So I don't really know much about hand and arm anatomy, but I've heard people tell others who ask about increasing "finger strength" something along the lines of "you're stupid; fingers don't have muscles!" In the case that that is true, what exactly is the physiological prerequisite of really good technique?
So I don't really know much about hand and arm anatomy, but I've heard people tell others who ask about increasing "finger strength" something along the lines of "you're stupid; fingers don't have muscles!" In the case that that is true, what exactly is the physiological prerequisite of really good technique? Like I watch Zimerman's interpretations of the Beethoven concertos; he plays extremely fast passages (and trills!) brilliantly and loudly on every key. How can I train my hands and body to be able to play like this, and more importantly, what is it that he is doing that I am not in order to achieve this?
Fingers may not have muscles, but they do have flesh and bone. Callouses can toughen the flesh, and that's the simpler route to go. The bone, on the other hand, is most effectively strengthened by causing tiny fractures in the bones and letting the osteoclasts rebuild the bone, which causes the bone to thicken and strengthen given time.
Are you saying I could get sturdier fingers by hammering them regularly?
Without a doubt, this has to be one of the dumbest suggestions ever made to improve piano performance. In answer to the OP's subsequent question, I will furnish the following information:There used to be a world class concert pianist by the name of Lorin Hollander who started his career in my home town of San Antonio at the age of 13. He could play anything.Then, he got the bright idea to play the Prokofiev 5th Concerto on a regular basis. Now, to cut to the present, in his own words, when he plays his fingers feel like pieces of broken glass.So, here is an example of how bone fractures ruined a well established career, and also left the pianist to live the rest of his life in excruciating pain.Man, you couldn't get a hand surgeon or an orthopaedist on this planet to support your idiotic, and very dangerous logic.
@pianoman8: I have heard that they are among the best methods to help improve technique in all aspects.
Isn't anyone going to say anything about this (words cannot describe) person who, while not recommending, is giving forth instructions on how to ruin your hand? Have you all gone blind?"striking a brick wall for an hour or two a day does the trick just fine." Can you good folks read?
I say nay to the arm weight... Arm weight is a mythical phenomenon, often discussed but no evidence to support it.
and wrist flexibility isn't all that important
Do you play piano with rigid wrists??
Is it just a question of "actually practicing, and working on harder pieces?"
I say nay to the arm weight and wrist flexibility. Arm weight is a mythical phenomenon...
When I say flexibility is not important, I mean that the range of motion is not important since most people have sufficient range of motion.
Can you explain what you mean by 'arm weight' here, please?I'd always read this literally up to now, but you must be using it in some other sense.
I think when people talk about wrist flexibility in relation to piano playing they mean this fluidity/suppleness/freedom/flexibility you describe that you have. Having wrist flexibility is not about bending the wrist beyond their normal range of motion but it means to play without any stiffness in the wrists.
But that's not the definition of flexibility. If suppleness is what's meant, then the word suppleness should be the word used. Otherwise, pianists would be doing flexibility exercises trying to increase wrist flexibility to no appreciable technical improvement.
If I look up the translation for flexibility into my own language I get its equivalents to "suppleness" "elastic" "pliable" and, indeed, "flexible". But I agree, I too think "suppleness" is a better word than "flexible" (if I recall correctly Cortot asks for extremely supple wrists). But it's like finger "strength" and finger "independence". Bernhard says finger independence doesn't exist because the fingers are connected via tendons. But as I understand it finger independence means that when playing, you are able to use whatever finger you want quickly and accurately and without stiffening the wrist or arm, no matter the tempo. The same goes for strength, it's not about pumping iron with your fingers but being able to produce good, strong tone no matter what finger happens to be playing (so it's a matter of coordination).
Arm weight means using the weight of the arm to depress the keys. This cannot possibly happen in most instances because the resulting sound - extremely loud - would occur if the arm were to freely drop. As well, the finger tips would bruise from the repeated impact.
Let your upper arm be relaxed at your side, hang your hand from your wrist, touch finger 3 on a key - you're ready to use arm weight. Just loose the biceps so your forearm falls and the finger goes into the key. What you do next is the real art!
That may work some of the time, however, that won't work for scales nor arpeggios, nor loud chords.
Without a doubt, this has to be one of the dumbest suggestions ever made to improve piano performance.
Very true. I like the way you put this.
Then why did you say that it's not about dropping the arm? It's no use denying that and them agreeing with a post that explicitly describes precisely that, in the very next breath. To avoid being harmful, descriptions of arm weight need to be clear about what it can and cannot do. In anything of even moderate speed, it cannot replace the finger movement. When you merely release the arm, it falls-unlese you stress that the finger is going to need to move the key. The description you agreed with mentioned no such thing and was thus asking for the arm to collapse down.
I meant to include the part after, "What you do next is the real art." or something like that. You have to start with all the arm weight to understand how it must be done. If you can exaggerate it, you can always minimize it. You can't expect to do it small at first. We, as humans, do not have the control to put in small and precise motions. If you can habituate yourself to doing something largely, than it can be always made smaller. What you do next is really an art. To control the distribution of the weight is an art.
Wow. My teacher is of the "arm weight" school. And I thought that in playing a run of thirty second notes, or hemi-demi-semiquavers (to use the obviously clearer terminology) that arm weight meant one was supposed to raise and drop the arm for each note individually. My common sense was utterly unable to see that that was not the intention. I'm so glad someone stepped in to clarify that.
What's next is too late if the finger either collapsed or stiffened to prevent that. Distribution of weight is indeed an art but it doesn't even get off the ground unless you know how to use your fingers rather than separate arm descents on each note. Failing to even mention the finger role is an excellent recipe for completely misunderstanding the role of weight and thus setting up a cycle that is almost impossible to break - where notes are moved by slow and unwieldy arm drops rather than with precise finger actions. The problem with arm weight descriptions is that they put all the focus on something that is actually very easy to accomplish. The primary difficulty lies in using the finger properly rather than stiffening it or drooping it. It's when you get this wrong that the loose arm aspect is hard to achieve. You can't be loose by trying to plop the arm on to ten individual notes per second. Fingers need to move them while the arm drifts laterally.
Your sarcasm might be pertinent if appreciating that the arm cannot drop that fast were enough to automatically inspire train fingers to move well enough to produce fast scales. Perhaps I should phrase an equally sarcastic sentence portraying that absurdity to be the case? You really think basic common sense is enough to provide a good technique? The point is that when you train someone to play by dropping their arm and fail to show them how to play without dependence on arm pressure, even the realisation that fingers need to start adding more movement won't override the instincts that have been acquired by training of something else altogether. I speak as someone who had scarcely any idea quite how overly dependent I was on trying to bob the arm literally at high speeds - no matter how obvious it might that it would be rationally impossible to truly succeed that way. PS. I know of people that honestly have no idea that fingers must take over. I've heard plenty of people claim that the arm provides the energy for key movement. Either they have no concept of what energy actually is or they believe that the fingers are merely passing on movement rather than generating it. It's amazing what enough years of irrational indoctrination can impart as literal beliefs. Just look at Taubmanites and rotation. Most of them literally seem to think rotation is the energy source. I'd say that people who have put 2 and 2 together and seen reality from a truly pragmatic point of view are genuinely the exceptions.
Fingers do indeed have a role! Letting them collapse, droop or stiffen is defeating the purpose. It would be just as bad as using just the fingers. I agree with that.Those who play with the arm plopping up and down are learning the basic feeling of using their arm. They probably have used their fingers for their entire lives. The next step is to feel like the arm goes straight across. No up and down. Feel like there is a pressure, from the arm, on your finger tips. Your fingers should not be the origin of this pressure. The arm should produce a constant weight. Whether you play a scale, arpeggio, or chords, there should be a constant and definite weight produced by your forearm. That is why bench height is important, to maximize the energy you can produce with your arm. The point I am trying to make is, fingers do not independently work. They do not produce the energy to depress the keys. Your arm is the weight.
The point I am trying to make is, fingers do not independently work.
Your fingers don't independently work at all? Does this mean that when you try to move one finger, all of the other fingers move automatically, without your control or consent?
Actually, they do produce the energy. Because otherwise the arm would have to drop once per note. In my case, my arm bobbed not because I'd only used my fingers but because I'd been told to drop my arm weight and use my arm to produce the energy. I did exactly what you said is good and didn't learn to move my fingers instead. When I learned to move my fingers, I learned to stop bobbing my arm. Some things are simply exactly as they appear. A bobbing arm means too much falling and too little finger movement. Only way to stop the arm bobbing is to produce movement in the fingers instead. That means that is where the energy is coming from too. Something that rests at constant height does not transmit energy. Movement transmits energy. An arm that bobs transmits energy and one that drifts sideways while fingers move keys doesn't.
Alright, now to the next step. It remains at a constant height but there is forearm rotation which than rotates the finger. There is your energy. Arm weight + Forearm Rotation = Finger Movement = Energy. The sound will be terrible without a forearm shape. It's not like someone could get this in a day, week, or even year. It takes time. Maybe you've achieved this stage without calling it "rotation" or "shaping." You probably have and have misinterpreted the Taubman Approach's teachings. From what you are saying, I see similarities in what is taught in the Taubman Approach and what you are doing. I am just speaking in terms I am familiar with and you speak in terms you are familiar with.
Fingers do indeed have a role! Letting them collapse, droop or stiffen is defeating the purpose. It would be just as bad as using just the fingers. I agree with that.Those who play with the arm plopping up and down are learning the basic feeling of using their arm. They probably have used their fingers for their entire lives.
At the piano, you can use your fingers independently. I am saying you shouldn't not you can't move them independently.
There really is nothing wrong with sitting and playing the piano with your fingers
Topic: Does "finger strength" exist? 