to put the thumb on the F, the 3rd finger on the E and just switch between them. This is really practising thumb under. You don’t want to do that. Keep the thumb quiet in its normal position and move the arm/forearm/hand.

Now comes a very important step:  as you move from E (3rd finger) to F (thumb), when you press the F, fingers 2-3-4 should already be in place, on top of G-A-B. You want to avoid them landing in any random key, and then having to shift them around to find the G-A-B. Avoid this “finger reaching” by practising the accurate placement of these fingers as you shift from E to F and from B to C. I call this preparation, and without it no one can ever play fast and smoothly.

Now you have mastered the rolling of the hand (CDE and  FGAB) and the hand shifting (EF  and BC). So now start putting it together by playing CDE (123) and shifting the hand to F (1) but do not play GAB (234) yet, just prepare by placing the fingers on the keys accurately and without pressing them. Do the same for FGABC (12341), but do not proceed to DE (23), just prepare by placing the fingers on top of the keys.

Finally, just do the scale at top speed. If you have followed all the steps above and moved to the next only after you were satisfied that you have mastered the step you were in, you should now be playing the scale at unbelievable speeds, evenly and without fatigue – and with never passing the thumb under. (or over – although this handshift is sometimes what people call thumb over).

One problem with this movement is that there is an audible break in the sound when you shift the hand. To achieve a legato sound you either will have to use the pedal in the spots where the hand shifts, or you will need to play at a very fast speed so that by the time the damper returns to the string you have already sounded the next note.

Which is why at slow speeds, many resort to thumb under to achieve a legato sound.

However, this is just one basic movement. The only reason to practise it in isolation is to understand the movement. In real life you are not going to play like this (there is no need to limit oneself unnecessarily). In isolation, this movement requires a huge hand shift. What we need is to combine it with another movement that will allow a physical connection between the relevant keys. And this is our next movement: rotation

[To be continued...]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=7226.0#msg72166

[nyiregyhazi]

Fingering is dependent on technique, not the other way around.  Anyone who tries to place fingering before technique will inevitably have bad technique since it's like building a car around a steering wheel.  This problem is all too common since most teachers don't know anything about how to play fast scales or arpeggios so they focus on fingerings instead.  You wouldn't tell a beginning driver to focus on turning the steering wheel to drive, nor should you tell a piano student to focus on fingerings to play scales.


https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=7226.0#msg72166

? Aside from the fallacious assumption that teaching fingering necessarily means neglecting technique, technique is nothing without fingering. That's possibly the single silliest false polarisation of inseparable issues that I've ever seen regarding pianism. The whole reason we avoid thumbs on B flat in F major is because it completely destroys technique unless you have phenomenal experience in simpler thumb passing before doing such unusual things. You don't learn good scales without good fingering and you couldn't be much further off the mark by suggesting it's a case of choosing fingering OR technique. Trying a fast scale without sorting fingering first is like flooring it into a corner, without yet even knowing whether it's a left or right turn, and expecting to survive it.

Fingering is the decision as to which fingers to go on which keys. To say that any old decision can work as long as the technique is right is a self-contradiction. There are often more ways than one, but many fingerings are simply wrong, beyond all subjective opinion. Doing bad fingerings trains bad technique. The basic premise for foundation fingering is not dependent on existing technique in the slightest. It's a concept. A concept does not require existing technique to be good or bad. Only at advanced levels might a student be in a position to use unusual fingerings, that require plenty of technique to work. It's far truer to say that good understanding of fingering aids technique than to say that technique aids fingering. Some very accomplished pianists gain good technique but are still hopeless at fingering passages without an editor's help, because they have only copied fingerings without understanding the principles.

Bernhard's post does not neglect fingering. The problem is that it only teaches the fingering for a C major scale. To understand how to derive your own fingerings for specific passages, you need to either learn to read between the lines as to why it's done that way or to read a whole different type of analysis. Plenty of pianists play all scale fingerings correctly, yet would be clueless as to how to efficiently finger the rather less conventional figures written in the excerpt posted here. Of course he should learn good scale technique, but his question was about finding efficient fingering for other passages. Your responses have nothing to do with that.

[xdjuicebox]

Just think of what would be comfortable [pretty important] and musically correct [most important]. You want to try to land the heavier fingers [like thumb] on accented notes, since there's a tendency to accent the thumb anyway [which you should stray away from but meh], and try to avoid awkward contortions, and keep your wrist straight, as well as avoiding too many 5-1 or 1-5 switches. Also, try to avoid thumb on black keys, but if it must happen, let it happen.

But "On Piano Playing" by Neuhaus is good.

[lelle]

I'm actually helping immensely but you don't have the experience to know that. 

  Then you are not really helping him...

[faulty_damper]

Then you are not really helping him...

Then according to you, you must have already traveled the path to know that the path is correct.  In practical terms, ignore teachers because you haven't learned it yet.  Only when you learn it will your teachers be helpful.

That's not the way teaching works.  It requires a leap of faith.  In this instance, there's a complete misunderstanding of the problem which resulted in a question with answers that leads down the wrong path.  The inexperienced will answer the question as it is, whereas the experienced would suggest something else entirely.