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I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!! (Read 6299 times)

Offline j_menz

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #150 on: April 01, 2014, 04:52:59 AM »
In that case God did choose to leave some of us without it. Interesting...

Perhaps, being omniscient, He knew how you'd treat it.  ;D
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #151 on: April 01, 2014, 02:43:04 PM »
Perhaps, being omniscient, He knew how you'd treat it.  ;D

And since faith alone would give obvious issues, He (in his almighty wisdom) linked ignorency to this virtue.
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Offline iansinclair

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #152 on: April 01, 2014, 04:18:34 PM »
In that case God did choose to leave some of us without it. Interesting...
Um... well... not really.  (I'm treading very lightly on this thread, by the way!).  If we start off by accepting certain Christian principles as valid, if only for the sake of discussion, then one of the most important is the concept of free will.  In this particular instance, what I would say is that, first, God does not offer mankind faith, nor did He give it to anyone.  What He did give in this regard is free will -- and in the matter of faith, we are, each of us individually, free to believe and have faith, or free not to do so.  For what it's worth, I would also note that faith is not a one shot deal and you are done.  It has to be lived and acted on every day -- and that can be remarkably difficult to sustain.
Ian

Offline timothy42b

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #153 on: April 01, 2014, 04:33:13 PM »
  If we start off by accepting certain Christian principles as valid, if only for the sake of discussion, then one of the most important is the concept of free will. 

Free will is a derived Christian value.  It isn't Biblical.  It is the result of implicitly thinking through a logic process.  I think it goes like this:

God punishes man for sin.

God is good and wouldn't do that if man were too weak to resist temptation, because it wouldn't be man's fault.  Therefore man must have free will.

And yet at the same time, it is also a basic Christian principle that man is too weak to resist temptation and save himself, so he needs Jesus. 

It's a little bit of a contradiction, or at least confusion.

But either way, the Bible nowhere ascribes free will, and it is not found in any of the standard credal statements (Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian) so it is not a requirement in any faith to believe in it.  It just seems like if God is fair there ought to be free will - but that doesn't make it so. 
Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #154 on: April 01, 2014, 04:38:44 PM »
You are free to think that, but unfortunately you are a part of a minority group on that one. Faith is not a choice, it is given to us by God.

Well, I have two problems with your statement.  At least.

First, I claim that faith in the supernatural is not rational, even though it is widespread;  all religions contain elements that a neutral and critically thinking observer would reject.  Including mine.  And, especially yours.  <g>  (We all worship the same God, you in your way and I in His.)   

You reply that God made you believe. 

That doesn't really respond to the problem, does it?  Surely God can make us believe in anything, however irrational;  so God encouraging faith must be meaningless in reference to how rational that faith might be.  (If an advertising specialist can convince us smoking is a good idea, surely God can convince us of anything).

Secondly, isn't the idea that God makes us believe an irrational idea in and of itself? 
Tim

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #155 on: April 01, 2014, 04:59:33 PM »
For what it's worth, I would also note that faith is not a one shot deal and you are done.  It has to be lived and acted on every day -- and that can be remarkably difficult to sustain.

Yes, that is what religious people love to tell each other: It is so hard what we're doing, we're so cool that we can do it nevertheless, and now we're better than other humanbeings (extra choirboy in heaven as a reward!)

Actually, following some vague religion that most people around you believe is the easy way out. The stubborn ignoring of contradictions and counterevidence is THE biggest flaw of human psychic (and proof that the all-creating god was everythign but a genius): This is why people vote for Putin, Erdogan, Teaparty republicans and why religion has been for almost any war the number one tool to get enough supporters.

Ofcourse, atheism is just as silly as theism because you can never be sure of either, nor prove it. But it would be nice if more people realized that their belief in a religion or god is just that, a 'belief', and that it is therefor pointless trying to convince other people.

Btw i think the best thing for world piece would be to create a country especially for religious extremists who cant keep their opinions to themselves: Put all those terrorist muslims, colonizing jews, evangelist christians, teaparty members and other human beings who battle for the best spot in afterlife, in that country and provide them with weapons.
Maybe that would free up a bit more money for music education :)
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Online outin

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #156 on: April 01, 2014, 05:30:38 PM »
Um... well... not really.  (I'm treading very lightly on this thread, by the way!).  If we start off by accepting certain Christian principles as valid, if only for the sake of discussion, then one of the most important is the concept of free will.  In this particular instance, what I would say is that, first, God does not offer mankind faith, nor did He give it to anyone.  What He did give in this regard is free will -- and in the matter of faith, we are, each of us individually, free to believe and have faith, or free not to do so.  For what it's worth, I would also note that faith is not a one shot deal and you are done.  It has to be lived and acted on every day -- and that can be remarkably difficult to sustain.

Well, I was only commenting on what Lostinidlewonder wrote. I have no way of knowing what God did or did not do, nor do I care really.

Offline mikeowski

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #157 on: April 01, 2014, 05:33:29 PM »
Ofcourse, atheism is just as silly as theism because you can never be sure of either, nor prove it.

No, it's not.
Firstly, pretty much anybody calling themselves an atheist actually means it as atheist agnostic and secondly, what is more stupid: to call something which there is no evidence for completely implausible, or completely plausible?

This play-on-words type argument assumes that atheists don't acknowledge that a 100% certainty can't exist in real life, when actually it's just more convenient to say "there is no god" than to say "there is probably no god, but there might be a 0,00...00001% chance."

The same applies if you were to say "there are no goblins". What you mean is that there is no reason to believe goblins exist. But that doesn't make you as stupid as someone who claims he has a few of them at home and regularly talks to them.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #158 on: April 01, 2014, 07:14:01 PM »
Yes, that is what religious people love to tell each other: It is so hard what we're doing, we're so cool that we can do it nevertheless, and now we're better than other humanbeings (extra choirboy in heaven as a reward!)
There is a good reason I'm treading rather lightly on this thread; no one is going to convince anyone else.

However, with regard to the above quote.  It is not true; if a Christian says "we can do it nevertheless, and now we're better" etc. he or she is committing one of the worst sins in the book: pride.  A Christian would say no we can't do it, but we are trying out hardest, day by day, to do as best we can do.
Ian

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #159 on: April 01, 2014, 07:24:40 PM »
There is a good reason I'm treading rather lightly on this thread; no one is going to convince anyone else.

However, with regard to the above quote.  It is not true; if a Christian says "we can do it nevertheless, and now we're better" etc. he or she is committing one of the worst sins in the book: pride.  A Christian would say no we can't do it, but we are trying out hardest, day by day, to do as best we can do.

As for the Bible, a Christian can always quote some part of it to justify an action. It is one of those contradictions and counterevidence things i mentioned.
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #160 on: April 01, 2014, 07:29:10 PM »
No, it's not.
Firstly, pretty much anybody calling themselves an atheist actually means it as atheist agnostic and secondly, what is more stupid: to call something which there is no evidence for completely implausible, or completely plausible?

My point is that saying 'a belief is not true' is also a belief. So if you're more like a scientist, its better to say that we just dont know.
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Offline mikeowski

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #161 on: April 01, 2014, 07:54:52 PM »
My point is that saying 'a belief is not true' is also a belief. So if you're more like a scientist, its better to say that we just dont know.

Again, the argument of atheists is not actually that they know the truth with 100% certainy, but rather that since 'certain claims' are backed by zero evidence, there is no reason to believe them.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #162 on: April 01, 2014, 08:22:28 PM »
Again, the argument of atheists is not actually that they know the truth with 100% certainy, but rather that since 'certain claims' are backed by zero evidence, there is no reason to believe them.

a-theism doesnt mean 'without evidence', it means 'without (or no) god)'.
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Offline pianoplunker

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #163 on: April 01, 2014, 11:49:39 PM »
Yes, that is what religious people love to tell each other: It is so hard what we're doing, we're so cool that we can do it nevertheless, and now we're better than other humanbeings (extra choirboy in heaven as a reward!)

Actually, following some vague religion that most people around you believe is the easy way out. The stubborn ignoring of contradictions and counterevidence is THE biggest flaw of human psychic (and proof that the all-creating god was everythign but a genius): This is why people vote for Putin, Erdogan, Teaparty republicans and why religion has been for almost any war the number one tool to get enough supporters.

Ofcourse, atheism is just as silly as theism because you can never be sure of either, nor prove it. But it would be nice if more people realized that their belief in a religion or god is just that, a 'belief', and that it is therefor pointless trying to convince other people.

Btw i think the best thing for world piece would be to create a country especially for religious extremists who cant keep their opinions to themselves: Put all those terrorist muslims, colonizing jews, evangelist christians, teaparty members and other human beings who battle for the best spot in afterlife, in that country and provide them with weapons.
Maybe that would free up a bit more money for music education :)

That experiment has already been done and has not lead to world peace. It is called the U.S.


Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #164 on: April 02, 2014, 04:19:33 PM »
First, I claim that faith in the supernatural is not rational, even though it is widespread;  all religions contain elements that a neutral and critically thinking observer would reject.  Including mine.  And, especially yours.  <g>  (We all worship the same God, you in your way and I in His.)  
But we don't see god presenting his supernatural powers like a burning bush all day in public do we? So what reason is there to discuss his supernatural powers if it isn't even relevant to our worship?



You reply that God made you believe.  

That doesn't really respond to the problem, does it?  
What problem? You are the one making up problems lol.


Surely God can make us believe in anything, however irrational;  
Irrelevant

so God encouraging faith must be meaningless in reference to how rational that faith might be.
You are looking at this too simply which is not your fault that is how you are hardwired. A faith in God is not the only rationale, there is plenty of psychological data to draw from if it interests you about how a belief in God can reduce the amount of mental problems people can have. Many holocaust survivors managed to mentally deal with their plight through their faith. Quite a rational usage of God if you ask me. Whether you think it is or not is irrelevant, the fact is that it is very rational to billions of people.

Secondly, isn't the idea that God makes us believe an irrational idea in and of itself?  
To the non believer yes, of which constitute a minority of this world population. I rather let these minority be ignorant and enjoy their little world, it don't bother me one bit :)
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #165 on: April 02, 2014, 04:22:03 PM »
In that case God did choose to leave some of us without it. Interesting...
Yes you have hit on a wonderful point.
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Offline pianoplunker

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #166 on: April 03, 2014, 03:21:34 AM »
But we don't see god presenting his supernatural powers like a burning bush all day in public do we? So what reason is there to discuss his supernatural powers if it isn't even relevant to our worship?

Because it makes great movie material !   

Offline timothy42b

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #167 on: April 03, 2014, 12:07:54 PM »
Because it makes great movie material !   

No, I think l-i-w's point in bringing up the burning bush is that it is not irrational to believe in the supernatural because it never has any interaction or evidence in the natural world anyway.

Now if we DID see burning bushes and other miracles on a regular basis, THEN it would be irrational to believe in God.  But since we don't see miracles, God must exist. 

Typical apologist mental gymnastics.  I'm just not flexible enough to be able to follow it.
Tim

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #168 on: April 04, 2014, 06:34:33 AM »
That experiment has already been done and has not lead to world peace. It is called the U.S.


The gun part has been complied yes, they just forgot about the non-christian religions ;)
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Offline future_maestro

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Re: I HAVE A FRIEND WHO'S TRYING TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY HELPPP...!!!
«Reply #169 on: April 25, 2014, 10:08:10 PM »
This is an extremely confrontational post. Everyone has their own beliefs, and nothing that you can say on a forum is going to get them to change.

Solve the problem yourself, and don't post this stuff anymore.
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to play without passion is inexcusable."
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