Octave tremolos in Pathetique Sonata.

[lance132]

No matter what I do im just not able to play the octave tremolos in the pathetique sonata fast enough. It's not that i get too tired. i just cant play it fast enough. My right hand can do it no problem. I'm able to rotate my wrists and Relax, but it seems that my wrist just doesnt twitch or rotate fast enough.

What can I do to change this?
Any advice is aprecciated.

[j_menz]

Don't think of them as tremolos, and don't try and play them as such.  Treat them as notes that just happen to be an octave apart.

More concretely, use your fingers and your wrist rotation only for support, not your wrist to play it with rigid fingers.

[bencollisonmusic]

Hello,

Just try to play them as fast ass you can. But make sure you know where the notes line up with the beat and the other hand. The octaves are not the melody so they also don't have to come out as much.

Though try playing with your fingers. Just play the octaves on beat and then do the same but do the tremolos. I'm dealing with this same situation while working on Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 3. Just block the chords and then play each note in the chords (in your case would be the tremolo).

Hope this helps. Feel free to message me if you have any questions.

-Benjamin Collison

[faulty_damper]

OP, are you co-contracting?  That's what it sounds like because you're attempting them too fast that your muscles aren't coordinated, hence the co-contractioin.  If so, then coordination is the result of slower practice, so practice them slower than you are where you aren't co-contracting.

[bencollisonmusic]

I agree with Faulty. First you want to practice slowly so you can actually feel the beat and the contrast between the right and left hand. Just practice slowly for a while and your hands should naturally be able to play it faster without too much mental concentration. Again the octaves are not the melody so just play them light and short.

Hope that helps

-Benjamin Collison

[mysterium]

You can practise it by playing only the lower octave note, the one on the beat, together with your right hand. Then you add the off beat note while still beeing focused on getting the low one right. Then your hands will be in time.

When you play at full speed later, the hand movement should be "shaking". You can practise that without the piano just to get the right feeling

[swagmaster420x]

meh when i practiced i was like i dont feel like changing my muscle movements for more efficiency so i kept playing it the way i did while trying constantly to get it faster. it worked,. although thats probably bad for you, lol.

[beethoven ii]

I'm finding these octave tremolos troublesome as well , and the posts from mysterium (though I think your hand shouldn't shake much - it wastes valuable energy) and swagmaster  have helped quite a bit with developing speed.However, when I play it faster I am increasingly faced with the common issue : I get tired out, especially in the extended tremolo at the start of the recapitulation. Anybody have advice to deal with this?

[beethoven_ii]

brandon (whoever you are) if you are reading this, something weird happened and our accounts got switched, probably something to do with our similar usernames.Sorry for posting with yours, I have no idea how it happened.

[indianajo]

I've been practicing the octave tremelos (written as 64ths) In Lingua Mortua for three years.  I've built them up gradually to at least 32's .  I think I'm doing eight per quarter note in the other hand.  64ths would be sixteen.
I'm both rotating the wrist a little and wiggling fingers one and five, sounds like the advice above.  Wrist is straight to the forearm.  
This speed of learning doesn't line up with the conservatories piece a month or whatever miracles they require of the students, but my progress is positive.  So be patient, if I can do it, you can.  I'm age 63.  
It takes a lot of strength, and while I don't slow down at the end, I do miss a few notes after I am tired.  
Take heart, if you get the strength to do this on Pathetique, you have the most difficult part of another piece down already.  

[nyiregyhazi]

I've been practicing the octave tremelos (written as 64ths) In Lingua Mortua for three years.  I've built them up gradually to at least 32's .  I think I'm doing six per quarter note in the other hand.  64ths would be eight.
I'm both rotating the wrist a little and wiggling fingers one and five, sounds like the advice above.  Wrist is straight to the forearm. 
This speed of learning doesn't line up with the conservatories piece a month or whatever miracles they require of the students, but my progress is positive.  So be patient, if I can do it, you can.  I'm age 63. 
It takes a lot of strength, and while I don't slow down at the end, I do miss a few notes after I am tired. 
Take heart, if you get the strength to do this on Pathetique, you have the most difficult part of another piece down already. 

You really don't need to consistently measure the tremolos in Mussorgsky. It's fine to do so some of the time, but the effect is actually far better when you're willing to slow down or speed up some of the time. It's not very atmospheric to keep that style of tremolo fully rhythmic and measured, compared to what is possible from varying the speed according to the intensity of the moment. It's like a string tremolo. The pathetique is a whole different kettle of fish and demands consistent and specific rhythm.

[mysterium]

(though I think your hand shouldn't shake much - it wastes valuable energy)

I was a bit unclear, I dont mean you should shake your hand with big movements, but rather have the feeling of shaking

About getting tired - try to have no tension, dont strain your hand in order to play faster. Otherwise I think it is a lot about training you stamina, just watch out so you dont hurt your wrist - I've learned my lesson there by playing to much Beethoven! 

[renzoramirez]

laterzzzzzz joake

[pytheamateur]

One approach is to start by playing the tremolos with 2 hands instead of 1.  For example, let your left index finger play the bottom note of the tremolo and your right index finger play the top note.  You should find it much easier than playing it with 1 hand.  Play it several times, in tempo, until you have found a sound that you are happy with.  After that you can go back to practising with your left hand.

The rationale behind this approach is that once you have a clear picture in your mind of how you would like something to sound like, your brain will instruct your arms/hands/finger to play it so as to achieve that sound; you don't need to worry consciously about the precise details of how your left hand is moving to achieve that sound.  In other words, according to this approach, all you need to know is "what" you want something to sound like, not "how" to achieve that with your arms/hands/fingers: once you have the "what", the "how" will take care of itself.

I know this approach runs counter to the beliefs of many pianists/pedagogues.  Just give it a try and see if it works for your.  You can use it for any passages which present a technical problem.  Start playing it with 2 hands.

[nyiregyhazi]

One approach is to start by playing the tremolos with 2 hands instead of 1.  For example, let your left index finger play the bottom note of the tremolo and your right index finger play the top note.  You should find it much easier than playing it with 1 hand.  Play it several times, in tempo, until you have found a sound that you are happy with.  After that you can go back to practising with your left hand.

The rationale behind this approach is that once you have a clear picture in your mind of how you would like something to sound like, your brain will instruct your arms/hands/finger to play it so as to achieve that sound; you don't need to worry consciously about the precise details of how your left hand is moving to achieve that sound.  In other words, according to this approach, all you need to know is "what" you want something to sound like, not "how" to achieve that with your arms/hands/fingers: once you have the "what", the "how" will take care of itself.

I know this approach runs counter to the beliefs of many pianists/pedagogues.  Just give it a try and see if it works for your.  You can use it for any passages which present a technical problem.  Start playing it with 2 hands.

That's often a worthy approach (although it never solved any technical problems for me- it reminded me what I couldn't do. The problem here is that it's harder to get the right sound with two hands X not easier. So it simply won't help with the sound image, never mind the technical side of achieving it.

[perfect_playing]

I think you need a balance between how much wrist and fingers you use. You should do small wrist rotations and probably have a slight emphasis on the notes coinciding at the pulses.

[rmbarbosa]

In "Fundamentals of piano practice, Chuan Chang explains how to solve this problem with parallel set exercises.
You may wish to have a look (Pg.134)
Best wishes