Why are the rudest, most bigoted comments on this forum always made by men?

[thalbergmad]

You are more highly strung than my banjo.

Thal

[jknott]

You obviously aren't used to people picking you up on your misogyny, personal abuse etc.  I'm merely behaving rationally towards someone who threw personal abuse at me last night.

But I will leave you to your ravings as I've got better things to do.

Who'd have thought a piano forum could be so unpleasant.

[kakeithewolf]

You obviously aren't used to people picking you up on your misogyny, personal abuse etc.  I'm merely behaving rationally towards someone who threw personal abuse at me last night.

But I will leave you to your ravings as I've got better things to do.

Who'd have thought a piano forum could be so unpleasant.

Arguing with people that are virtually hard-wired to think a certain way is always fruitless.

[thalbergmad]

You obviously aren't used to people picking you up on your misogyny, personal abuse etc. 

It very rarely happens as most people realise I am a clown and don't waste keystrokes answering my posts.

Every now and again though, someone bites.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

But I will leave you to your ravings as I've got better things to do.

No doubt you have. As head dinner lady I expect you have to work out the menu.

Thal

[jknott]

If I were head dinner lady - and god forbid that anyone would voluntarily eat anything I'd cooked - I'd know what to do with silly boys like you.

[ahinton]

You really must learn to control your emotions.

They will be your undoing.

Mirror? Caliban? Face?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

If I were head dinner lady - and god forbid that anyone would voluntarily eat anything I'd cooked - I'd know what to do with silly boys like you.

I thought you had better things to do??

Thal

[joplinfreak]

My goodness!!! At first I thought this thread would be a constructive debate, NOT SO! Must we hash insults at each other?

jknott you continually make mention of the fact that you were "verbally abused" please make a distinction between mere insults and " abuse." I didn't see "harsh or coarsely insulting language" at least nothing that you would not/did not say yourself.

I must say you strike me as very feministic, please tell me if you are so I can decide if I can actually win.

[kakeithewolf]

My goodness!!! At first I thought this thread would be a constructive debate, NOT SO!

This is the Internet. What did you expect?

[joplinfreak]

Unfortunately I forgot about that little known fact.

[Bob]

Nils is going to close this thread soon.  

If I had an avatar, I think I'd pic this one.  

[j_menz]

individuals who had a gram of culture - and there are some like J_Menz

A gram? I have a whole fridge full.

** Note to self: Must clean out fridge more often. 

[outin]

My thread was itself "provoked" by the thread on women composers.

But the misogyny on this forum is something I wouldn't have believed unless I'd seen it.

I'll be telling Pianostreet I'm not going to renew my subscription when it comes up.  I don't pay money to be insulted as I was last night.

Sometimes insults get to the point of only being amusing...I think Thal has made himself into a great caricature and as such the things he says should not insult you to that level.

I know humour is often used as a weapon against the attempts to bring out injustices (you know, feminists simply don't have any sense of humour). But in the internet world anything goes until someone is attacked personally and one should learn to stop reading and responding when it starts to feel too serious.

Or you can always ask Nils to close the thread (he's from Sweden, where there are strict laws protecting the rights of women). But you cannot correct the world on forums like this.

[ahinton]

Sometimes insults get to the point of only being amusing...I think Thal has made himself into a great caricature and as such the things he says should not insult you to that level.

I know humour is often used as a weapon against the attempts to bring out injustices (you know, feminists simply don't have any sense of humour). But in the internet world anything goes until someone is attacked personally and one should learn to stop reading and responding when it starts to feel too serious.

Or you can always ask Nils to close the thread (he's from Sweden, where there are strict laws protecting the rights of women). But you cannot correct the world on forums like this.

True, but when a forum member tries to order another to "control her emotions" when at the same time failing to control his own and, in any case, the concerns expressed here are for the most part less about emotions than about what ought to be common courtesy, tolerance and broadmindedness, one can see that jknott has a point; that said, I know a number of feminists whose sense of humour is highly developed (and let's not forget that most of the best jokes against Jews are made by Jews).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

(and let's not forget that most of the best jokes against Jews are made by Jews).

Nonsense. The best ever Jewish joke was told by Bernard Manning.

Thal

[kakeithewolf]

Nonsense. The best ever Jewish joke was told by Bernard Manning.

Thal

True, but you forget that he said the best jokes, indicating plural. That means they make the majority of the best, but not necessarily the single best one.

[outin]

True, but when a forum member tries to order another to "control her emotions" when at the same time failing to control his own and, in any case, the concerns expressed here are for the most part less about emotions than about what ought to be common courtesy, tolerance and broadmindedness, one can see that jknott has a point; that said, I know a number of feminists whose sense of humour is highly developed (and let's not forget that most of the best jokes against Jews are made by Jews).

Best,

Alistair

Does Thal have emotions?
I think you misunderstood me...I am not the one saying that feminists don't have a sense of humour, but that argument is often used against them. I guess I could be called a feminist myself, although there are so many kinds, that it's a difficult concept to use...

[thalbergmad]

True, but you forget that he said the best jokes, indicating plural. That means they make the majority of the best, but not necessarily the single best one.

So he did. I stand/sit corrected.

Anyway, there was this Jewish chap who was down on his luck, so he thought he would try and win the lottery............................................

Thal

[kakeithewolf]

So he did. I stand/sit corrected.

Anyway, there was this Jewish chap who was down on his luck, so he thought he would try and win the lottery............................................

Thal

Something is slightly wrong with me when I have more of a problem with sexism than anti-semitism (not that I support either).

[thalbergmad]

Both are horrid as is almost anything that ends in ism, but we should be able to laugh at all of them freely.

Thal

[ahinton]

Does Thal have emotions?

Why ask me?(!)...

I think you misunderstood me...I am not the one saying that feminists don't have a sense of humour, but that argument is often used against them.

No, I did understand that and indeed agree with you here.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Both are horrid as is almost anything that ends in ism, but we should be able to laugh at all of them freely.

I take your point and indeed agree with it to some extent but you should be more selective in your view here, as not all "isms" are necessarily to be deplored; someone who was discussing this once said that the best one of all was bard Kingdom Brunel.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Here are some feminists. Who ever said they are visually challenged??. There is no evidence.

Thal

[ahinton]

Here are some feminists. Who ever said they are visually challenged??. There is no evidence.

No one here was discussing the appearance or otherwise of certain feminists in the first place, so why not let it be, Thal?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

let it be

Strange coming from a man who did not know John Lennon was 1940-1980.

Thal

[j_menz]

Strange coming from a man who did not know John Lennon was 1940-1980.

Thal

Why? It was one of Paul's.

[ahinton]

Strange coming from a man who did not know John Lennon was 1940-1980.

Of course I did but I could not be sure that this was the person who was being referred to in the context concerned on the strength of the dates alone.

Best,

Alistair

[outin]

Here are some feminists. Who ever said they are visually challenged??. There is no evidence.

I wonder if someone less hadsome than you might find even a feminist acceptable enough? Not every male is as fortunate as you when it comes to looks...

[kakeithewolf]

I wonder if someone less hadsome than you might find even a feminist acceptable enough? Not every male is as fortunate as you when it comes to looks...

Speaking as a male with piss poor looks, I would say that the answer is yes. Hell, the butch stereotype for feminists is right up my alley.

[j_menz]

I wonder if someone less hadsome than you might find even a feminist acceptable enough? Not every male is as fortunate as you when it comes to looks...

You forgot the [ sarcasm ]  text [ /sarcasm ] 

[outin]

You forgot the [ sarcasm ]  text [ /sarcasm ] 

Maybe I did 

[thalbergmad]

I wonder if someone less hadsome than you

Which is the vast majority of the World's population.

Thal

[ahinton]

Which is the vast majority of the World's population.

Be that as it may or may not, it remains a fact that not all feminists look like "feminists" any more than not all pianists look like "pianists"; even banjo players don't all have identifying characteristics in terms of appearance.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

bollox

[brogers70]

I am a man. You do not have to be crazy to notice that the internet is full of casual, unpleasant misogyny. It simply is. It's easy for men to say to women, "just ignore it." But it's there, and it can easily make women's experience of on-line life a pain in the ass.

[ahinton]

bollox

Not something(s) that I've encountered in any female feminists, I have to admit.

Best,

Alistair

[joplinfreak]

CLOSE THIS THREADE PLEEEEEAAAASE!!!! I"M TIRED OF SEEING IT MY MESSAGE BOX!!!

[emill]

CLOSE THIS THREADE PLEEEEEAAAASE!!!! I"M TIRED OF SEEING IT MY MESSAGE BOX!!!   

my unsolicited advice - YOU DO NOT HAVE TO READ IT ! ! !

Closing this thread because you feel irritated, angry, dissappointed, etc ... etc... will be like the prevailing attitude in Putin's Russia or China's Xi Jinping where only agreeable and pleasant comments, observations and news are allowed.

As they say .... the NET is FREE and for EVERYONE - even the dull, the ignorant, the bigots and idiots . . . they too have their opinions!

[kakeithewolf]

CLOSE THIS THREADE PLEEEEEAAAASE!!!! I"M TIRED OF SEEING IT MY MESSAGE BOX!!!

I rather enjoy the spats that lie here.

[mjedwards]

     Gosh!  I've just joined this forum, so maybe I don't know its conventions and running gags, etc.; but I started reading this thread, and was astonished!  It sounded very like a sexist, bigoted spat of the sort you find on some of those really vile comment pages on certain tabloid web sites - and yet, after a certain point, it's not going to the very *extremes* of nastiness as these things tend to do when they are for real.  Is it all a big joke, and everyone's quietly laughing and enjoying the joke, and no-one's really insulted, and no-one means any malice?  If so, it's certainly a strange joke to have here; if it's for real, it's a very unbecoming quarrel to be having here.
     I haven't read it all - not sure if I can digest it all at once - so maybe I've missed something.  Someone, please tell me: is it actually just a big, good-natured joke?  I hope so; there's a lot of very interesting discussion about musical topics here by clearly intelligent musicians, and it would be very sad if there were a contingent who were seriously (not jokingly) into that sort of sexism.  As a joke, I'm okay with that - I'm not paralyzed by political correctness myself.

Regards, Michael.

[kakeithewolf]

    Gosh!  I've just joined this forum, so maybe I don't know its conventions and running gags, etc.; but I started reading this thread, and was astonished!  It sounded very like a sexist, bigoted spat of the sort you find on some of those really vile comment pages on certain tabloid web sites - and yet, after a certain point, it's not going to the very *extremes* of nastiness as these things tend to do when they are for real.  Is it all a big joke, and everyone's quietly laughing and enjoying the joke, and no-one's really insulted, and no-one means any malice?  If so, it's certainly a strange joke to have here; if it's for real, it's a very unbecoming quarrel to be having here.
     I haven't read it all - not sure if I can digest it all at once - so maybe I've missed something.  Someone, please tell me: is it actually just a big, good-natured joke?  I hope so; there's a lot of very interesting discussion about musical topics here by clearly intelligent musicians, and it would be very sad if there were a contingent who were seriously (not jokingly) into that sort of sexism.  As a joke, I'm okay with that - I'm not paralyzed by political correctness myself.

Regards, Michael.

I'm frankly not sure whether or not this is a joke. Somehow, I get the feeling Thal is joking, considering he's presenting a very run-of-the-mill and typical sexist view. As for me, I'm not sure whether or not me hating my own gender counts as sexism, but if it does, I would have to say I'm rather sexist indeed.

[mjedwards]

     Ahh... I'm not sure if it *is* sexism or not when it's your own sex you don't like.
     I am male, and I wouldn't say I dislike men; but I do tend to think some of the criticisms made of them do have a lot of basis, and I do occasionally wonder if women on the whole are kinder, nicer beings.  I find the theory quite credible that the way animals (including humans) have evolved would itself tend to give males and females different characteristics or tendencies.
     Is it sexism if you really believe that, on a biological and psychological basis, there are real differences between men and women which are inherent to their respective sexes?  Not out of bias or dislike of one sex, but just because you believe the scientific evidence supports that conclusion?  I don't know.
     I used to know someone who was generally regarded as rather right-wing in his views, and he was a very intelligent, scientifically-literate man (a member of Mensa); and he believed that there are racial differences in intelligence between various ethnic groups or races.  For instance, he claimed that, on average, the most intelligent race is Polish Jews (he was not one himself); and he also said that American Blacks are, on average, less intelligent than American Whites (he was a White American, living in Melbourne, Australia at the time, which is where I got to know him).  He had no dislike of Blacks that I am aware of, no bad feelings, no desire to discriminate: he simply believed that the scientific evidence for this was strong enough to support the belief.
     Is that racism?  I don't know.  I think I have read elsewhere that the consensus of scientific opinion does not support the idea - so possibly my friend was misinformed, or had outdated information - although, going by the kinds of books he read, that doesn't seem likely.  But the point is he really believed it to be factually true, and I would not call him racist just for that.  He had no desire to form discriminatory social or political policies based on that, and that is a saving grace, because that is the line I would consider taboo.
     And I have to admit that, when there are obvious physical differences between people that are inherent to race (skin and eye colour, appearance of hair, physique, and so on), it is not itself unreasonable to suppose that some mental or emotional characteristics may similarly be inherent to certain races - although I don't know if this has actually been scientifically verified.
     We bandy terms like "racism" around rather freely today - maybe some would think me racist for merely raising the possibility I just did about racial differences possibly extending into mental or psychological characteristics.

Regards, Michael.

[kakeithewolf]

    Ahh... I'm not sure if it *is* sexism or not when it's your own sex you don't like.
     I am male, and I wouldn't say I dislike men; but I do tend to think some of the criticisms made of them do have a lot of basis, and I do occasionally wonder if women on the whole are kinder, nicer beings.  I find the theory quite credible that the way animals (including humans) have evolved would itself tend to give males and females different characteristics or tendencies.
     Is it sexism if you really believe that, on a biological and psychological basis, there are real differences between men and women which are inherent to their respective sexes?  Not out of bias or dislike of one sex, but just because you believe the scientific evidence supports that conclusion?  I don't know.
     I used to know someone who was generally regarded as rather right-wing in his views, and he was a very intelligent, scientifically-literate man (a member of Mensa); and he believed that there are racial differences in intelligence between various ethnic groups or races.  For instance, he claimed that, on average, the most intelligent race is Polish Jews (he was not one himself); and he also said that American Blacks are, on average, less intelligent than American Whites (he was a White American, living in Melbourne, Australia at the time, which is where I got to know him).  He had no dislike of Blacks that I am aware of, no bad feelings, no desire to discriminate: he simply believed that the scientific evidence for this was strong enough to support the belief.
     Is that racism?  I don't know.  I think I have read elsewhere that the consensus of scientific opinion does not support the idea - so possibly my friend was misinformed, or had outdated information - although, going by the kinds of books he read, that doesn't seem likely.  But the point is he really believed it to be factually true, and I would not call him racist just for that.  He had no desire to form discriminatory social or political policies based on that, and that is a saving grace, because that is the line I would consider taboo.
     And I have to admit that, when there are obvious physical differences between people that are inherent to race (skin and eye colour, appearance of hair, physique, and so on), it is not itself unreasonable to suppose that some mental or emotional characteristics may similarly be inherent to certain races - although I don't know if this has actually been scientifically verified.
     We bandy terms like "racism" around rather freely today - maybe some would think me racist for merely raising the possibility I just did about racial differences possibly extending into mental or psychological characteristics.

Regards, Michael.

I don't have very good experience with either gender, as both have historically been very coarse to me, but I do realize that women have received the short end of the stick in well near every matter.

As for the matter of the matter of racial difference, you have to understand what strictly defines race. Race is merely the concentration of melanin in your skin; it has no other qualifying factors. The differences you are speaking of are not based on skin colour, they are largely based in environmental factors and genetic history.

Things like features, hair, and physique are very heavily based in familial genetics and ancestry. For example, I am quite pale, I was originally blond and had blue eyes, and I have an enormous predisposition to alcoholism. The reason why is because I am half Scandinavian. What are normally recessive traits are very much dominant within me.

This kind of thing is common, as people often have traits of their heritage strongly, and develop features based on the environment and location they were raised in, and their parental and familial genetic code. Clusters of people who have similar origins, familial genetics, and environment were what lead to stereotypes becomes notable and present in the first place.

[thalbergmad]

    Gosh!  I've just joined this forum

Indeed, so perhaps you could reserve judgement until you have been here for say 24 hours??

Thal

[kakeithewolf]

Indeed, so perhaps you could reserve judgement until you have been here for say 24 hours??

Thal

That would imply it takes that long to form a first impression.

[thalbergmad]

First impressions can be formed in seconds. Overall and well informed impressions take a fair bit longer.

Thal

[outin]

First impressions can be formed in seconds. Overall and well informed impressions take a fair bit longer.

Thal

But of course some assessments require no time at all since they can be made by the presense or lack of certain organs 

[kakeithewolf]

But of course some assessments require no time at all since they can be made by the presense or lack of certain organs 

What organs in particular? More than one organ affects perception.

[outin]

What organs in particular? More than one organ affects perception.

The reproductive organs of those being perceived...